Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Whoom

New Player Gameplay Loop

Recommended Posts

I just recently (~1 week ago) got into Crowfall for the first time.  After playing it for a bit I find that playing the game at first has essentially no engaging gameplay loop at all.  In fact, the nature of the system effectively encourages me NOT to play for a while.  Here is what I mean:

* I get on for the first time and I don't have any weapons/armor/tools

* I can craft only the basics.  Great!  Not exciting, but doable, I get myself some basic tools some basic armor a weapon, now I am good to go.

* Now I go out to find PvP.  Or maybe some boars.  Or maybe I gather some resources.

Only, what do I do now?  I won't be able to craft anything else for days and days.  PvP turns out to be so massively unbalanced against new players that I die very, very fast - clearly needing better gear and better skills having been trained.  BUT... the solution to this is just to go away for days at a time - since I can't craft anything better since I don't have the skills.  I can't gather anything better, since I don't have the skills.  

It seems to me that this actively discouraging people to play - having very little low-level growth for days is way out of balance.   There needs to be some early recipes or early gear growth that allows people logging in on day 1 (and day 2 and day 3 etc...) to have valid, obtainable goals that keep them in the game.  Otherwise many people will likely bail, and not come back.  

Purely passive skill growth worked ok in EVE - however there are early game, short term goals (quests?) that new players can achieve and feel that their character is growing - I just don't see any evidence of that here right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you can do days of gathering basic resources to make replacement weapons and armor when you die. and/or

Sandbox game, find some people and go gank people

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I know you can.  But.... why?  There is nothing to gather it -for-.  The recipes don't take enough.  And if I just log out for a week I can gather it tons faster.   It is not very fulfilling to do something I can later do better, without it actually advancing me at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Whoom said:

Yes, I know you can.  But.... why?

The game isn't finished. Right now it feels efficient to wait until you are fully trained to gather/craft/fight because there is nothing worth fighting for. If you were fighting over territory, or to win a campaign, then logging out and waiting would no longer seem like a good strategy.


IhhQKY6.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is really not even a game yet....Test stuff, break some stuff and be active in bug reporting.  There is a lot of depth to the systems.  The deeper you dig into the various different layers of the systems, you realize everything underneath is woven together to form one cohesive vision.

Trying to play Crowfall like a game at this stage of development may sour you on it.  Testing is not for everyone and that is OK...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Other than pvp, the only things worth doing as a new player is gathering the resources from the POIs in the middle of the map and making friends with crafters in your faction. The materials from POIs can be used to make quality gear and if you befriend crafters they can help you make the gear. I was able to get advanced gear in under a week because of these things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Divorce yourself from the idea of crafting all of your own gear. You won't be able to, and neither will anyone else. Skills, in general, are of minimal importance compared with gear, and even garbage tier advanced gear (the type made with poor/common resources that experienced harvesters and gatherers literally throw away or turn in to bulk parcel/building mats) is easily competitive.

What you're missing is a working economy where the crafter is encouraged to make that basic gear in large volumes by using blueprints, and selling it via vendors. As of 5.5. crafters need a lot of dust for final combines, and a lot of gold to upkeep their vendors. The numbers are still being tweaked but a new player with just a basic ability to kill mobs and throw on a basic dust potion and basic harvesting disciplines has enough earning power to easily afford such gear.

Basic and intermediate gear is not intended to be competitive because low level crafters and harvesters need a customer base.

What you're expressing now is a symptom of missing economic systems that are just now starting to go online on test. Your initial goals will move from making intermediate gear to getting enough gold from farming, dust sales, or robbing other newbies to buy cheap crafted gear. Once you have a basic set of white crafted gear you're in "the loop" and will more than likely never go back to "tutorial gear" ever again unless you decide to play a no-import campaign where everyone starts with nothing the same as you. From there its a matter of resource management, making sure you can replace that white gear and slowly moving up to being able to reliably provide yourself with better gear through the course of social, PvE, gathering, and resourcing efficiency. You might make some parts of your own gear, but like most players you're going to have to trade either with merchant players or guildmates to fully equip yourself, and will likely do so for the entirety of the time you play crowfall because that's the whole point of the time based training model.

When I started I was in basics. Then I was in whites. Now I'm in blues or greens the majority of the time. Occasionally I'll get a nicer item made but its hard even for really experienced gatherers to get enough epic or legendary mats in bulk to provide most people with full sets of it In general even the wealthier players you see are running around in mostly blues with maybe a couple epic/legendary pieces whenever they happen to have enough mats to make them.


PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it is funny how pretty much anyone new is stating this. (i did as well)

 

Most People tell you either that the game is pre-Alpha so that is is entitled to be bad in certain Areas or they will tell you that you Need to join a guild (for a pre-Apha game, as if i don't have anything else to spend time on).

Fact is (and i will Keep on posting on that) the experience for new Players the way it is now is just one of the worst i have ever experienced (no matter which stage of the game).

And all the pople who spent tons of time to get past that will mostly just wave your concerns away.

It is the WORST i have ever experienced. Just to say that again. You are right. There is nothing left to do. I would recommend you to log in every two days or so and do the mastery trees so you can start doing some actual things after like 3 or 4 weeks.

Or go and look for a guild. What Pope Urban said is right. But i think that most of the People fail to realise that this still will drive away most of the Players.

Being completely dependent on other People gifting you things to get started at all is not a healthy solution. Because most People will stay away from games where they have to beg for Equipment.

Edited by Bezoedelaar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Bezoedelaar said:

 most People will stay away from games where they have to beg for Equipment.

This is why significant work is being done to create an economy where you can buy that equipment quickly, cheaply, and easily, and by doing so also provide a way for new players trying to make equipment or gather materials for a living a way to buy things they need as well.

You shouldn't be begging. You should be buying. You should have scores of people willing to sell you things, and multiple ways to get the currency or materials they want from you, and you should be able to trade your stuff for their stuff 24 hours a day at their NPC vendors whether they are online or not. The problem we have at the moment is that actually taking your stuff and giving you their stuff is annoying because the only method is direct trade and all crafting has to basically be done from scratch one item at a time with no premade components because they don't stack, and it takes a long time and multiple crafters to make most items from scratch. The vendors are in in 5.5 and they work well (though they're currently too expensive to upkeep but I'm guessing the upkeep values are not final) and once that's settled we're only missing the factories to allow of efficient storage and production of crates of items so crafting multiples is something crafters are more willing to do because it takes less time, friends online, and bank space.

If the lack of these systems creates a frustrating experience, people should definitely just check back later when these systems are online. You're right. The player without a guild is ill served by the current economic tools. It is a huge pain to get gear if you don't know a crafter. When these systems are in place, you'll find that the "player made everything" model works just fine, and knowing a crafter will drop from a "need" to a "perk" that simply lets you more easily get custom stuff made or just get discounts.

Edited by PopeUrban

PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Bezoedelaar said:

Fact is (and i will Keep on posting on that) the experience for new Players the way it is now is just one of the worst i have ever experienced (no matter which stage of the game).

That might even be true, because first of all, there is no new player experience, every player is just thrown into the test environment and has to figure it out for themselves. Tutorials and everything will probably be coming at some point, and the new player experience will get better. 

 

The other thing, and that's a design decision I don't agree with, is that crafting professions are gated behind at least multiple days of training. While such a system works for the harvesting professions, where each tree allows you to specialize further into a certain type of harvesting, it doesn't work for crafting, where you either can craft or you don't. The crafting would get a lot better, if they would get rid of the basic crafting requirement.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎19‎.‎03‎.‎2018 at 12:32 PM, XpCjU said:

That might even be true, because first of all, there is no new player experience, every player is just thrown into the test environment and has to figure it out for themselves. Tutorials and everything will probably be coming at some point, and the new player experience will get better. 

 

The other thing, and that's a design decision I don't agree with, is that crafting professions are gated behind at least multiple days of training. While such a system works for the harvesting professions, where each tree allows you to specialize further into a certain type of harvesting, it doesn't work for crafting, where you either can craft or you don't. The crafting would get a lot better, if they would get rid of the basic crafting requirement.  

And this whole gated behind several days of waiting is the Thing that i think, regardless of the state of the game, is really bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/19/2018 at 7:24 AM, PopeUrban said:

If the lack of these systems creates a frustrating experience, people should definitely just check back later when these systems are online. You're right. The player without a guild is ill served by the current economic tools. It is a huge pain to get gear if you don't know a crafter. When these systems are in place, you'll find that the "player made everything" model works just fine, and knowing a crafter will drop from a "need" to a "perk" that simply lets you more easily get custom stuff made or just get discounts.

I don't think it is just the lack of these systems that creates a frustrating experience.  There are many questions that arise upon starting and are essentially unanswerable without either knowing someone, or immediately finding a group or nice person to help:

* Which of these skill trees are useful to train first?
                    I still have no clue - have been told multiple different things, and no amount of google-fu really helps

* What do the crafting trees do? 

                   (A week in, and I am still unsure how to just make axes or whatever that aren't completely crap - I have yet to understand what research points are though I had to devote about 1 day of training time to researching them)

* How do I even -get- currency to buy anything?  (took me 2 days to find the stupid boars - I was looking in the wrong place)
                 I guess I could just endlessly knock down trees or break rocks.  But, most people buying this game will expect a bit more from a week of game play I suspect

I'm not saying that it is not going to bring things in that help.  However, retaining people early is one of the only ways a game like this can grow, and as brutal and bumpy as the start of the game is right now (and even with the systems you discuss, I don't see that changing it in a major way) it is going to need to focus on what is the expected gameplay for someone for the first 4 hours, 4 days etc...  

The other point I'll make is that my time is valuable to me (as I suspect everyone's is).  Grinding in some games is used to advance capabilities so that you have to grind less later.  Right now in crowfall, grinding at the beginning is massively inefficient time-wise.  Just waiting 2 weeks to start grinding actually makes gathering go way, way faster.  This, to me, is a broken mechanic.    Why waste 6 hours grinding now to be able to buy those weapons when I could wait two weeks, and just grind 2 hours for the same thing?   The whole idea of this sort of thing in most games is the fulfillment loop of watching bars fill up or whatever.  That doesn't exist here, so the grinding is just that much more painful.

Edited by Whoom
Stupid accidental save

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/19/2018 at 7:24 AM, PopeUrban said:

This is why significant work is being done to create an economy where you can buy that equipment quickly, cheaply, and easily, and by doing so also provide a way for new players trying to make equipment or gather materials for a living a way to buy things they need as well.

You shouldn't be begging. You should be buying. You should have scores of people willing to sell you things, and multiple ways to get the currency or materials they want from you, and you should be able to trade your stuff for their stuff 24 hours a day at their NPC vendors whether they are online or not. The problem we have at the moment is that actually taking your stuff and giving you their stuff is annoying because the only method is direct trade and all crafting has to basically be done from scratch one item at a time with no premade components because they don't stack, and it takes a long time and multiple crafters to make most items from scratch. The vendors are in in 5.5 and they work well (though they're currently too expensive to upkeep but I'm guessing the upkeep values are not final) and once that's settled we're only missing the factories to allow of efficient storage and production of crates of items so crafting multiples is something crafters are more willing to do because it takes less time, friends online, and bank space.

If the lack of these systems creates a frustrating experience, people should definitely just check back later when these systems are online. You're right. The player without a guild is ill served by the current economic tools. It is a huge pain to get gear if you don't know a crafter. When these systems are in place, you'll find that the "player made everything" model works just fine, and knowing a crafter will drop from a "need" to a "perk" that simply lets you more easily get custom stuff made or just get discounts.

Great post. I will say though, I can see this being the case moreso in the Faction Rule Sets. In the "Dregs" or non faction/FFA (limitedd to zero imports), most guilds will keep their resources in house in order to win/survive. I have a hard time seeing merchant guilds going to that style of campaign and an even harder time seeing guilds sell to each other unless there is an alliance.


.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Armegeddon said:

Great post. I will say though, I can see this being the case moreso in the Faction Rule Sets. In the "Dregs" or non faction/FFA (limitedd to zero imports), most guilds will keep their resources in house in order to win/survive. I have a hard time seeing merchant guilds going to that style of campaign and an even harder time seeing guilds sell to each other unless there is an alliance.

Its a non-issue outside of faction campaigns IMO. If you get upset you can't function without a guild in a campaign type clearly labeled "guild versus guild" that's really not the game's fault.

As for Whoom's post:

You are absolutely correct. There is a staggering lack of tutorialization, tooltips, or detailed information and the game does not explain itself well. ACE expanded on this point before, and the explanation might be unsatisfactory to someone looking to play a fully featured product but the gist of it is that sytems are changing rapidly and certain parts of certain systems aren't even designed. For this reason it is a net loss to invest time and effort in to new player and tutorial features because those features may very well change as a result of this process. If you are confused but willing to put up with an unfinished product with poor new player accessibility you are in the right place to find answers to your questions. However, if you are confused and do not feel that and unfinished shell of a game with literally more than half of the game is not worth your time, you should return later when it is more complete.

I was a Kickstarter backer and had access to very early testing before even persistant servers were online and before there were textures on the buildings. I didn't find the scheduled tests of the early combat system or siege systems fun, so I simply didn't play them. I checked back occasionally to see if the game was a bit further along and right around 5.3 I started enjoying myself and feeling enough of the pieces come together to log in regularly.

You are under no obligation to log in to something that doesn't explain itself to you if you need a curated new player experience to become comfortable with the game. Your feedback and the feedback of a lot of new people is extremely valuable even if you only say "I won't be logging in for several months and here is why"

As for grinding being "broken" I disagree. I don't play MMOs to fill bars. I play them to collect loot. I do not at all enjoy doing a repetitive task specifically to fill up a bar. I appreciate the time based skill system here for the same reason I appreciated it in EVE. When I log in I can do whatever I want to, and I train skills based upon what I want to do in the future. My rewards for doing things have intrinsic value that I can turn directly in to power for myself or my friends in the form of gear or instant XP.

This is simply a matte  of taster. The point of a time based system is that you don't have to grind to fill a meter, and in stead you simply go about whatever activity you find appealing or economically necessary in stead of whatever activity you "have" to do. That said, this isn't an instant gratification kind of game. Its going to suck one way or another for new players because new players are broke, and the point of the game is gathering wealth both to win campaigns and as the reward for doing so because wealth is power. The skill trees are a mechanism to ensure that players aren't so efficient at creating wealth that they don't need one another.

Edited by PopeUrban
Added a bit after thinking about it.

PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/19/2018 at 7:32 AM, XpCjU said:

That might even be true, because first of all, there is no new player experience, every player is just thrown into the test environment and has to figure it out for themselves. Tutorials and everything will probably be coming at some point, and the new player experience will get better. 

 

The other thing, and that's a design decision I don't agree with, is that crafting professions are gated behind at least multiple days of training. While such a system works for the harvesting professions, where each tree allows you to specialize further into a certain type of harvesting, it doesn't work for crafting, where you either can craft or you don't. The crafting would get a lot better, if they would get rid of the basic crafting requirement.  

This is basically what they started doing in 5.5

A brand new character can craft brand new character tier:

Intermediate Weapons (For fighting)

Intermediate Armor (For fighting)

Entry level minor harvesting disc. (For gathering dust, used in all intermediate AND advanced crafting, including crafting other disciplines)

Entry level alchemy (To create a potion with which to harvest dust)

Intermediate Tools (+10 tools for harvesting low level real resources to easily acquire common/green mats)

Your basic flow right now in 5.5 is basically:

Spawn.

Spend ten minutes making basic tools to make a basic weapon. Realize you can't make armor.

Leave spawn and go looking for a fort to make armor in. Kill mobs on the way. Skin for leather.

Arrive at fort, fight over it, claim it.

Use leather to create armor OR create dust accelerators to get enough dust to finish armor.

Take weapon/armor to zombie/spider canyons and loot mobs for valuable parts (zombies) or valuable discs, xp items, and leather (spiders)

get ganked, get mad, get in drama, finish drama, go back to farming

Take gold to EK vendors, buy gear from crafters.

Now you have gear and can live your dreams.


PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Whoom said:

I don't think it is just the lack of these systems that creates a frustrating experience.  There are many questions that arise upon starting and are essentially unanswerable without either knowing someone, or immediately finding a group or nice person to help:

* Which of these skill trees are useful to train first?
                    I still have no clue - have been told multiple different things, and no amount of google-fu really helps

* What do the crafting trees do? 

                   (A week in, and I am still unsure how to just make axes or whatever that aren't completely crap - I have yet to understand what research points are though I had to devote about 1 day of training time to researching them)

* How do I even -get- currency to buy anything?  (took me 2 days to find the stupid boars - I was looking in the wrong place)
                 I guess I could just endlessly knock down trees or break rocks.  But, most people buying this game will expect a bit more from a week of game play I suspect

I'm not saying that it is not going to bring things in that help.  However, retaining people early is one of the only ways a game like this can grow, and as brutal and bumpy as the start of the game is right now (and even with the systems you discuss, I don't see that changing it in a major way) it is going to need to focus on what is the expected gameplay for someone for the first 4 hours, 4 days etc...  

The other point I'll make is that my time is valuable to me (as I suspect everyone's is).  Grinding in some games is used to advance capabilities so that you have to grind less later.  Right now in crowfall, grinding at the beginning is massively inefficient time-wise.  Just waiting 2 weeks to start grinding actually makes gathering go way, way faster.  This, to me, is a broken mechanic.    Why waste 6 hours grinding now to be able to buy those weapons when I could wait two weeks, and just grind 2 hours for the same thing?   The whole idea of this sort of thing in most games is the fulfillment loop of watching bars fill up or whatever.  That doesn't exist here, so the grinding is just that much more painful.

* Which of these skill trees are useful to train first?

It depends on what you want to do, but likely the first thing you should do is improve your ability to harvest dust, since dust is required for everything except basic gear. There are several things you can do to improve your dust harvesting:

  1. Craft the Ethereal Sight discipline (5% increased chance to get dust)
  2. Craft Plethora of Dust potions (5% increased chance to get dust)
  3. Train in the Exploration Basics tree

The discipline and the potions help, but the training is where you will see the biggest difference, as you can get the Plethora of Dust: Basic Resources skill, which gives another 5% chance to get dust on top of what you get from the discipline and the potions. You also can get the Plentiful Resources skills for Cobblestone, Knotwood and/or Slag. These skills raise your plentiful resource stat for that resource type by 1, which means you get more stuff from each node.

It will probably be more difficult in the future to craft the Logger, Miner and Quarryman disciplines, but right now they are easy to make and will give you another +1 to plentiful for the chosen resource, and will give you +.5 harvesting pips. 

* What do the crafting trees do?

There are 3 stats that you care about for crafting:

  1. Assembly - This determines your chance at successfully combining the item. Results are Flawed, Successful and Amazing and will affect the quality level of the item.
  2. Experimentation - This determines you chance at successfully experimenting on an item. There are a range of outcomes from Critical Failure up to Amazing. The better your result, the more the stats will increase on the item.
  3. Experimentation Points - This determines how many experimentation chances you get. Using 1 point at a time will limit your risk, resulting in a better chance for a higher result. If you risk half of your available points, raising the risk factor to 50% or higher, you will lower your chances of getting a higher result, but you will get a bonus for each point. So if you have for example 6 experimentation points, risk 3 of them on the first experimentation roll, and get an amazing success, you will have a better result than if you had used those points one at a time and got an amazing on each.

Basic Crafting Stats contribute to Advanced Crafting Stats in a 5/1 ratio. So if you have 20 in Basic Crafting Assembly, that will add 4 to the Assembly stat for all of the advanced professions (Runemaking, Blacksmithing, etc.).

* How do I even -get- currency to buy anything?  (took me 2 days to find the stupid boars - I was looking in the wrong place)

Dust is more of a currency right now than gold, but you have to understand that the game is still in pre-alpha. The economy barely exists at this point. The vendors have only be added to Test so far. There aren't enough people and there aren't enough goods being sold.

We are testing the game. The economic game loop is part of what we are testing right now. It's going to take some time for things to get going with this small of a population. At launch, there will be a lot more people and therefore a lot more opportunities to buy and sell. I'm sure they will also make many changes between now and then to ensure that the economy gets going quickly, and to ensure that players can get up to speed in relatively short order.

There are a lot of things that haven't been added to the game yet and a lot of things that still need tweaking and polishing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello, I bought a pack months ago, but did not play yet, because Centauress is not available. But hearing the OP, that reminds me much of Darkfall *shudders* where you get griefed as soon as you leave a city. Are there also save spots/opportunities to enjoy the world first without getting griefed all times by people who do not care about others having fun?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lamiosa said:

Hello, I bought a pack months ago, but did not play yet, because Centauress is not available. But hearing the OP, that reminds me much of Darkfall *shudders* where you get griefed as soon as you leave a city. Are there also save spots/opportunities to enjoy the world first without getting griefed all times by people who do not care about others having fun?

Tere is the Faction beach head... that is it. If you are out in the world, you are fair game. Run with company.


.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Armegeddon said:

Tere is the Faction beach head... that is it. If you are out in the world, you are fair game. Run with company.

Ok, thanks for the information. I hope the Devs from Crowfall will rather learn from Ultima online than from Darkfall, putting in some safezones, or save worlds (Felucca/Trammel). At least UO still is there today, while Darkfall is dead. Having open PvP everywhere needs either protective communities, where social people get into, or will fall to the griefers, where they are alone in the end...till the end. However some griefers would say "then go, we don't need carebears", but you won't get a solid playerbase with just griefers, it is better to have stable fair PvP and possibility to enjoy game without getting killed everytime you respawn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...