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Helix

Is crowfall fundamentally boring?

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Is crowfall boring?

Does it feel like a tedious chore?

Is the amount of time investment to get ready to the "juicy" parts of crowfall far too much?

Does harvesting and crafting suck?

Should there be less of a time investment in needing to gather? Should gear be faster to acquire? (At least the lower tiers: white, green).

Does combat feel far too basic?

Is skill training boring?

IMO, yes to all of the above (excluding crafting, which I actually think is quite good, just not the amount of mats required to craft the lowest tier of armor), and with soft launch supposedly this year I can see the game heading to a reckoning of sorts (word on the streets already is extremely critical if not down right negative).

Crowfall is in an extremely weird place. It's a heavily focused pvp game that's also supposedly trying to reach across the "aisle" and ensnare those mindcraft/landmark type players that like to run around 8 hours a day hitting rocks and building stuff. Unfortunately for those players, the vast majority of people who play crowfall are going to be stone cold killers that only want to gank and pillage. All their efforts will be for not, and getting repeatedly ganked will surely drive these type of players away. These two groups are vast different, and fairly incompatible. I fear the game will end up with two types of disillusioned players. The harvesters that just want to go out and hit rocks only to get killed, and the killers that are forced to go out and hit rocks because there aren't enough people who want to harvest (either because they've been driven away from the game, or because there simply isn't enough in the first place). The crafters will suffer because they won't have the mats required to manufacture armor and provide for the masses, so they too will be forced in to the tedious chore of having to harvest.

This isn't too far off from where we are now. 

I've seen the game regress a little bit more and more in the fun factor with the increasing emphasis on harvesting. I've harvested in other games, but it's different with crowfall. It's literally the most mind-numbing dull experience I've ever experienced in a video game. I'm not sure how they can improve it either besides drastically increasing the mats you receive and reducing the amount of time and effort necessary to acquire those mats and get your gear so you can actually "start" playing. Harvesting is simply not fun, yet the majority of players are forced to do it, and it eventually ends up monopolizing a large percentage of your play time in crowfall. 

I'm worried about the game. Everyone I've tried to sell on the idea has pretty much shrugged it off once I started talking about how harvesting and crafting is so vital to your character progression. It's not like gear isn't important, and the variance between gear statistically is significant.

It's not just the harvesting that's boring. It's the combat and class design too.

Combat and class design feels extremely sterile and one-dimensional. Combat literally revolves around spamming LMB, attacks are weightless and the base ability kits of most of the classes feel far too bland and "safe". Combat and class design is in a desperate need of an overhaul; doubtful considering what's already on the devs plate and a supposed soft launch deadline.

I'm interested in what others thing, I'm already readily anticipating the "this is a test, not the game" and "there is no game loop yet" arguments. Valid perhaps, but I think there is enough "game" here to at least see what direction they're going.

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Can't actually answer with first hand knowledge. Last time I played it was when active harvesting was first introduced, and frankly it didn't do enough for me at the time to reduce the feeling of grind.  Resources were too slow to come by, and everything took too long to happen, and I was hopping ACE would address that issue rather than ratchet up the requirements grind as it appears they have.

I've been putting my game time (180+hrs) into PUBG for the last couple of months because I didn't want to burn out on CF before it was even launched. I supposed that could say something about the current state of the game, that even though I have way more financial interest in this game, I play another, faster game with no rewards, for fun.

 

On the plus side I think the fixes are pretty easy.  Simply bump all the resource nodes production when harvesting, bridge the gap and allow conversion of POI hippo resources and harvested in both directions, and rely on/tune the the building requirements to eat surplus as it happens, and I think the resource/item grind issue will largely resolve.

If ACE starts to think of buildings the same way that EvE thinks of large ships like Titans, and the common players gear like small cheap ships, I think they will be able to tone down the sense of grind without compromising the economy.  

It's the attempt to make what is essentially disposable gear feel like it's special and worth getting, that is causing the largest amount of risk/reward disconnect. 

If I have to buy a paper plate, it better not cost the same as fine china, and CF is trying to make everything feel and cost like it's fine china, even when it's mostly paper plates.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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4 minutes ago, Helix said:

Is crowfall boring?

Does it feel like a tedious chore?

Is the amount of time investment to get ready to the "juicy" parts of crowfall far too much?

Does harvesting and crafting suck?

Should there be less of a time investment in needing to gather? Should gear be faster to acquire? (At least the lower tiers: white, green).

Does combat feel far too basic?

Is skill training boring?

 

  1. some aspects are boring, but I feel it complex enough for me to do what is "fun" for me and to farm out to other players what is not "fun" to me.
  2. same answer as 1
  3. Depending on what you are calling the "juicy parts"  I guess this is dependent on the person playing.  What is Juicy for me may not be fore you.  Again, refer to first answer.  But, for a minute lets assume your talking "PvP" as the juicy part.  Everyone will be at the same level in the beginning.  If you enjoy "PvP, what difference does it make if you engage in it with the bow from hell or a fairy tale bow.  The pvp will be the same end result for the encounter at day one as it will be day 100.  Someone will win and someone will die.
  4. Again, I personally like harvesting and crafting and if the people who I play with want me harvesting and crafting, they will protect me and do pvp why i am doing so.  If not, they will not have materials to progress in the game......  I like a hard crafting system and everyone who starts day one can be on same level.
  5.  Combat is a little slower then other games, I think people mistake this for "basic"  I have seen very few people including myself who has taken any class,-race combo to its fullest potential yet.  There are a few but they are few and far between.  Every class has different tech and it is quite complicated to the average gamer.  It not like you load your bar up and face-roll 25 buttons like you do in wow.
  6. NO, skill training is not boring BUT, waiting for it is.  On a positive note, it requires little effort to do.  Hit a few buttons and go pvp or farm mats for a bit.

The biggest fear I have is crowfall will make game to easy and people will blow through the content before the dev's can produce more.  This is when people quit and move on.  I like passive training so we don't lose people who have more of a life then I do and can't play as much.

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1 hour ago, Helix said:

Is crowfall boring?

Partwise yes, but mainly because the game is player driven and we are still missing alot of core elements. Also there are alot of players arround that have nice ideas but Crowfall has no time ;). So they listen only partwise, which lowers also the motivation to play crowfall. But I think most of the players are just tired, which leads to be bored.

1 hour ago, Helix said:

Does it feel like a tedious chore?

No, because  i want to test and help Crowfall so reasearching and testing stuff for the sucess ;) For players some players it might be just collecting stuff for nothing and that takes sooooo long.

1 hour ago, Helix said:

Is the amount of time investment to get ready to the "juicy" parts of crowfall far too much?

No i love the dedicated endgame, but basic fights sucks ...

 

1 hour ago, Helix said:

Should there be less of a time investment in needing to gather? Should gear be faster to acquire? (At least the lower tiers: white, green).

Like my awenser round about 8 month ago nope :) when u asked a similar question.
maybe leather and the mothernode ressources are too time consuming. (because they changed)

1 hour ago, Helix said:

Does combat feel far too basic?

YES it is poor game mechanics and no balance leads to boring pvp

 

After all im still happy with crowfall but looking at the past there are some changes which lead to some boring stuff.
Specially the Class Race split was just a waste of time ...
I was thinking Crowfall is a game where i can create my own character which fits to my playstyle ... missing that part alot

 

Edited by DravoiX

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It takes too long, and requires too many people to get a character ready to fight.  Not every one has an account for everything, or a friend with every crafter.  On top of that if you have your own blacksmith you have to find a leather worker or woodworker to help you make anything.  You should not need three characters and four trade skills to make armor. (Miner/Skinner Blacksmith/leather worker)  

This type of scale will run a lot of people off. Especially when it will get destroyed in one good day of fighting.  Any new player without a good guild supporting him would just quit. And that is not even including the hours it takes at each step, gathering, crafting, switching accounts, waiting at loading screens, or gathering to make gathering items. Bleh

Edited by scipio

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1 hour ago, Helix said:

Crowfall is in an extremely weird place. It's a heavily focused pvp game that's also supposedly trying to reach across the "aisle" and ensnare those mindcraft/landmark type players that like to run around 8 hours a day hitting rocks and building stuff. Unfortunately for those players, the vast majority of people who play crowfall are going to be stone cold killers that only want to gank and pillage. All their efforts will be for not, and getting repeatedly ganked will surely drive these type of players away. These two groups are vast different, and fairly incompatible. I fear the game will end up with two types of disillusioned players. The harvesters that just want to go out and hit rocks only to get killed, and the killers that are forced to go out and hit rocks because there aren't enough people who want to harvest (either because they've been driven away from the game, or because there simply isn't enough in the first place). The crafters will suffer because they won't have the mats required to manufacture armor and provide for the masses, so they too will be forced in to the tedious chore of having to harvest.

I think these systems create synergy. We fight over the harvesting resources. We fight over the locations where crafting can be done. We protect harvesters and crafters from getting repeatedly ganked by PvPing alongside them.

People that want to go it alone will have an uphill struggle, but that is a necessary side effect of create a sandbox pvp game with a robust economy.

Edited by Jah

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If i compare it to other sandbox mmos, i don't see a specific reason to complain. I don't think that there's something wrong with the core concepts and i don't care for pvp balance issues yet, they will improve anyway. (otherwise it would be a killer for the game of course..)

Amount of time investment in regards of accomplishing sth in game (harvesting, crafting, killing) is absolutely okay for me. Skinning is a bit awkward though, that should be fastened by like 500%. Gear should definitely not be faster to get in terms of ressources.

Harvesting basically like in every other game. Needs to be done, it's okay, i like the little things like the crits and group harvesting. It shows me that they want to make it special and i think there will be more of stuff like this. Even if it weren't, this wouldn't be a con for me.

Combat feels okayish, definitely not bad, nothing special though. Haven't done enough pvp yet to see the learning curve though, there's basically non. Something that could be worked on. I think more variation like with combo / chains could be helpful.

I love , really love the crafting. I was stunned by the simple fact that even the most basic parts of your armor already impact the outcome of the whole. 

Still don't know how endgame feels like, but still i would say that i see it as one of the most promising games in this niche since...the good ol times. But well, tbh there weren't many that even had a chance.

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Harvesting isn't bad once you get to plentiful 5 with full skill training. My fear is that people won't stick with the game long enough to get there. It's painful early game. 

Crafting is similar. Early game it is very painful with lots of failures and bad rolls. End game it gets better (although RNG can still kick you in the junk on occasion). 

Combat training is pretty bland but does advance your character, probably too much.

This is why I've lobbied for roughly HALF of everything granted in the current skill trees to be rolled into the base vessel. This would make early Crowfall more interesting AND lessen the gap between new players and veteran players by flattening progression. 

As far as combat goes I still think the aiming is too easy and there's too much CC which drives down the skill ceiling. Artificial limits on how many targets an ability can hit should be replaced by tailoring the hit scans appropriately and using the already in place collision detection to determine how many people an attack can hit. Full friendly fire would be nice but is probably asking for too much based on the current combat system.

Darkfall combat (minus transfers and bunny hopping), Shadowbane character building, Eve economy, SWG crafting, Eve passive leveling, along with the procedurally generated maps, campaign resets and EK stuff. That is how I'd build Crowfall. 

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I think the movement of top end harvesting nodes to adventure zones will make harvesting more fun.  Certainly more interactive, as you have to fight NPCs and other groups who want the same resources.

The first month of gameplay in Crowfall sucks.  You enter the game unable to do anything remotely well, and it takes a month before you reach the point that should be the starting point.

After that, I think the game will be a great deal of fun, if anyone sticks around that long.  The combat is probably too simplistic, but a team of good players can still do some neat stuff together.  Given good win conditions, and a good score-tracking system, we could get enough people in game to actually test the fun factor of a campaign world.

My original concern about Crowfall was "will people stick around after they get their asses kicked in a CW?"   But in the past few months, my concern has become "will people stick around through the terrible starting experience to get to the part of the game we want Crowfall to be judged on?"

Harvesting is tedious.  It's terribly tedious in the early game, less so at end game.  As I said, putting it in adventure zones will help.

Having thralls to hunt down for runes will help.  A lot, probably.

Guild support is something they should have added in 3.0 at the latest.  They are shooting themselves in the foot leaving it out this long.

Having mounts will help.

Having a reason to take and hold forts and keeps will help.  Having proper siege mechanics will help.

Having more testers will help.   We have so few people actually testing the game  at any given time that we can't tell if the gameplay systems are going to work.  For me, this goes back to "the first 30 days suck" - people simply aren't willing to stick around through a month of tedium to get to the meat of the game.

I'm ok with the differentiation between classes.  I have issues with some of the designers' ideas about balance  (range not being a factor in determining an attack's power budget for example), but balance can be changed pretty readily given designers who listen to competent testers.   I think crafting is in a decent place, though the addition of thralls and factories will make a big difference.

The skill system could use some OR gates... you can go down this path OR down this path... not "you'll eventually go down every path."  The skill system is pretty bland to start with.. Blair has said it represents the same sort of thing you get from levelling up in other games... just stat increases essentially.  Other games give you skills as you level - Crowfall dumps them all on you at the start, except for disciplines.

 

Edited by Durenthal

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1 minute ago, Durenthal said:

The first month of gameplay in Crowfall sucks.  You enter the game unable to do anything remotely well, and it takes a month before you reach the point that should be the starting point.

After that, I think the game will be a great deal of fun, if anyone sticks around that long.

 

1 minute ago, Durenthal said:

 But in the past few months, my concern has become "will people stick around through the terrible starting experience to get to the part of the game we want Crowfall to be judged on?"

Exactly why I've been suggesting this lately:

6 minutes ago, blazzen said:

This is why I've lobbied for roughly HALF of everything granted in the current skill trees to be rolled into the base vessel. This would make early Crowfall more interesting AND lessen the gap between new players and veteran players by flattening progression. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

The first month of gameplay in Crowfall sucks.  You enter the game unable to do anything remotely well, and it takes a month before you reach the point that should be the starting point.

I don't know many people who will last past that first month to be honest. That first impression will filter out A LOT of potential customers. If they can make the early game not such a dull, mind numbing experience, that would put a lot of my concerns to bed.

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I think the first 30 days will be a lot less dull when more of the game loop is implemented. Right now we don't have to explore much, we don't really have to fight over territory, and we don't have much reason to build up forts and keeps.

If we are busy fighting over territory in Intermediate gear, the wait for Advanced gear won't be as bad.


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That discussion is basically the same as in the Passive Leveling Thread. Only here people seem to be afraid about the first month experience, while in the other thread i kinda get devastated by saying this out loud. BUT they confirmed that they speed up training the basics so i don't see the issue anymore.

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Eve took dedication and an eye for long term game play. It sucked spending a few days mining ore to build ships for everyone. It sucked mining ice for the POS. it felt great defending the space though.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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Regarding the first 30 days:

That is why I suggested that new accounts start with 30 days time bank only usuable in the basic combat, explore or craft tree - transforming that into part of your initial character creation.

Cough advantages and disadvantages cough

Or revamp basics skill trees if that cause too many alt vs VIP concerns

Edited by Tinnis

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Most of the problems seem like balancing issues, which I don't think can be addressed until the fundamental skeleton of the game is in.  Otherwise it just sucks a bunch of time that then has to be redone once a new feature is added.  So I don't really care about how harvesting and crafting are right now unless there is a problem with the system itself (but I think those systems are pretty good).

I think the Skill/powers/VIP systems might need changes that go beyond balancing though.  

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4 hours ago, Helix said:

Is crowfall boring?

Does it feel like a tedious chore?

Is the amount of time investment to get ready to the "juicy" parts of crowfall far too much?

Does harvesting and crafting suck?

Should there be less of a time investment in needing to gather? Should gear be faster to acquire? (At least the lower tiers: white, green).

Does combat feel far too basic?

Is skill training boring?

IMO, yes to all of the above (excluding crafting, which I actually think is quite good, just not the amount of mats required to craft the lowest tier of armor), and with soft launch supposedly this year I can see the game heading to a reckoning of sorts (word on the streets already is extremely critical if not down right negative).

Crowfall is in an extremely weird place. It's a heavily focused pvp game that's also supposedly trying to reach across the "aisle" and ensnare those mindcraft/landmark type players that like to run around 8 hours a day hitting rocks and building stuff. Unfortunately for those players, the vast majority of people who play crowfall are going to be stone cold killers that only want to gank and pillage. All their efforts will be for not, and getting repeatedly ganked will surely drive these type of players away. These two groups are vast different, and fairly incompatible. I fear the game will end up with two types of disillusioned players. The harvesters that just want to go out and hit rocks only to get killed, and the killers that are forced to go out and hit rocks because there aren't enough people who want to harvest (either because they've been driven away from the game, or because there simply isn't enough in the first place). The crafters will suffer because they won't have the mats required to manufacture armor and provide for the masses, so they too will be forced in to the tedious chore of having to harvest.

This isn't too far off from where we are now. 

I've seen the game regress a little bit more and more in the fun factor with the increasing emphasis on harvesting. I've harvested in other games, but it's different with crowfall. It's literally the most mind-numbing dull experience I've ever experienced in a video game. I'm not sure how they can improve it either besides drastically increasing the mats you receive and reducing the amount of time and effort necessary to acquire those mats and get your gear so you can actually "start" playing. Harvesting is simply not fun, yet the majority of players are forced to do it, and it eventually ends up monopolizing a large percentage of your play time in crowfall. 

I'm worried about the game. Everyone I've tried to sell on the idea has pretty much shrugged it off once I started talking about how harvesting and crafting is so vital to your character progression. It's not like gear isn't important, and the variance between gear statistically is significant.

It's not just the harvesting that's boring. It's the combat and class design too.

Combat and class design feels extremely sterile and one-dimensional. Combat literally revolves around spamming LMB, attacks are weightless and the base ability kits of most of the classes feel far too bland and "safe". Combat and class design is in a desperate need of an overhaul; doubtful considering what's already on the devs plate and a supposed soft launch deadline.

I'm interested in what others thing, I'm already readily anticipating the "this is a test, not the game" and "there is no game loop yet" arguments. Valid perhaps, but I think there is enough "game" here to at least see what direction they're going.

i got bored reading this...

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I so think there are problems with both the real time skill tree system and the gathering/crafting system in whole. 

Because crafters need resources they are relying on certain players  to gather and return safely to bank those resources. But if they keep on dieing and so do the combat based players in trying to protect them, their armour will just keep on breaking because of the horrible durration loss issues meaning the crafters will be too overworked and the lack of resources will start to take effect. Durration loss shouldnt be percent based it should be point based, 10 point durration loss for a death a further 50 points if you tow truck your corpse.  This will roughly give your armour a weeks life's span if you die 10 times per day. This will still keep crafters busy but not overworked and allow pvp players to enjoy thr game more without the worry their armour breaking to quickly.

The skill tree is good but bad at the same time. Its good for casual players who cant log on all that much but bad for those more hardcore players because at the start its gonna be a bit of a teadous wait to be able to get more crafting recipes or gathering loot. They could just keep the 10x speed up for the basic sections of the skill tree to give a more faster progression feel before the slower grind later for the more advanced sections of the tree.

After the durration issues my biggest worry about the game is the game engine. I personally think the enigine will struggle with the amount of players they want per campaign. They really need to start doing "open break the build tests" so information can be collected and when i mean open, open it to friends of already backers and ppl who have signed up for beta...they need to test the large scale stuff sooner rather than later.

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