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Is crowfall fundamentally boring?

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12 hours ago, Lightsig said:

Literally takes less than five minutes to craft a basic weapon and you can start killing spiders.

 

12 hours ago, Frykka said:

trees?    really, more than one?    I have rarely gotten less than 3 logs from the first tree.

I just want to level set this discussion a bit from the perspective of someone who joined the game a month ago.

The first day I logged in I was getting 1, maybe 2 if I was lucky, logs from a single tree.  (remember no trained skills!)

I happened to join the Balance faction (East US) we don't typically have any keeps when I play, so making anything other than a basic weapon is essentially out of the question.    Also, it took me about 3 days to see my FIRST dust drop.  So, crafting essentially anything (Discs, etc...) was totally out of the question even though it required no skill currently (I imagine it will eventually be done differently).

I did go out poking around in my basic crap gear, and got repeatedly run over and had to start over.  Now I, personally, don't care all that much.  But it was a poorly made socksty experience and is only starting to level out now about a month later.  I have run into many nice people willing to give me a hand and some advice.  But, subjectively, this is a terrible experience.  I -do- think that under the current paradigm it will be damn difficult to retain players.   Most people won't invest a month of time into something to get to the bits that they want to play.

The skill tree being passive is OK.  But.... it is way too deep.  Crafting anything takes over a week of training under the current system.  I do wonder what dedicated crafters are going to do when the skill training goes to launch speed.  Crafting at tables requires the second tier of skills under crafting which will be over a month away.  It seems a strange choice, and liable to also chase people.  I haven't played Eve in like 8 years, but I don't recall it having year-long prerequisites to choose the path I actually want.

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2 minutes ago, Whoom said:

 

I just want to level set this discussion a bit from the perspective of someone who joined the game a month ago.

The first day I logged in I was getting 1, maybe 2 if I was lucky, logs from a single tree.  (remember no trained skills!)

I happened to join the Balance faction (East US) we don't typically have any keeps when I play, so making anything other than a basic weapon is essentially out of the question.    Also, it took me about 3 days to see my FIRST dust drop.  So, crafting essentially anything (Discs, etc...) was totally out of the question even though it required no skill currently (I imagine it will eventually be done differently).

I did go out poking around in my basic crap gear, and got repeatedly run over and had to start over.  Now I, personally, don't care all that much.  But it was a poorly made socksty experience and is only starting to level out now about a month later.  I have run into many nice people willing to give me a hand and some advice.  But, subjectively, this is a terrible experience.  I -do- think that under the current paradigm it will be damn difficult to retain players.   Most people won't invest a month of time into something to get to the bits that they want to play.

The skill tree being passive is OK.  But.... it is way too deep.  Crafting anything takes over a week of training under the current system.  I do wonder what dedicated crafters are going to do when the skill training goes to launch speed.  Crafting at tables requires the second tier of skills under crafting which will be over a month away.  It seems a strange choice, and liable to also chase people.  I haven't played Eve in like 8 years, but I don't recall it having year-long prerequisites to choose the path I actually want.

Yeah I feel where you're coming from. It's kind of a on-going music record a lot of folks on these forums have said, including me, that it's a game designed around mostly group oriented gameplay. How I look at the whole skill training for crafters needing the mats and recipes unlocked means it gives players and guilds time to stockpile resources so when crafters are able to craft up a bunch of stuff with all the materials gathered, they will be able to outfit a good portion or even the entire guild if everyone pitched in with the gathering.

This is how I look at it in the beginning at launch. Everyone is going to work on getting basic gathering tools regardless if they're a gatherer, combat, or crafter role in the group/guild. Everyone is going to need to pitch in and help get all the garbage tier crafting mats to start crafting up all the basic gear and get some of it stockpiled cause player corpse looting is a thing. Even if getting the mats for the basic gear doesn't take a lot of time, the stuff breaks rather quickly. Particularly basic tools. So having some extra stuff made will be required and if the guild starts graduating from basic gear to use better stuff then people can just use the Sacrifice system to level up their vessels by offering up those things.

As a gatherer, I am very curious how the training speeds are going to be at launch but I do think in the beginning crafters are going to have a little more of a rougher time than everyone else just because their stuff is time gated. I hope child trees don't take a long time to train through. At 50% VIP kicks on so that's good.

Good to see some fresh feedback on this stuff. :D

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@Whoom

I do agree that new players shouldn't be completely locked out of crafting for a significant duration of time if that is what they are playing for.

My point was only that basic weapons are achievable pretty quickly in the current game. Also, disciplines can really support accessibility to content without a large passive training investment into the deeper trees, for now.

Hopefully some of this is corrected in the skill tree rework.

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, philocypher said:

I dare anyone to respond to this thread with "i like that the game starts out with players having nothing to do but palmstrike trees."

I like that the game starts out with players having nothing to do but palmstrike trees.

For at the most two trees.

Before they can make an axe.

To chop them.

To make a pick.

To hit ore.

And a hammer.

To hit rocks.

Which they can use to either make a weapon to get gold to buy equipment with, or a weapon and a knife to make their own.

Literally both options that are open to you right now. Kill boars, get gold, buy common advanced weaponry and armor or buy intermediate armor from the ever growing number of player vendors that are selling it. OR skin boars, gather dust (using basic disciplines and potions you can make yourself) take a fort, and make your own intermediates.

It seems people have agreed that coin has value, and are actually selling things of value for it. All you need to do to get it is kill a few mobs with a weapon that you can make in less than 5 minutes.

That said the crafting specialization training DOES need to start paying off a bit earlier, as its the only path avaliable to players that doesn't feel useful at all until you hit the second tree. TBH that entire basic crafting tree needs a rework to put some kind of interim gear recipies that sit between intermediate and advanced and actually make those basic crafting stats feel like worthwhile progression to starting crafters the same way the starting exploration and combat skills feel immediately useful.

Crafting skill progression in the basic tree DOES need to feel better though.

IMO just use the same base stats as intermediates for these recipes, but give them real start component recipe slots so they can put real stats on them in stead of just PCM. Call them "intermediate Metal billet/plank/strap" and use the same stat recipes as the advanced versions. Then starting crafters can start playing around with material mixing. Intermediate alchemy can get the HoT potions and learn one resource potion per skill point etc. etc. It really shouldn't be too hard to lay out the starting crafting trees so there's a but more progression than "get nothing until you get to advanced trees" without actually making advanced trees worthless. It literally just has to be better than intermediate gear and worse than advanced. There's a HUGE 30% gap there so its not like its hard to fill it. Just make that stuff tlike 10% better than normal intermediates. Advanced is still remarkably better and worth training in a "never look back" sense, but its still a big enough step up from intermediate that new players will feel a payoff for their own or their friends crafting skills WHILE they train up to advanced.

Edited by PopeUrban

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1 hour ago, Whoom said:

Also, it took me about 3 days to see my FIRST dust drop.  So, crafting essentially anything (Discs, etc...) was totally out of the question even though it required no skill currently (I imagine it will eventually be done differently).

....

Crafting at tables requires the second tier of skills under crafting which will be over a month away.  It seems a strange choice, and liable to also chase people.  I haven't played Eve in like 8 years, but I don't recall it having year-long prerequisites to choose the path I actually want.

This has a lot to do with the fact that the new player experience has not been developed yet. You could have gotten dust much more quickly if you knew what to do. Craft an Ethereal Sight discipline and a Dust finding potion (both found under basic crafting) and you could have collected dust and made Disciplines very quickly.

Also, you don't need training to make Intermediate gear at the crafting tables.

You weren't as locked out as you thought you were. I can't blame you for not knowing that. Its a side effect of being a new player in a pre-alpha before the new player experience has received much attention.

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57 minutes ago, Jah said:

Also, you don't need training to make Intermediate gear at the crafting tables.

You weren't as locked out as you thought you were. I can't blame you for not knowing that. Its a side effect of being a new player in a pre-alpha before the new player experience has received much attention.

Appreciate the advice, but I actually was that locked out.  When the team I picked (at random) holds no forts, which was the actual case during the times I logged in, I was completely locked out.  A month in I see some possibilities, like trying to organize groups to take them etc.., but in the first day that wasn't really something I could be expected to do.

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3 minutes ago, Whoom said:

Appreciate the advice, but I actually was that locked out.  When the team I picked (at random) holds no forts, which was the actual case during the times I logged in, I was completely locked out.  A month in I see some possibilities, like trying to organize groups to take them etc.., but in the first day that wasn't really something I could be expected to do.

False. On day one, with no armor and nothing but basic weapons and zero training you can take a fort by yourself. I have done so. You have six character slots.

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5 minutes ago, Whoom said:

Appreciate the advice, but I actually was that locked out.  When the team I picked (at random) holds no forts, which was the actual case during the times I logged in, I was completely locked out.  A month in I see some possibilities, like trying to organize groups to take them etc.., but in the first day that wasn't really something I could be expected to do.

That is another side-effect of pre-alpha testing. The population caps on the campaigns was dialed down to 40 because of lag spikes making the game unplayable. That resulted in the factions clumping on servers-- Order clumped on East, Balance clumped on West, etc. That isn't a problem with the game, its a problem with having a tiny population testing an MMORPG.

An individual player stuck on a faction-based campaign with nobody else in his faction is not going to happen when the game launches.

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3 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

You have six character slots.

Maybe what you said makes sense to someone... but it sure as heck isn't me.   On day one I didn't even know what the buttons did yet.   I suspect you were in a reset where you already knew what you needed to do, and just worked from there.  New people don't show up with that knowledge, and it is ridiculous to assume they should.

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Just now, Whoom said:

Maybe what you said makes sense to someone... but it sure as heck isn't me.   On day one I didn't even know what the buttons did yet.   I suspect you were in a reset where you already knew what you needed to do, and just worked from there.  New people don't show up with that knowledge, and it is ridiculous to assume they should.

Nobody assumes they should. The point is that you were not as locked out as you thought you were, and that you are talking about a new player experience that hasn't been crafted yet.

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Just now, Whoom said:

Maybe what you said makes sense to someone... but it sure as heck isn't me.   On day one I didn't even know what the buttons did yet.   I suspect you were in a reset where you already knew what you needed to do, and just worked from there.  New people don't show up with that knowledge, and it is ridiculous to assume they should.

My point is that you are not mechanically locked out. You're locking yourself out. The game does need to give you better up front information as a new player but unfortunately that new player experience isn't worth building until much further along in development when they are sure that the underlying systems will not change and make that development time wasted.

For now what you need to know is pretty simple:

If you want to take a fort as a new player, roll a character that is good at doing so. Afterward you can switch back to the character you're playing that's good at other things.

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13 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

False. On day one, with no armor and nothing but basic weapons and zero training you can take a fort by yourself. I have done so. You have six character slots.

Correction, you can take the fort if you play a class that has decent self healing or tankiness to survive the multi gaurd auto aim. You will have to engage, disengage and re-engage the interior guards before respawns occur(because you will need to constantly LOS outside the throne room where guards spawn at all corners). This also assumes there are no players defending the fort. Obviously, with the low player pops on the servers fort capturing can feel like pure PvE. Probably not how this will play out on release.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

Correction, you can take the fort if you play a class that has decent self healing or tankiness to survive the multi gaurd auto aim. You will have to engage, disengage and re-engage the interior guards before respawns occur(because you will need to constantly LOS outside the throne room where guards spawn at all corners). This also assumes there are no players defending the fort. Obviously, with the low player pops on the servers fort capturing can feel like pure PvE. Probably not how this will play out on release.

That isn't really a correction. You can switch to a vessel/class that is better at doing it, as he mentioned.

Edited by Jah

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3 hours ago, Whoom said:

I -do- think that under the current paradigm it will be damn difficult to retain players.   Most people won't invest a month of time into something to get to the bits that they want to play.

I derailed the conversation a bit.  Sorry.  The above bit being the most important thing I said, and we kind of got off on a side-line.  I think this is really going to be the meat of it.  I am very interested to see whether the skill tree redesign moves a bunch of things forward so that you can quickly get up doing the bits you want to do or if they remain locked behind a month (or more) of training.  I think that this is really what drives the game to be boring or not for people.  If you can do the bits you like with reasonable efficacy, then I think it is fun.  If it is a long slog to get there, then I think it will be boring.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Whoom said:

I derailed the conversation a bit.  Sorry.  The above bit being the most important thing I said, and we kind of got off on a side-line.  I think this is really going to be the meat of it.  I am very interested to see whether the skill tree redesign moves a bunch of things forward so that you can quickly get up doing the bits you want to do or if they remain locked behind a month (or more) of training.  I think that this is really what drives the game to be boring or not for people.  If you can do the bits you like with reasonable efficacy, then I think it is fun.  If it is a long slog to get there, then I think it will be boring.

And its an excellent point in regards to crafting specifically! I think the 5.5 update did a pretty overall great job of making both combat and gathering immediately accessible but crafting anything that actually requires specialization is still locked behind a pretty long series of training nodes that don't give any kind of utility to the one training them in the mean time. That's totally a problem. Training crafting at 10x feels bad, and training crafting at release speed feels a lot worse and it is a 100% valid point and something ACE has needed to address for a while.

Edited by PopeUrban

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7 minutes ago, Jah said:

That isn't really a correction. You can switch to a vessel/class that is better at doing it, as he mentioned.

If you read my response you would see I addressed that point. Don't know why there is this willfull ignorance but you do you.

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Just now, PopeUrban said:

And its an excellent point in regards to crafting specifically! I think the 5.5 update did a pretty overall great job of making both combat and gathering immediately accessible but crafting anything that actually requires specialization is still locked behind a pretty long series of training nodes that don't give any kind of utility to the one training them in the mean time. That's totally a problem.

I actually think it is a problem for gathering too.  I haven't trained combat enough to have an opinion.

For gathering, I wanted to specialize in ore gathering.  But in order to get that to work, in the basic gathering tree I basically had to get it to 75% completion, getting a lot of nodes that were animal gathering, stone mining, and wood gathering (read extra time spent on things I wasn't all that interested in).  Then in the excavation tree I have to get a bunch of nodes related to grave harvesting and stone harvesting to complete the final node so that I can go to the ore specialization.

Now, that isn't close to as bad as the crafting where you can't do basically anything with crafting.  But it still makes it a very very long time to pick a specialization and be good at something.  You are basically forced into being a jack-of-all-trades for a long long time (at standard crafting speeds)

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4 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

And its an excellent point in regards to crafting specifically! I think the 5.5 update did a pretty overall great job of making both combat and gathering immediately accessible but crafting anything that actually requires specialization is still locked behind a pretty long series of training nodes that don't give any kind of utility to the one training them in the mean time. That's totally a problem.

I guess I'll just leave this comment before I head off to work.

If ACE expands the basic crafting recipes to include more stuff to craft, then I think that would help service crafters better in making them feel like they get to do stuff while they passively skill train to unlock more recipes. Just my thoughts on that. :)

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Just now, Whoom said:

I actually think it is a problem for gathering too.  I haven't trained combat enough to have an opinion.

For gathering, I wanted to specialize in ore gathering.  But in order to get that to work, in the basic gathering tree I basically had to get it to 75% completion, getting a lot of nodes that were animal gathering, stone mining, and wood gathering (read extra time spent on things I wasn't all that interested in).  Then in the excavation tree I have to get a bunch of nodes related to grave harvesting and stone harvesting to complete the final node so that I can go to the ore specialization.

Now, that isn't close to as bad as the crafting where you can't do basically anything with crafting.  But it still makes it a very very long time to pick a specialization and be good at something.  You are basically forced into being a jack-of-all-trades for a long long time (at standard crafting speeds)

That's not how that works. You trained a lot of skill you didn't have to and that's the fault of the badly designed skill training UI that expects you to open the next tree and mouse over the first node to see what the actual requirement is, and that doesn't tell you in any way that you don't need to train to 5 on most nodes.

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2 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

If you read my response you would see I addressed that point. Don't know why there is this willfull ignorance but you do you.

You suggested that you can only do it if you play a class that is good at doing it. Anyone can play a class that is good at doing it. That is why it isn't really a correction.

I won't accuse you of willful ignorance though.

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