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Is crowfall fundamentally boring?

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2 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

It is clunky and confusing for sure. The underlying design is well balanced for player choice but the way it communicates to the player the actual options they have is a mess. On top of that, sometimes training 4 in a node doesn't properly unlock the next node (you have to start and cancel training 5 to fix that bug and allow training the next node) and visually the nodes that DO require going to 5 on all previous nodes look exactly the same as nodes that only require one previous skill to be ranked to 4. Hopefully this skill UI update they're doing fixes some of that stuff.

Clunky and continuity are my to favorite words for this game..  Game is Clunky and lacks continuity from one system to the next or at times even within the same system.  I understand most everything in this game was built modular, BUT, at some point the systems have to be put together and flow as one cohesive unit.

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4 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

 

Crafting skill progression in the basic tree DOES need to feel better though.

 

 

I disagree.  Crafting skill progression doesn't need to feel any way whatsoever.  My whole point is that not only is harvesting/crafting compulsory, but it's mandatory, as you've explained.

TBH, I would rather kill 10 boars.  I maxed out several schools of crafting in DF and DFUW, a game where crafting is much more tedious than crowfall...  Because it was a game that prioritized combat over the mundane aspects.

As I've explained multiple times, palm striking trees is a symptom of the problem: pvp and combat in general are not the priority focus of this game.

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1 hour ago, Nakawe said:

Clunky and continuity are my to favorite words for this game..  Game is Clunky and lacks continuity from one system to the next or at times even within the same system.  I understand most everything in this game was built modular, BUT, at some point the systems have to be put together and flow as one cohesive unit.

I totally agree...  And right now, combat seems to be perpetually unfinished, waiting for the game's real focus to be complete so it can figure out where it belongs.

In my opinion, combat should be the primary feature that all other systems are developed solely to support and compliment the combat.

The economy should exist to drive conflict...  Instead, combat exists to cycle the markets to combat inflation and create scarcity.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, philocypher said:

I disagree.  Crafting skill progression doesn't need to feel any way whatsoever.  My whole point is that not only is harvesting/crafting compulsory, but it's mandatory, as you've explained.

TBH, I would rather kill 10 boars.  I maxed out several schools of crafting in DF and DFUW, a game where crafting is much more tedious than crowfall...  Because it was a game that prioritized combat over the mundane aspects.

As I've explained multiple times, palm striking trees is a symptom of the problem: pvp and combat in general are not the priority focus of this game.

Harvesting and crafting are not mandatory at the individual level. You can get someone else to do it for you. You can even just kill harvesters and crafters to get their stuff.

If you'd rather kill boars you can definitely do that. Trade whatever you get off the boars for the stuff you want.

Palm striking trees plays such a tiny role in this game that I don't know why people are fixated on it. You palm strike 1 or 2 trees and then you are done with that in about one minute.

PvP is the main focus of the game. Harvesting and crafting are drivers for PvP. You need to fight over resources. You need to fight to hold crafting stations. You harvest and craft to gain advantages in PvP. That is the basic game loop.

Edited by Jah

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Jah said:

Harvesting and crafting are not mandatory at the individual level. You can get someone else to do it for you. You can even just kill harvesters and crafters to get their stuff.

If you'd rather kill boars you can definitely do that. Trade whatever you get off the boars for the stuff you want.

Palm striking trees plays such a tiny role in this game that I don't know why people are fixated on it. You palm strike 1 or 2 trees and then you are done with that in about one minute.

PvP is the main focus of the game. Harvesting and crafting are drivers for PvP. You need to fight over resources. You need to fight to hold crafting stations. You harvest and craft to gain advantages in PvP. That is the basic game loop.

So I agree with what you're saying. As a veteran tester I breeze past the "palm striking" phase, barely noticing it. I know that there's so much more to the game waiting for me, and all of it is more engaging than palm striking.

But I can see where the newer players are coming from. Palm striking may be literally 1 minute of the game, but it's the first minute of gameplay that every noob experiences. That makes it stand out disproportionately. First impressions are important, and palm striking doesn't make a good one.

Honestly the game was better off without it, when we had a free unlimited basic axe. The least they could do is spawn new players with a normal (limited durability) basic axe to get them started. Edit: or just make palms do as much damage as a basic axe. The fact that they don't generate pips is enough to make you craft an axe.

Edited by Avloren

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1 minute ago, Avloren said:

So I agree with what you're saying. As a veteran tester I breeze past the "palm striking" phase, barely noticing it. I know that there's so much more to the game waiting for me, and all of it is more engaging than palm striking.

But I can see where the newer players are coming from. Palm striking may be literally 1 minute of the game, but it's the first minute of gameplay that every noob experiences. That makes it stand out disproportionately. First impressions are important, and palm striking doesn't make a good one.

Honestly the game was better off without it, when we had a free unlimited basic axe. The least they could do is spawn new players with a normal (limited durability) basic axe to get them started.

Yea, I see what you mean with that. I find the palm strike amusing, but you may be right that a lot of new players may not like that first impression. That is totally fair feedback.

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Posted (edited)

Here's the thing though.

If the first time you punched a tree was in a slick tightly scripted section that plainly said "TUTORIAL LEVEL" nobody would complain about it, nor would they complain about doing it again on the rare occasion they had to. That applies to a lot of things TBH. There's a ton of deliberate tutorialization in the basic/intermediate crafting flow specifically intended to teach players how the harvesting and crafting systems work, and no elements that train people to expect to be able to trade for what they need, so you get a lot of complaints about people NEEDING to do things they don't actually need to do.

Like here. All through this thread. People keep saying crafting is mandatory despite the fact that the whole game is designed to make every part of it optional and actively prevent every player from crafting and harvesting everything they need in terms of actual long term equipment and consumable needs. Trading is mandatory in crowfall, either with coins or in trust, and will remain so. Crafting and gathering? Those become linearly less mandatory as the population grows, banks fill up, and economic systems come online without changing a single thing about crafting and gathering.

That's not to say the gear creation/destruction loop is adequate at the moment. Lack of mass production, lack of certain durability bonuses, and a questionable balance between time to gather materials versus time it takes to break an item are definately things that need to get a second pass once the rest of the crafting and the trading systems come online.

Would it be a bad idea to spawn new players with basic weapons and tools? Honestly in the current state of play it might, as you'd just move the goalpost to a more frustrating state from "aww man why do I have to strike a tree" to "wtf my stuff broke AND I have to punch a tree"

Honestly though, I don't see the harm in completely removing durability on basic tools and weapons after the first craft. You're bound to lose some basic tools to pvp, and the utility of that tutorialization evaporates after the first time you craft that stuff and in to the realm of the long term economy of "now i have to get better stuff"

Edited by PopeUrban

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Overall this topic feels a bit premature.

I'm not trying to naysay any considerations people may have about current implemented systems. It's just that the game isn't even near "completion" and not even soft launch is guaranteed to be a fully polished and wholly fulfilling product. We're looking at some serious time between now and the end of the year to get a better feel for potential game loops and admittedly the progress so far has been incredible. Credit where credit is due.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Whoom said:

I actually think it is a problem for gathering too.  I haven't trained combat enough to have an opinion.

For gathering, I wanted to specialize in ore gathering.  But in order to get that to work, in the basic gathering tree I basically had to get it to 75% completion, getting a lot of nodes that were animal gathering, stone mining, and wood gathering (read extra time spent on things I wasn't all that interested in).  Then in the excavation tree I have to get a bunch of nodes related to grave harvesting and stone harvesting to complete the final node so that I can go to the ore specialization.

Now, that isn't close to as bad as the crafting where you can't do basically anything with crafting.  But it still makes it a very very long time to pick a specialization and be good at something.  You are basically forced into being a jack-of-all-trades for a long long time (at standard crafting speeds)

That is not the case either, to unlock the excavation tree all you needed was the gathering proficiency to 4 pips...   about 1 day of training at current speeds. like 4 nodes and not 75% of tree...   to unlock ore specialty you need 5 pips on the Advanced Picks node (6 nodes in)...   about 3 more days on current training speed.   Yes, you are unfamiliar with the game, the skill trees and everything because there is no "new player experience" built into the design YET.  That would be a waste of money and time as others have said until we get closer to the final iteration of all the mechanics.

Edited by Frykka

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How you destroy a Knotwood Tree in the beginning of a campaign, regardless of animation used, isn't going to really matter. If punching a tree is enough to turn you off from the game, then I guess cya in another game. It's not that big of a deal. It sure is a heck of a lot more enjoyable to watch than spawning some terrible glowing blue axe that would do around the same amount of damage but since the animation time was longer it actually takes cumulatively more time to collect whatever necessary resources to craft your first couple axes to continue moving onto better stuff.

I am more concerned with how few things crafters are going to make with no training or how fast their child tree training is going to take once training times are set to normal speeds. How I get Knotwood in the first 5 minutes of a brand new campaign is pretty irrelevant and a low barrier to entry into moving further into the game loop to more fun things.

How about focusing our time discussing things that are actually going to matter?

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It will seem slow at first, but at least everyone will be at the same level.  Its going to take some time to get 100 dust to make each station.

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21 minutes ago, Devonic said:

It will seem slow at first, but at least everyone will be at the same level.  Its going to take some time to get 100 dust to make each station.

That isn't a bad thing. It requires people to actually play the game. lol

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14 minutes ago, entityofsin said:

That isn't a bad thing. It requires people to actually play the game. lol

true

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I think the travel speed is what kills me. We need some real sprinting or something. Also to get into some form of pvp takes like 5 minutes. Get 3 wood and make axe. For ranger just get 20 more wood then make bow, arrows, and a new axe. Now your ready for battle and ready to harvest more.

The main issue right now is really a lack of scale and playerbase which will be fixed later. For instance, after capturing a keep you are now stuck camping in the keep otherwise its retaken. If you leave said keep you are ganked and have to spend 20 minutes as the slowest crew on the face of this planet. With more players and a larger map after the capture of a base you would see players gushing fourth. This would make it less boring to just sit around in the new base. You would also be able to leave without being ganked thanks to help from your more numerous team. Unless said team is wiped. 

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Posted (edited)

Games = Fun

Zero Fun thus far.

Harvesting is horrible, needs to be 10X faster

Take a clue from Fortnite

 

Edited by SittingBull

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, SittingBull said:

Games = Fun

Zero Fun thus far.

Harvesting is horrible, needs to be 10X faster

Take a clue from Fortnite

 

Radical Heights is better than Fortnite.

Edited by MJayed

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10 hours ago, SittingBull said:

Games = Fun

Zero Fun thus far.

Harvesting is horrible, needs to be 10X faster

Take a clue from Fortnite

 

Fortnite isn't a MMO. Different design philosophy and approaches go into a MMO than a Battle Royale game.

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ummm...I don't play Battle Royale - and that has nothing to do with the harvesting mechanic - they already implemented the "whack-a-mole" - find the weak point mini harvesting game - Fortnite had that longer than Crowfall. You can implement best fun practices from other genre games, it is done all the time.

Doesn't change that harvesting is the opposite of fun thus far.

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1 minute ago, SittingBull said:

ummm...I don't play Battle Royale - and that has nothing to do with the harvesting mechanic - they already implemented the "whack-a-mole" - find the weak point mini harvesting game - Fortnite had that longer than Crowfall. You can implement best fun practices from other genre games, it is done all the time.

Doesn't change that harvesting is the opposite of fun thus far.

Doesn't matter which game had what first before the other. They are two very different games. Very different game loops. How you gather in Fortnite is a reflection on how everything gets wiped when you die or match ends. You don't take any of it home with you. You can't bank anything.

A lot of the fun of Crowfall will get solved with better server stability and larger player base. These things will get solved in the future as the game is developed.

For someone like me who's been a gatherer in the majority of MMOs that I've played, the gathering in this game at its current state isn't that bad.

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4 minutes ago, entityofsin said:

Doesn't matter which game had what first before the other. They are two very different games. Very different game loops. How you gather in Fortnite is a reflection on how everything gets wiped when you die or match ends. You don't take any of it home with you. You can't bank anything.

A lot of the fun of Crowfall will get solved with better server stability and larger player base. These things will get solved in the future as the game is developed.

For someone like me who's been a gatherer in the majority of MMOs that I've played, the gathering in this game at its current state isn't that bad.

FYI - Yes in Fortnite - Save the World - you do harvest, craft and keep EVERYTHING - as a matter of fact the game is full of farmers

I have a backpack with 165 slots, a storage banck with 45 slots and my homebase inventory holds 265 items

There is weapon crafting, trap crafting, recycling- I have stacks of 5K wood, 4K nuts and bolts etc

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