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Helix

Is crowfall fundamentally boring?

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Just now, PopeUrban said:

That's not how that works. You trained a lot of skill you didn't have to and that's the fault of the badly designed skill training UI that expects you to open the next tree and mouse over the first node to see what the actual requirement is, and that doesn't tell you in any way that you don't need to train to 5 on most nodes.

Huh.  I'll take your word for it, because it sure as heck isn't clear.  What I found is that unless I trained all branches of each tree up, I couldn't train that last node which seemed like it was gating me from progressing to the next major section.

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Just now, Jah said:

You suggested that you can only do it if you play a class that is good at doing it. Anyone can play a class that is good at doing it. That is why it isn't really a correction.

I won't accuse you of willful ignorance though.

Ha, correction, I was just being more specific and outlined it with the exact interactions. Sorry, you missed that.

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Just now, Whoom said:

Huh.  I'll take your word for it, because it sure as heck isn't clear.  What I found is that unless I trained all branches of each tree up, I couldn't train that last node which seemed like it was gating me from progressing to the next major section.

You never need to train the last node to get to the next tree. It requires rank 4 in Gathering proficiency to get to excavation, and rank 5 in amazing picks to unlock ore specialization. These requirements are visible by mousing over the first node in those trees.

It isn't intuitive or well communicated so your confusion is completely understandable. The skill tree UI doesn't do anything to help you out here.


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1 minute ago, PopeUrban said:

It isn't intuitive or well communicated so your confusion is completely understandable. The skill tree UI doesn't do anything to help you out here.

Nope.  It is terribly confusing tbh.  Hopefully this will get better!  Thanks for the clarification I'll take a look when I get on later.

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2 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

Ha, correction, I was just being more specific and outlined it with the exact interactions. Sorry, you missed that.

Adding additional information isn't typically referred to as a "correction." That word typically refers to a change that rectifies an error or inaccuracy.


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Just now, Whoom said:

Nope.  It is terribly confusing tbh.  Hopefully this will get better!  Thanks for the clarification I'll take a look when I get on later.

Its also wildly inconsistant between trees TBH. Some trees require a specific skill to be ranked to 4 or 5, some trees require a specific % of the previous tree to be completed. The whole thing makes sense from a balance perspective but doesn't work the way players naturally expect it to.


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2 minutes ago, Jah said:

Adding additional information isn't typically referred to as a "correction." That word typically refers to a change that rectifies an error or inaccuracy.

I would say oversimplifying something can be corrected. Argument over semantics is pretty low value added don't you think?

Edited by Lightsig

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Just now, Whoom said:

Huh.  I'll take your word for it, because it sure as heck isn't clear.  What I found is that unless I trained all branches of each tree up, I couldn't train that last node which seemed like it was gating me from progressing to the next major section.

The whole skill training interface is "CLUNKY" as hell and I hope they take a serious look at the revamp they are doing in 5.6 on it.  It should not force me to train healing nodes if I have ZERO desire to heal before I can move to another tree.  It is loaded with tons of that crap.  Like having to train leather working on a sylvan tree before I can go into the elf tree.  I should be able to pick and choose what I want to do and not be gated behind crap.  

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Just now, Lightsig said:

I would say oversimplifying something can be corrected. Argument over semantics is pretty low value added don't you think?

Not quite as low value as calling someone willfully ignorant for suggesting that your correction was not really a correction. If you insult people for stupid reasons they might be expected to point out how stupid your reasons were.

It is not an oversimplification to say he wasn't locked out of taking that fort. Sure, more information and instructions on how to do it can be added, but that is not a correction.


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1 minute ago, Nakawe said:

The whole skill training interface is "CLUNKY" as hell and I hope they take a serious look at the revamp they are doing in 5.6 on it.  It should not force me to train healing nodes if I have ZERO desire to heal before I can move to another tree.  It is loaded with tons of that crap.  Like having to train leather working on a sylvan tree before I can go into the elf tree.  I should be able to pick and choose what I want to do and not be gated behind crap.  

You don't have to do that. You need to train 50% of the nodes in sylvan to unlock elf. Your choice of nodes and ranks of those nodes. Again the fact that you thought you had to do is in no way your fault as the skill UI is HORRIBLE at giving you this information, requiring you to open a tree marked as locked and mouse over the first skill to view the actual unlock requirement, where the natural player assumption is that you'd need to train mastery in the sylvan tree to unlock it (which you don't actually have to do)


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2 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

You don't have to do that. You need to train 50% of the nodes in sylvan to unlock elf. Your choice of nodes and ranks of those nodes. Again the fact that you thought you had to do is in no way your fault as the skill UI is HORRIBLE at giving you this information, requiring you to open a tree marked as locked and mouse over the first skill to view the actual unlock requirement, where the natural player assumption is that you'd need to train mastery in the sylvan tree to unlock it (which you don't actually have to do)

Thinking a bit about this, I suspect it is also the fault of a bad design in the skill trees where every node inside (for instance) Sylvan leads to a final node.  That whole shape kind of screams out that you have to train the whole thing to get past it.  It makes that tree look like a part of the higher-level tree and (at least) I felt that it was obviously the way to open up the locked trees behind it. 

Now I wonder how many days of training I wasted on stuff I didn't want.  Probably best not to try and calculate it :P

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Just now, Whoom said:

Thinking a bit about this, I suspect it is also the fault of a bad design in the skill trees where every node inside (for instance) Sylvan leads to a final node.  That whole shape kind of screams out that you have to train the whole thing to get past it.  It makes that tree look like a part of the higher-level tree and (at least) I felt that it was obviously the way to open up the locked trees behind it. 

Now I wonder how many days of training I wasted on stuff I didn't want.  Probably best not to try and calculate it :P

Well if its any consolation, at least its not a permanent mistake due to a bad Ui design since its all getting wiped anyway. I, too wasted a lot of training time for exactly the same reason before the 5.4 skill wipe :P


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9 minutes ago, Jah said:

Not quite as low value as calling someone willfully ignorant for suggesting that your correction was not really a correction. If you insult people for stupid reasons they might be expected to point out how stupid your reasons were.

It is not an oversimplification to say he wasn't locked out of taking that fort. Sure, more information and instructions on how to do it can be added, but that is not a correction.

Well, let's go a little further with this pointlessness.

If he told him he was incorrect but did not offer the details that would guide him out of the perception of feeling locked out then nothing changes and that feeling persists. You could definitely play a more fitting class for solo capturing on a dead server but if other details are omitted the incomplete information is therefore not entirely correct on its own. If it helps dissipate your sensitivity I can make a correction on that post to state "Please note," instead. Let me know.

Edited by Lightsig

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Just now, Lightsig said:

If it helps dissipate your sensitivity I can make a correction on that post to state "Please note," instead. Let me know.

You are the one who is raging about someone saying "That isn't really a correction" to you.


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17 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

You don't have to do that. You need to train 50% of the nodes in sylvan to unlock elf. Your choice of nodes and ranks of those nodes. Again the fact that you thought you had to do is in no way your fault as the skill UI is HORRIBLE at giving you this information, requiring you to open a tree marked as locked and mouse over the first skill to view the actual unlock requirement, where the natural player assumption is that you'd need to train mastery in the sylvan tree to unlock it (which you don't actually have to do)

Well the last node in the Sylvan tree is the best.  In order to train that last node, I have to train the crap.  Please correct me if I am wrong?

I also have to 5 pip everything just before last node before I can train it. (I understand not every node, just ones connected to last node)

Edited by Nakawe

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1 minute ago, Jah said:

You are the one who is raging about someone saying "That isn't really a correction" to you.

Thats laughable. Cool as a cucumber, my dude. Are the only people that ever disagree with you frothing at the mouth or is that how you like to imagine them as some type of defensive mechanism? 

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Just now, Nakawe said:

Well the last node in the Sylvan tree is the best.  In order to train that last node, I have to train the crap.  Please correct me if I am wrong?

Nope, that's how the mastry nodes work, but mastry isn't required to unlock deeper trees in any case so your choice is "do I want to traing the rest of this tree to master it" or "do I want to move on to a more advanced tree and continue training stats I want to and get what mastry offers me faster and train filler later"


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5 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Nope, that's how the mastry nodes work, but mastry isn't required to unlock deeper trees in any case so your choice is "do I want to traing the rest of this tree to master it" or "do I want to move on to a more advanced tree and continue training stats I want to and get what mastry offers me faster and train filler later"

Then why am I allowed to 4 pip everything in tree until just the nodes before last node?  Does not seem like mastery to me.  Make me 5 pip EVERY node  for mastery.  The whole system is clunky and there is no rhyme nor reason to any of it.  Gate me at a %% and let me train whatever I want in the tree....

Edited by Nakawe

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3 minutes ago, Nakawe said:

Then why am I allowed to 4 pip everything in tree until just the nodes before last node?  Does not seem like mastery to me.  Make me 5 pip EVERY node or none of them.  The whole system is clunky and there is no rhyme nor reason to any of it.  

It is clunky and confusing for sure. The underlying design is well balanced for player choice but the way it communicates to the player the actual options they have is a mess. On top of that, sometimes training 4 in a node doesn't properly unlock the next node (you have to start and cancel training 5 to fix that bug and allow training the next node) and visually the nodes that DO require going to 5 on all previous nodes look exactly the same as nodes that only require one previous skill to be ranked to 4. Hopefully this skill UI update they're doing fixes some of that stuff.

Edited by PopeUrban

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5 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

Thats laughable. Cool as a cucumber, my dude. Are the only people that ever disagree with you frothing at the mouth or is that how you like to imagine them as some type of defensive mechanism? 

No, only the ones who fly into a rage and start spouting off insults and snark at the mere suggestion that something they said is not really a correction.


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