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Helix

Is crowfall fundamentally boring?

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1 minute ago, SittingBull said:

FYI - Yes in Fortnite - Save the World - you do harvest, craft and keep EVERYTHING - as a matter of fact the game is full of farmers

I have a backpack with 165 slots, a storage banck with 45 slots and my homebase inventory holds 265 items

There is weapon crafting, trap crafting, recycling- I have stacks of 5K wood, 4K nuts and bolts etc

Thought they just turned it into a Battle Royale game and got rid of that game mode. I don't play the game either but I do remember that game mode.

Still a very different game to Crowfall. Still not even the same type of game.

Players in Crowfall shouldn't be showered with thousands of resource mats anyways. That's a bit dumb for a MMO.

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5 minutes ago, entityofsin said:

Thought they just turned it into a Battle Royale game and got rid of that game mode. I don't play the game either but I do remember that game mode.

Still a very different game to Crowfall. Still not even the same type of game.

Players in Crowfall shouldn't be showered with thousands of resource mats anyways. That's a bit dumb for a MMO.

No, they tacked on battle royale as a free to play thing because their base game is a grindy pay to win mess that was way better before they screwed it up with all the additional monetization. Turned out people liked the battle royale game because it wasn't a grindy pay to win mess, and because it was free.

That's why you only hear about the battle royale part of the game. its the only part of the gamethat's not suffocating under its own avarice. Sad too. Its core game loop was actually pretty fun before they leaned so hard on cash shop llammas and grind.


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20 minutes ago, jetah said:

did you play during hunger dome?

yep.and all thats changed with combat is they got rid of animation lock...and they made everything ray cast . They need real physics real spells not ray csts. Get rid of all this atrocious CC there is so many different types of CC in this game. this much CC doesnt belong in a "skill based" full loot game. ACE is trying to make a pvp game they  need to stop listening to washed up crafters/harvestors cuz they donated thousands and listen to actual PVPers.

Edited by wor

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2 hours ago, wor said:

yep.and all thats changed with combat is they got rid of animation lock...and they made everything ray cast . They need real physics real spells not ray csts. Get rid of all this atrocious CC there is so many different types of CC in this game. this much CC doesnt belong in a "skill based" full loot game. ACE is trying to make a pvp game they  need to stop listening to washed up crafters/harvestors cuz they donated thousands and listen to actual PVPers.

 

 

All of the devs work hard on this game, but I agree, I am not sure pvp design is being done by the correct staff members at this time. I do not want to use specific names, but the design lead for the crafting/harvesting system should focus on that. A competitive PvPer (i.e., a grand master or master ranked player [in blizzard pvp games] or equivalent in some other ranking system), and someone with past pvp design should be the design lead for the pvp (not a harvesting/crafting enthusiast).  Currently all of the classes in crowfall seem to have a "mish mash" of skills that do not synergize or compliment each other too well. I am fine with having a slightly slower combat pace than most MMO pvp games, but the class, skill, and combat flow need work. The most obvious example of a blatant flaw (in my opinion) is all the of the songs--- so a character should run 4, 2 second cast songs,  spam these all match, and this is good pvp design? = /  

 

Todd is clearly an amazing game director and intelligent leader. I hope he gets the right people working on the pvp. I am sorry to say, it's not a good sign when the most popular topic on the forums is "is the game fundamentally boring?" 75% of the player base wants a good pvp game, they do not want to play crowfall: the harvest/crafting simulator. 

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13 hours ago, wor said:

yep.and all thats changed with combat is they got rid of animation lock...and they made everything ray cast . They need real physics real spells not ray csts. Get rid of all this atrocious CC there is so many different types of CC in this game. this much CC doesnt belong in a "skill based" full loot game. ACE is trying to make a pvp game they  need to stop listening to washed up crafters/harvestors cuz they donated thousands and listen to actual PVPers.

This sounds pretty self entitled and self proclaiming. You're assuming gatherers like myself aren't actual pvpers. I picked the role as a gatherer for my guild specifically to help out in getting better gear, trade equity for the EK, and to do two things I like doing in MMOs: pvp and gather resources. I might not be top damage in the group, but I made that decision so I can help bolster the guild's strength in the long run. At some point I won't need gathering disciplines or I'll be able to swap between different vessels when needed for different situations.

Whether it's animation lock, ray casts, or even real physics to spells and abilities, the decision to pick one direction over another probably comes down to a couple things: time budget to meet whatever internal standards there are with limited resources and engine limitations and restrictions since they're using Unity. I don't even know what you're talking about when it comes to physics in the game. Most MMOs don't have "real physics" anyways.

Are you talking about a fireball should arc downwards the further it moves forward through the air? Realism only has a limited place in video games and that isn't one of them. If they used a tab targeting system people would complain. They're using ray casts and people complain. Either way people are going to complain about something in the game that doesn't really affect their ability to play and enjoy the game; even in a pre-alpha and feature incomplete state.

I do agree that the game has a lot of CC and the majority of it is pretty strong. There are pretty steep diminishing returns on CC and with how laggy servers are, how horrible hit box detection is, and the lack of enough players to really draw data from, the balance around CC is definitely going to end up towards the result of much of it getting nerfed. That's how it is in pretty much every single MMO I've played personally. At least any nerfs will come after the playability of the game in pre-alpha, alpha, beta, etc. states gets more optimized to hold more players and hit box detection is tightened up a little bit to allow for skillful ray cast shots.

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11 hours ago, Mykro said:

 

 

All of the devs work hard on this game, but I agree, I am not sure pvp design is being done by the correct staff members at this time. I do not want to use specific names, but the design lead for the crafting/harvesting system should focus on that. A competitive PvPer (i.e., a grand master or master ranked player [in blizzard pvp games] or equivalent in some other ranking system), and someone with past pvp design should be the design lead for the pvp (not a harvesting/crafting enthusiast).  Currently all of the classes in crowfall seem to have a "mish mash" of skills that do not synergize or compliment each other too well. I am fine with having a slightly slower combat pace than most MMO pvp games, but the class, skill, and combat flow need work. The most obvious example of a blatant flaw (in my opinion) is all the of the songs--- so a character should run 4, 2 second cast songs,  spam these all match, and this is good pvp design? = /  

 

Todd is clearly an amazing game director and intelligent leader. I hope he gets the right people working on the pvp. I am sorry to say, it's not a good sign when the most popular topic on the forums is "is the game fundamentally boring?" 75% of the player base wants a good pvp game, they do not want to play crowfall: the harvest/crafting simulator. 

Being good at PvP and being good at designing PvP are not the same thing. Being good at PvP requires learning where the system is most broken and exploiting it. Being good at designing PvP requires learning where the system is most broken and making it less broken. Being good at designing PvP in an open world (as opposed to matchmade system with "grandmaster" ranks and other such esports nonsense) also requires that the space between the skill ceiling and the skill floor is small enough that players have a reasonably enjoyable fight when facing one another down regardless of individual skill level.

Also, no, songs are in no way designed to do what you seem to think they're designed to do. They're channeled buffs. Built of be channeled buffs. That's why the cast times are so long. To actively discourage constantly keeping up multiples because... you'd be just casting them and doing nothing else. If "so I'm supposed to hotbar all of these and cast them constantly" was your first thought, perhaps you're not as qualified to weigh in on the game's design as you think you are.

Edited by PopeUrban

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10 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Being good at PvP and being good at designing PvP are not the same thing. Being good at PvP requires learning where the system is most broken and exploiting it. Being good at designing PvP requires learning where the system is most broken and making it less broken. Being good at designing PvP in an open world (as opposed to matchmade system with "grandmaster" ranks and other such esports nonsense) also requires that the space between the skill ceiling and the skill floor is small enough that players have a reasonably enjoyable fight when facing one another down regardless of individual skill level.

Also, no, songs are in no way designed to do what you seem to think they're designed to do. They're channeled buffs. Built of be channeled buffs. That's why the cast times are so long. To actively discourage constantly keeping up multiples because... you'd be just casting them and doing nothing else. If "so I'm supposed to hotbar all of these and cast them constantly" was your first thought, perhaps you're not as qualified to weigh in on the game's design as you think you are.

you are correct that being good at pvp doesn't automatically make you good at designing pvp, but it increases the chances. As does being bad at pvp, increase the chance you are bad at designing pvp.

You are right, I do not know crowfall inside and out, the game was a harvest simulator so I stopped playing after a few days, but my understanding is that there are major and minor disciplines that improve songs, so if you are going to run these disciplines it makes sense to run multiple songs, no? 

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3 hours ago, Mykro said:

you are correct that being good at pvp doesn't automatically make you good at designing pvp, but it increases the chances. As does being bad at pvp, increase the chance you are bad at designing pvp.

You are right, I do not know crowfall inside and out, the game was a harvest simulator so I stopped playing after a few days, but my understanding is that there are major and minor disciplines that improve songs, so if you are going to run these disciplines it makes sense to run multiple songs, no? 

One of those runes exists to enable you to run two songs without constantly casting them, by extending their duration. The base duration is 12 seconds, long enough that you can recast the song after a stun, but generally intended to be chosen and left to cycle, and new casts to be cast when you want to change channels. What you discovered was that trying to upkeep 4 channeled abilities that detoggle each other constantly was (as intended) not a performant way to use them. Extending them, however, lets you recast two songs was less often so you CAN run two songs while actually doing other stuff.

The other rune, twisting, is an opportunity cost modifier. The down side is that you need to slot all four songs and a passive to use its effect. The up side is that it creates a buff after casting all four songs that makes the fifth song superpowered. In general the use case here is that you sacrifice a huge chunk of your bar to gain the ability to channel one very powerful buff with a very long (10 second) effective cast time.

In general (and this goes for most disciplines) you're rarely equipping every power on a disc because the design of the power trays is such that they're a limited resource.These two minors are special cases specifically intended to make it worth your time to equip more songs where it is otherwise intentional that it's not worth the cost in bar slots to do so due to their mutually exclusive nature.

Edited by PopeUrban

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On 3/22/2018 at 10:24 AM, Helix said:

Crowfall is in an extremely weird place. It's a heavily focused pvp game that's also supposedly trying to reach across the "aisle" and ensnare those mindcraft/landmark type players that like to run around 8 hours a day hitting rocks and building stuff. Unfortunately for those players, the vast majority of people who play crowfall are going to be stone cold killers that only want to gank and pillage. All their efforts will be for not, and getting repeatedly ganked will surely drive these type of players away. These two groups are vast different, and fairly incompatible. I fear the game will end up with two types of disillusioned players. The harvesters that just want to go out and hit rocks only to get killed, and the killers that are forced to go out and hit rocks because there aren't enough people who want to harvest (either because they've been driven away from the game, or because there simply isn't enough in the first place). The crafters will suffer because they won't have the mats required to manufacture armor and provide for the masses, so they too will be forced in to the tedious chore of having to harvest.

This to me is the best point Helix made and a very real problem for the game. Most MMO's have some escape mechanism for gatherers. Its not a sure thing but if you do things right and or the ganker does something wrong the chance of escape is very good. Right now if you are gathering and are using gathering disciplines maybe even armor with gathering stats you really do not have a chance against someone fully geared for PVP. Your just easy pickings. To make it worse you possibly spent most of your training time on gathering and crafting rather than fighting because fighting crating and gathering is all in the same tree. If you think a PVP minded player is going to stand around and watch another player bang on rocks for hours on end your crazy. The only thing worse than banging on rocks is watching someone else do it. As soon as a fort is being attacked or any notification PVP is going on the one guarding will run like a dog chasing a ball to the action and leave the gatherer to his own defenses.  Its about risk V reward the gatherer wont gather unless he thinks he has a good chance of banking what he spends his time gathering. The people guarding wont get much PVP action because the gankers wont take the risk he will move on to a easy target someone left alone. So where will the materials come from for the crafter's to craft the gear the PVP guys are losing because of durability loss? In a completely player driven economy this is a big problem. Helix is right The vast majority of people that play this game will be  gankers. Some type of speed buff and or immunity is needed to give the gatherer some chance of survival. 

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13 minutes ago, Hammur said:

Some type of speed buff and or immunity is needed to give the gatherer some chance of survival. 

These are available. Use them. In my experience the best protection for a Gatherer is to play an Assassin or Duelist that can pop his ultimate and escape in stealth. But there are number of ways to protect yourself.

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On 14/04/2018 at 1:22 PM, PopeUrban said:

Being good at PvP and being good at designing PvP are not the same thing. Being good at PvP requires learning where the system is most broken and exploiting it. Being good at designing PvP requires learning where the system is most broken and making it less broken. Being good at designing PvP in an open world (as opposed to matchmade system with "grandmaster" ranks and other such esports nonsense) also requires that the space between the skill ceiling and the skill floor is small enough that players have a reasonably enjoyable fight when facing one another down regardless of individual skill level.

...

That is totally incorrect. Being good at PVP isn't exploting the broken mechanics. That only really works in a game with really bad pvp combat and an extremely shallow curve. In any game with good pvp combat, being good at pvp of course also involves knowing the mechanics inside out and using the best loadout for any given situation (call it exploting broken mechanics if you want), but it is also about mechanical skill with mouse and keyboard, decision making in a split second, situational awareness, tactical and strategical choices, shot calling and several other factors you completely ignored. 

You need at the very least to be aware of all those factors and the flow of good pvp combat to be able to design a good pvp experience imo. I agree with @Mykro

Some of the best pvp combat I've played were designed by people with solid experience with pvp games and combat. Can't really say if they were master/grandmaster level or whatever, but at least their careers and resume were obviously focused on pvp combat, not crafting systems. Heck, even Overwatch which can be considered a very casual friendly game, Jeff Kaplan is known to play ranked consistently and last I checked several months ago his ranking was well above than average, high platinum at around top 30% or something. He clearly makes an effort to play the combat in his game and understand its intricacies, even though he is not a master player. 

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7 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

That is totally incorrect. Being good at PVP isn't exploting the broken mechanics. That only really works in a game with really bad pvp combat and an extremely shallow curve. In any game with good pvp combat, being good at pvp of course also involves knowing the mechanics inside out and using the best loadout for any given situation (call it exploting broken mechanics if you want), but it is also about mechanical skill with mouse and keyboard, decision making in a split second, situational awareness, tactical and strategical choices, shot calling and several other factors you completely ignored. 

You need at the very least to be aware of all those factors and the flow of good pvp combat to be able to design a good pvp experience imo. I agree with @Mykro

Some of the best pvp combat I've played were designed by people with solid experience with pvp games and combat. Can't really say if they were master/grandmaster level or whatever, but at least their careers and resume were obviously focused on pvp combat, not crafting systems. Heck, even Overwatch which can be considered a very casual friendly game, Jeff Kaplan is known to play ranked consistently and last I checked several months ago his ranking was well above than average, high platinum at around top 30% or something. He clearly makes an effort to play the combat in his game and understand its intricacies, even though he is not a master player. 

The suggestion that one must BE good at PvP to be good at DESIGNING PvP is what I was getting at.

Try not to have an emotional reaction to the term "exploit" as in this context I'm not using it in a derogatory context, or to imply cheating. I'm using it in a very real competitive context. Your first goal in any given PvP encounter, no matter the system, be it physical sports, board, or video games is to first find weaknesses in your opponents. The rules are your opponent just as much as the other players. Your second goal is to exploit every weakness you can find in whichever way is easiest for you based upon your own strengths. All of the other factors you listed are skillsets that can be useful in some bubbles and are completely useless in others.

The En Passant rule was added to chess in response to particularly good players learning you could position pawns  in such a way that you could render your own front line partly uncounterable by the opponent's front line. This is a rare example of community game design as there were no official rules or administrative body for chess at the time. The players simply saw a weakness, and decided it wasn't as much fun, so they "house ruled" it the same way you might ban a particularly overpowered Smash Bros character among your friend group.

Fighting game culture thrives on animation canceling, objectively an exploit of unintended functionality. Later fighting games folded this culture in to their designs AND normalized it. The best players found where the game was most broken and used it. The designers saw where the game was most broken and make it less so.

The "moneyball" tactic employed in major league baseball exploited a weakness in how teams were choosing players to field and sign. Other GMs reacted to this and moneyball became the management meta for not only baseball, but virtually all professional sports.

The "butterfly" technique in Gunz: the duel redefined how the game was played. The moment players master the technique they violated the core rules of the game and created what was effectively an entirely different experience. The developers did NOT react to this meta and lost control of their game not because they weren't good at PvP, but because they didn't understand how to design for PvP. They didn't want to take the exciting new high skillcap game away from those "butterfly" players that were still giving them money, but they couldn't find a way to marry that with the intended method of shooting, wallrunning, and otherwise more standard play as originally designed. Or perhaps they did. As I understand it you can't "butterfly" in Gunz 2 so perhaps their solution was to simply fork the game.

Exploiting weaknesses is how meta are created and change. Learning to see exploitable weaknesses at a systemic level is ALSO useful for designing those systems. Depending on the skill ceiling of your system being good at actually winning your own game may not be very useful. Knowing why other people are winning your game is what's important.

Edited by PopeUrban

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I say let's all eat roasted pine nuts and be joyous! I happen to like the direction Crowfall is going overall. I hope they don't end up dumbing it down like the former mistakes made in SWG. My only concern at this point is game balance between the factions. I suppose we will have to deal with that ourselves to keep things on an even keel. The fact that this game is not meant to be solo'd and that team effort wins, makes me happy.

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I agree with Pope, the best PvP designers are not the best PvP players, not by a long shot. The perfect PvP designer sits with his skill just above that of the average skill of the player base. That way he can design things to benefit his particular level of skill and in turn have them benefit the majority of the player base. He also needs a lot of general game design experience as well, obviously.

The ideas of the highest skill echelons of the playerbase are the ideas that you explicitly do NOT want to listen too. They typically represent a very small chunk of the player base and the majority of their ideas undermine the entertainment of the lower levels of the player base. They typically glorify the skill=power (as a linear equation that is) mentality, when really optimal game design is log(skill)=power. If anything the feedback one should take from highest skill players is to invert their feedback. Prosniper84 wants to make 360 no-scopes more powerful? It'll probably be to the benefit of the player base if we dump un-scoped accuracy, so that Prosniper84 and his friends don't curbstomp so hard.

In general the biggest example of this is raising or lowering the skill ceiling. Pro players ALWAYS want to raise the skill ceiling, as it gives them more room to grow and helps them stand more clearly above the rest. If they have their way however then many mid tier players will undervalue themselves, perceive the skill climb as being insurmountable and/or get jaded by being curb stomped by the elite, all of which can lead to them dropping the game.

Games are always about people having fun, the more the better (both fun and people), it's not worth increasing the fun for a tiny chunk of your fan base at the cost of decreasing it for the majority.

edit: Just noting that there is also a political lesson here, I won't get into it here but you can probably work it out.

Edited by Kastor

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Ill give an analogy. Would you rather have someone who is very good at playing Magic the gathering design new cards for the game, or someone who is crappy at the game (and likely doesn't understand the intricacies or depth of the game/strategy) develop new cards?  I am not arguing that being good at magic the gathering is sufficient to be a good card designer, but it is [close to being] necessary. 

I don't know about you, but I would rather have Grubby design a future RTS game than some below average player, and I would rather have Dendi design a new MOBA than a player, no matter how much they play Dota 2 just continues to be bad.

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–]axilmar 2 points 14 hours ago 

Not having Lore wasn't the problem of Darkfall. The real problem of the game is that it takes a lot of effort to have any short of fun with it. New DF players usually quit the first few days (actually, most of them the first 10 minutes!), because it really requires a huge effort to be able to enjoy it

This was taken from a conversation on a dark fall reddit and it really struck a cord with me. If crowfall takes too much effort just to enjoy the bare essentials, will people stick around to even get to the good stuff? What’s even a kicker is axilmar worked for the company that originally developed dark fall.

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48 minutes ago, izkimar said:

This was taken from a conversation on a dark fall reddit and it really struck a cord with me. If crowfall takes too much effort just to enjoy the bare essentials, will people stick around to even get to the good stuff? What’s even a kicker is axilmar worked for the company that originally developed dark fall.

Yea, of all the things that "concern" me, is the steep climb currently between the goal of having fun, and all the mechanics as presented.  I fear there is confusion between interesting and fun, and that fun is being hidden.

Quote

Lesson #5: Don't confuse "interesting" with "fun"

This is a concept we talk about a lot in R&D. It turns out that there are two different kinds of stimulation—intellectual stimulation and emotional stimulation. The first is about stimulating the ways in which you think. ("Hmm, that's very interesting.") The second is about generating an emotional response. ("Ooh, that's fun!")

 

Lesson #13: Make the fun part also the correct strategy to win

It's not the players' job to find the fun. It is your job as the game designer to put the fun where the players can't help but find it.....Fun cannot be tangential; it has to be the core component of your game experience. 

I hope that is simply a symptom of the open development process, and the unfinished game loop, and that ACE will circle back around to put people on the correct experiential path once all those are in place.

I mean the vision for the game sounds fun, and since it's not finished that by definition means the fun may no be there.  Kinda like how bike can be fully assembled, but if there is no air in the tires it's basically useless. 

Maybe we are just missing air, and it's the last thing usually put in.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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