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Helix

Is crowfall fundamentally boring?

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1 hour ago, Mykro said:

Ill give an analogy. Would you rather have someone who is very good at playing Magic the gathering design new cards for the game, or someone who is crappy at the game (and likely doesn't understand the intricacies or depth of the game/strategy) develop new cards?  I am not arguing that being good at magic the gathering is sufficient to be a good card designer, but it is [close to being] necessary. 

I don't know about you, but I would rather have Grubby design a future RTS game than some below average player, and I would rather have Dendi design a new MOBA than a player, no matter how much they play Dota 2 just continues to be bad.

STAWMAN! I said you want an above average player, not a "crappy player" or a "below average player". You want someone who understands that the deep intricacies exist, but not someone who wants to cater to them.

And actually no, I don't want Grubby or Dendi making games as they would make games that have too high a skill curve to be approachable to the average players.

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4 hours ago, Mykro said:

Ill give an analogy. Would you rather have someone who is very good at playing Magic the gathering design new cards for the game, or someone who is crappy at the game (and likely doesn't understand the intricacies or depth of the game/strategy) develop new cards?  I am not arguing that being good at magic the gathering is sufficient to be a good card designer, but it is [close to being] necessary. 

I don't know about you, but I would rather have Grubby design a future RTS game than some below average player, and I would rather have Dendi design a new MOBA than a player, no matter how much they play Dota 2 just continues to be bad.

There's something you're missing about the design of a game like crowfall specifically.

In any given RTS or MOBA there are purposely very few players in a given matchup. Most RTS games top out at 8 players total, but in a competitive space they are generally head to head 1v1 affairs. The typical MOBA, as inherited from DOTA is a 5v5. The same is present in CCG games like magic.

These are designs primarily built to serve a very large number of players at different levels of skill by segregating them in to extremely small ranking bubbles. This design is present in fighting games and many other types of competitive games where you can see clear design intent and balance to design elements of the game for various skill sectors. There are some great blog posts by designers of MTG and LoL on this kind of thing specifically. Stuff like why they don't nerf pubstoming champions or why they deliberately design cards or champions that are objectively bad in high level play. What it comes down to is that the concerns of high level players in a system like that are irrelevent to the vast majority of their player base, and that their first responsibility is to create a game that is as enjoyable to the low ranked newbie as it is to the super diamond whatever tier pro. That's why you only ever see the same 15 of so heroes in high rank LoL or DOTA matches despite the game having, maintining, and continually balancing three times or more heroes.

A game like Crowfall is built specifically to avoid segregating players in to extremely small skill brackets. The entire function of the design is to throw as many people as possible in to extremely large servers with extremely large numbers of adversaries and allies. The "skill brackets" are so broad and the number of players required to perform at a sufficient level of competancy necessitates a somewhat different design approach. In general, systems that reward too high of a skill ceiling don't work for mass combat because on average the number of players that can reach and benefit from that ceiling is so small that it becomes an unfun scenario for both the highly skilled player and the average player. The highly skilled player is so unlikely to encounter anything that constitutes a threat that they get bored and eventually quit. The average skilled player, when faced with the reality that players exist (and often these players seek one another out and roam in groups) that are virtually unassailable due to pure mechanical skill become frustrated because they're heavily outclassed and a small group of players is winning what seems like an disproportionate amount of victories compared to what they "should be"

Because the required player numbers are so large, the distance between the skill floor and ceiling has to be much smaller than in a MOBA or fighting game or CCG to actually make a competitive experience that is fun for everyone involved. Your BEST players still need your AVERAGE players to present some sort of challenge because by and large they will be fighting average players, not players at their own skill level. Your AVERAGE players need to be not completely blown out of the water by your BEST players because your entire game design isn't about being the best player, but the best massed army of players. A system that allows someone with exceptional skill to cut down 20 average players as they could in a perfectly good FPS design creates a pretty  frustrating dynamic for open PvP.

While there's merit to a "by pros for pros" design in more structured games with less players in a given match that sort of design ethos doesn't serve the core goals of a competitive MMO in the same manner. I'd also argue that a game designed in such a manner may be a hard sell to the general public, who may be enthusiastic about the genre of game and enjoy playing it but are by definition mostly average players who are going to have the most fun in systems where average players have systems with which they can achieve a largely even win/loss record against the hundreds or thousands of potential opponents of wildly different skill levels on their servers.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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On 24/04/2018 at 11:00 PM, PopeUrban said:

...

I agree with most of what you said in your previous post. The problem is that you seem to take things to either one extreme or the other when I see you in these forum discussions lol. You're talking about the infeasibility of a "CS:GO proskill MMO" because of the lack of ranking brackets, and yes, I agree. But there's an entire spectrum in the skill level a combat system can have. At least from my part, all I was really talking about is that I firmly believe that a dev that understands the intricacies of action pvp combat will make a better, more balanced and more layered combat system that requires more than just spamming keys in the general direction of the red dots, than a dev who has no such experience in his resume. He doesn't have to be a teenager grandmaster player trying to cater only to the highest possible skill ceiling. 

Also I would rather play a game that allows more skilled players to curbstomp me, because at least then I know I have room to improve and get better (not all players quit after being curbstomped, some see that as an encouragement to get better), than a game that is simply about which side has the highest training/gear, specially in a game where skill training is passive like CF. A fight that is decided before it even starts based solely on who has the higher level or better gear is just so mind numbing boring, it defeats the entire purpose of pvp to me. The Division turned out just like that, see how fun pvp is there. 


 

 

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On 4/29/2018 at 10:10 AM, Rikutatis said:

A fight that is decided before it even starts based solely on who has the higher level or better gear is just so mind numbing boring, it defeats the entire purpose of pvp to me. The Division turned out just like that, see how fun pvp is there. 

If you want your economy to matter, gear HAS to be a large factor in deciding the outcome of a given fight. Crowfall does a pretty good job of making gear important but getting "minimum competitive" gear cheap enough you can quickly afford it, but expensive enough you don't want to waste it. I don't want to play a game where all I care about is "a sword" and I want to be excited to get a "better" sword because I can see the difference in what it does for me on field. Similarly, in a group focused open world game I don't want to have a fair shot against everyone I run up to. Well designed open world pvp, in my opinion, means systems of hard counters and economic leverage that require you to look at some fights and go "nope" because learning and subverting assumptions about players around you, their gear level, their basic build, their playstyle, etc. should be important. Players should be able to outgear me for significant advantage and it should be part of my job to learn which fish are bigger than me, which are smaller, which types of build hard counter mine, and in general I should be just as encouraged to outsmart other players as outfight them. Otherwise I see little point in playing an MMO. If I just want to fight people I could go play a game where I just log in and fight people.

Division's problem is that it limited itself to a very small set of gameplay verbs. Any given character in Division is just a stack of the same numbers basically. There's not really a concept of builds or creative play that engenders a design where gear SHOULD matter. PvP in that game is like adding a gear grind to Battlefield. It feels bad because the shooter game they actually designed is not a game where its any fun to find or use new gear. Contrast that with something like borderlands, also a shooter, but with a lot of wildly different abilities, weapon functionality, etc.

Division's PvP has the "bad RPG" problem of trying to use simply stacking more damage and mitigation numbers as advancement rather than giving players solid opportunities for buildcraft or stat tradeoffs. Every single piece of gear does the same thing with slightly bigger numbers, and the actions the player can perform are mostly just shooting people. What they missed was that much of the kinetic enjoyment you get out of a shooter comes from faster KDR setups that prize quick decision loops with a very small amount of possible actions.

Division's PvP isn't bad because the gear is too important. Division pvp is bad because the gear design is boring. Same problem they had with their PvE early on when it was just the same enemies as giant bullet sponges. Same PvP problem as Destiny and most other mmolite/shooter hybrids. The fun you're getting out of those systems in mostly going to be limited to PvE because the vast majority of the variation that's actually fun and makes you feel good about grinding better gear doesn't come from fighting the same thing (players) with the same gear (player loot) but the fun generally comes from fighting new threats (new mob designs/behaviors/ mechanics) that make you use the same gears (with bigger numbers) in new ways.

PvP with a gear component has to make gear a critical component of a "build" and the problem with Division and games like it is that often either there isn't really a concept of buildcraft or the builds on offer are designed for the power fantasy of PvE and don't translate their mechanics well to PvP.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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From reading the last few posts, it looks like this thread has moved very far from where it started, but I will address the concerns in the OP.

To sum up the OP, the game is a grind and not fun.

Currently, yes, the game is a grind, though it's entirely subjective as to whether people find that fun or not. I enjoy gathering and crafting. I don't find them boring. Regardless, none of this really means much at this point in the game. 

The OP clearly wants to fight other players and not be bothered with harvesting or crafting. That's totally fine, but the support structure doesn't exist in the game yet for players to do that. If you are going to forego harvesting and crafting, then you need other players who will be doing the harvesting and crafting for you. Some of that exists now to an extent, but not to the levels it will when there is a much larger population. Gear WILL be much easier to get because the people who will be harvesting and crafting will be the ones who enjoy doing it and are trained to do it. They will get resources much faster than the non-trained people and they will produce higher quality gear faster than the non-trained people.

Of course harvesting and crafting are a grind if you aren't trained for it. Getting the required resources to craft is going to take much longer.

Beyond that, there are things coming which will make it less of a grind. The Season of Plenty buff coming in 5.6 will make everyone, trained or not, better harvesters. And when factories are added to the game, trained crafters will be able to produce higher quality gear with less overall effort.

I think it's premature to judge how fun a game is in pre-alpha when we are only getting a max of 40-50 people per campaign. The devs have done what they can to make it fun for us to test, but it is still just a test. That's not to say that people shouldn't voice their concerns, but with that should come an understanding of where the game is currently at in development and what is coming in the future. 

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8 hours ago, Arkade said:

The OP clearly wants to fight other players and not be bothered with harvesting or crafting. That's totally fine, but the support structure doesn't exist in the game yet for players to do that. If you are going to forego harvesting and crafting, then you need other players who will be doing the harvesting and crafting for you. Some of that exists now to an extent, but not to the levels it will when there is a much larger population. Gear WILL be much easier to get because the people who will be harvesting and crafting will be the ones who enjoy doing it and are trained to do it. They will get resources much faster than the non-trained people and they will produce higher quality gear faster than the non-trained people.

I think this is an important point that is being overlooked constantly.  The game is built around guilds and communities.  If you're only interested in combat then you 100% will need the support of a guild so you can focus on just that.

Does gathering/crafting all of your own gear feel like a long grind?  That's because it's not meant to be done by one person, especially at the start.  

When you first start playing the game you will suck, there's no way around that.  But with the support of a guild you can easily become well equipped and participate in battles where you can learn how to fight.  

Crowfall isn't built for solo players or small groups.  Everything is built around collaborative efforts of large groups, guilds, factions and communities.  This game is not for people who want to do everything themselves without any help.

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Please not another grind fest game  we have AA, BDO, AO and others that fill that need already.  Each day I become less and less convinced this is a game that I will ever play.

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*disclaimer* This may have already been said, but i'm not reading through 15 pages to make sure.

The fun in sandbox MMOs comes from the interpersonal conflicts between people or groups in a competitive situation with no real consequences to your actions.

The common denominator is people,  3 thousand people is going to be exponentially more fun then 30 because enjoyment is based on interaction amongst players, both positively and negatively. The more people in that world , the more chances for enjoyable interaction.

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On 3/22/2018 at 10:24 AM, Helix said:

Is crowfall boring?

Does it feel like a tedious chore?

Is the amount of time investment to get ready to the "juicy" parts of crowfall far too much?

Does harvesting and crafting suck?

Should there be less of a time investment in needing to gather? Should gear be faster to acquire? (At least the lower tiers: white, green).

Does combat feel far too basic?

Is skill training boring?

IMO, yes to all of the above (excluding crafting, which I actually think is quite good, just not the amount of mats required to craft the lowest tier of armor), and with soft launch supposedly this year I can see the game heading to a reckoning of sorts (word on the streets already is extremely critical if not down right negative).

Crowfall is in an extremely weird place. It's a heavily focused pvp game that's also supposedly trying to reach across the "aisle" and ensnare those mindcraft/landmark type players that like to run around 8 hours a day hitting rocks and building stuff. Unfortunately for those players, the vast majority of people who play crowfall are going to be stone cold killers that only want to gank and pillage. All their efforts will be for not, and getting repeatedly ganked will surely drive these type of players away. These two groups are vast different, and fairly incompatible. I fear the game will end up with two types of disillusioned players. The harvesters that just want to go out and hit rocks only to get killed, and the killers that are forced to go out and hit rocks because there aren't enough people who want to harvest (either because they've been driven away from the game, or because there simply isn't enough in the first place). The crafters will suffer because they won't have the mats required to manufacture armor and provide for the masses, so they too will be forced in to the tedious chore of having to harvest.

This isn't too far off from where we are now. 

I've seen the game regress a little bit more and more in the fun factor with the increasing emphasis on harvesting. I've harvested in other games, but it's different with crowfall. It's literally the most mind-numbing dull experience I've ever experienced in a video game. I'm not sure how they can improve it either besides drastically increasing the mats you receive and reducing the amount of time and effort necessary to acquire those mats and get your gear so you can actually "start" playing. Harvesting is simply not fun, yet the majority of players are forced to do it, and it eventually ends up monopolizing a large percentage of your play time in crowfall. 

I'm worried about the game. Everyone I've tried to sell on the idea has pretty much shrugged it off once I started talking about how harvesting and crafting is so vital to your character progression. It's not like gear isn't important, and the variance between gear statistically is significant.

It's not just the harvesting that's boring. It's the combat and class design too.

Combat and class design feels extremely sterile and one-dimensional. Combat literally revolves around spamming LMB, attacks are weightless and the base ability kits of most of the classes feel far too bland and "safe". Combat and class design is in a desperate need of an overhaul; doubtful considering what's already on the devs plate and a supposed soft launch deadline.

I'm interested in what others thing, I'm already readily anticipating the "this is a test, not the game" and "there is no game loop yet" arguments. Valid perhaps, but I think there is enough "game" here to at least see what direction they're going.

You spend more time crafting and gathering than you do PvPing.  It's Craftfall with a dash of PvP. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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14 hours ago, mandalore said:

You spend more time crafting and gathering than you do PvPing.  It's Craftfall with a dash of PvP. 

That's to be expected when there are only 10-15 people playing at a time.

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4 hours ago, Arkade said:

That's to be expected when there are only 10-15 people playing at a time.

Not to sound like a snob but I think this is one of those things that players who didn't play Shadowbane worry about. In fact I feel like this type of game provides a more psychologically enriching experience as it lets you push moral boundaries in a consequence free environment. I for example would never rob and kill you in real life, but i would in game, thus letting me psychologically explore that power dynamic in a fantasy. There is a level of immersion that you don't get from mindlessly following of quests in the WoW format.

Also as I look back to the olden days of SB (like 2003) it was amazing how fast things would escalate. To think about how many server wars were catalyzed by one farming group killing another...People should never underestimate petty revenge as a content creator.

Edited by Vonsnazzy

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I'd rather kill you and rob you in RL than in the game but eh that's just me. 

 

The amount to craft is still skewed too high imo, it takes way to long to farm and craft gear.  The decay of gear not working fully also plays a part in that dynamic.  Just seems like you're always farming gear, or somebody is always farming gear.  The stockpiles needed for large wars to happen might be obtainable but at what price and in the end aren't those fights what they are building this for?


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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29 minutes ago, mandalore said:

I'd rather kill you and rob you in RL than in the game but eh that's just me. 

 

The amount to craft is still skewed too high imo, it takes way to long to farm and craft gear.  The decay of gear not working fully also plays a part in that dynamic.  Just seems like you're always farming gear, or somebody is always farming gear.  The stockpiles needed for large wars to happen might be obtainable but at what price and in the end aren't those fights what they are building this for?

That's a balancing issue which won't be addressed until the game is further along. We don't have all of the variables yet. Larger population. Factories. Seasonal buffs. Crafting disciplines. All of these things will have an effect on the balance between harvesting, crafting and fighting. Once everything is in place, then they can look at numbers and tweak things if they need to.

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It is kind of boring at this point. It has mediocre PvP combat and very poor PvE combat for an MMO. Outside of combat  the exploration, resource gathering, crafting and base building range from decent to poor compared to other sandbox base builders like ARK and Conan. The game just doesn't do anything well in practice or concept at this point.

 

 


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Crowfall had potential at some point, but there's just not enough of a vision.  Their entire focus should have been on a shadowbane-esque PvP format with poorly made socks just fixed, and a lot more content.  It's like they don't even know their audience.  It's literally 25-45 y/o guys who played PvP games and want to recapture the magic of the freedom early MMOs granted players.  Most of us have jobs, are older, and can't dedicate the time for stupid grinds.  We're focused on maximizing our fun time, and want more meaningful interactions than kids.

1) Resources are a means to an end.  They should be able to be passively mined and captured in a multitude of ways that are easy if no other players challenge you.  How to stop this from getting boring fast if competition dies down? Just make marginal gains in equipment have exponentially high costs and have equipment permanently deteriorate.  It would be easy to build a few systems here that give diminishing returns on control which old games didn't have.  So much can be done here, but one things for sure: the answer isn't a grind.

2) Skill training is the least fun thing possible.  Some instant gratification is good.  Hitting "train" and getting powerful is custard fine.  The passive skill system literally made me not want any part of crowfall after hearing about it years ago.  I'd put up with it if everything else was golden, but it's ridiculously stupid.  It's not for people with less time.  It's for people who just want to micromanage hogwash all day.  Just let progression be fast and use diminishing returns after a certain point, but don't cap progress.  

3) Choices are fun.  The class system should be insanely convoluted, but simple at the same time.  Just give a custardton of choices, but keep it simple.  I want to be able to choose between 40 classes with 40 abilities each and another 200 abilities that anyone can get.  Give me limited points to work with.  Let me actually be creative without having to dump time.  These things are easy to do if you don't try to make some insanely aim based game with lots of physics interactions that bottleneck everything.  Even if progression is fast it would still take you 20 years to try out every possible combination.

4) Spam left clicking isn't fun after a few days.  FPS's will always do it better, and be much smoother too.   What's so bad about tab target?  It's EASY to implement and PROVEN to be superbly fun and opens massive DESIGN SPACE for fun abilities that are quick to market.  If this game was tab target, it would have been live by 2016 and much bigger by now.  The combat would actually be fun, and the game would run much smoother.  Older games combat systems are still custard fun 2 decades later.  This is easily their greatest mistake.

5) We want our custard consequence back.  I don't want temporary worlds.  I don't want rules.  Want to use them as a side aspect of the game? Fine.  Want to use them as a place to restart if you lose the main game? Fine, that might not even be a bad idea.  There's a lot of ways to make consequence not cripple the game.  I want the adrenaline rush of defending something I actually care about.  I'm still friends with people from shadowbane because we shared memorable experiences we can still talk about.  I have no remaining internet friends from the past 10 years of playing random games.  There's nothing to talk about once the game is over.  There's no intrigue, politics, passion, or anything.  Just headshots and mountain dew.  

But yea this poorly made socks was obvious half a decade ago.  The developers lack vision, are afraid to challenge their past failures, and lack the balls to make the drastic changes they need to.  After they did the bait and switch from play2crush.com to "appease everyone and raise money" it was obvious which path they chose.

also hi caffy, ftp fo lyfe.

Edited by frobobo

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1 hour ago, frobobo said:

words

1. You can get enough resources to have a full set of gear in under an hour once trained, and gear lasts roughly twelve deaths. Is it to grindy? Maybe, but once factories are online gear will be very easy to make and distribute.

2. You don't want to grind stuff, but don't like the skill system designed to make grinding have diminishing returns. The skill system is pretty boring, but they have said they want to add a more active component to building your character.

3. More races/classes/abilities are always good. I'd assume this is just the start to get the game going. With their motorization system there's incentive to have expansions with more of the above coming out.

4. After playing another tab target games in the last few weeks I have to say I love Crowfalls combat system. It has bugs and issues, but overall its way more fun.

5. Dying worlds create the opportunity for guilds to win/lose at a faster rate. This allows empires to fall, and lets less established groups challenge the juggernauts at a faster rate. Yes, this does lessen the sense of conquest for a dominating guild, but it also guarantees they will have PvP when the campaigns reset. No one is going to stick around if they are dominating and have zero competition; its dull for all parties involved. Hey remember when we won campaign x and crushed guild y will be a common topic of conversation for Crowfall players.

You claim they lack vision, and balls to make the changes. And yet, you criticize the game for changes made from Shadowbane. 

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15 hours ago, frobobo said:

But yea this poorly made socks was obvious half a decade ago.  The developers lack vision, are afraid to challenge their past failures, and lack the balls to make the drastic changes they need to.  After they did the bait and switch from play2crush.com to "appease everyone and raise money" it was obvious which path they chose.

While I agree with many of your points, I don't believe they lack vision or whatever. I bought in with the initial concept of more "play2crush," but believe they simply are going in the direction they believe will result in the game they want to create, be it for cash or not. Their vision is theirs, not what we want it to be and it is an ongoing process.

As is, I see the game being less popular and profitable than if they had gone with a more "hardcore" or old school design. They seem to want to appeal to a wider audience, of which I don't see actually wanting this particular set of features. Plenty of people backed the basic concept stuff early on, but it was concept and not fleshed out. What we have now and what is coming is rather different IMO. Not sure those same folks will be back or care for the final product nor will there be some unknown number out in gamerland looking for this.

I like a lot of what they want to do, at least on paper, but so far the implementation is falling flat for me. Went from a game where those with lives could potentially get in and out relatively easy (passive training, no extensive PVE/grinds) to more active training, passive system rewarding those that pay more, PVE becoming more than just environmental dangers, grindy gameplay, etc. Plenty is missing and in the works though so can't call it just yet.

While the devs or at least a few of them were part of the teams for games many have played, they were just one of many. Honestly believe people give too much credit and expect too much from them, take that how you will. Just because X was part of Y game that did Z great, doesn't mean they can magically make that happen in a completely different game with a different team, game market, community, and so on. Making Shadowbane 2.0 might have worked, but we'll never known.

Is what it is. Don't like it, don't play it. That's what I'll be doing if it doesn't hit the spot for me. I've backed a few of these upcoming games, let the best one win my time and money. Or I'll just do something else with those...

Edited by APE

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I logged in for the first time since first release pre-alpha when it wasn't really playable.  I don't really follow updates because sometimes it feels like watching paint dry so forgive me that I'm not current on information regarding the game.  That said, I played for a 25 minutes and logged out.  More time should be invested into rethinking those first minutes of game play.  I almost laughed when I realized that my first task in a game was to go hit trees with my fist.  In 1999 I loaded into Everquest for the first time and, as boring as swinging my sword at rats for a half an hour was, it was more interesting then what you have so far. 

 


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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58 minutes ago, tsp_maj said:

I logged in for the first time since first release pre-alpha when it wasn't really playable.  I don't really follow updates because sometimes it feels like watching paint dry so forgive me that I'm not current on information regarding the game.  That said, I played for a 25 minutes and logged out.  More time should be invested into rethinking those first minutes of game play.  I almost laughed when I realized that my first task in a game was to go hit trees with my fist.  In 1999 I loaded into Everquest for the first time and, as boring as swinging my sword at rats for a half an hour was, it was more interesting then what you have so far. 

 

Kind of funny that punching three whole trees about 20 feet from where your character creation spawns you for a whole 90 seconds puts you off...   you sure won't make it through those first 10 thirty minute harvest runs it takes to get crappy advanced gear and help gear out your crew.    None of this is really that hard to understand...   a player crafted gear economy will not exist if it isn't a time sink to get the materials or make the goods.

The real issue is still world pop limits that busts the ping...   some good fights out there,  just have to avoid the high pop times when lag wins.   I sure hope every patch improves performance.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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