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Is crowfall fundamentally boring?

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1 minute ago, Frykka said:

Kind of funny that punching three whole trees about 20 feet from where your character creation spawns you for a whole 90 seconds puts you off...   you sure won't make it through those 20 on hour harvest runs it takes to get crappy advanced gear and help gear out your crew.    None of this is really that hard to understand...   a player crafted gear economy will not exist if it isn't a time sink to get the materials or make the goods.

The real issue is still world pop limits that busts the ping...   some good fights out there just have to avoid the high pop times when lag wins.   I sure hope every patch improves performance.

You're right, if there are 20+ hour harvest runs I won't make it.  Then again, the game will have failed and it wont really matter at that point.  Assuming you're one of the few people that would put up with such poor game design, I guess you'll have all the time you want to click on trees because nobody will be there to stop you.


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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8 minutes ago, tsp_maj said:

You're right, if there are 20+ hour harvest runs I won't make it.  Then again, the game will have failed and it wont really matter at that point.  Assuming you're one of the few people that would put up with such poor game design, I guess you'll have all the time you want to click on trees because nobody will be there to stop you.

It wasn't any different in SB, Archeage, Albion, etc...   I am happy to be free to do what I want with my time and not some silly quest story line.   I am sorry if teamwork and commitment to crushing takes some dedication.   It is very different when you stay at the front of the gear curve though.


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11 minutes ago, tsp_maj said:

You're right, if there are 20+ hour harvest runs I won't make it.  Then again, the game will have failed and it wont really matter at that point.  Assuming you're one of the few people that would put up with such poor game design, I guess you'll have all the time you want to click on trees because nobody will be there to stop you.

When you say that I assume you have never actually had to compete economically in a game as well as strategically...  it is a lot more fun and rewarding doing it as a group...   you know the jokes, banter, etc going on that makes a harvest run ok until the enemy shows up.


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1 minute ago, Frykka said:

When you say that I assume you have never actually had to compete economically in a game as well as strategically...  it is a lot more fun and rewarding doing it as a group...   you know the jokes, banter, etc going on that makes a harvest run ok until the enemy shows up.

Let's not get into a presumption war of each others experience with magical pixels.  There is a distinct difference between what someone is willing to do in the first 20 minutes of a game, and what they will do when the guild depends on them.  The former is what I think is significant to the current discussion.  Even if you could convince me that hitting trees with my fist is good game design, you'll have a hard time convincing me that it's the ideal first experience in a game. 

Perhaps if you try making an argument instead of just accusing me of not being able to hack it you'd be more successful.


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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5 minutes ago, tsp_maj said:

Let's not get into a presumption war of each others experience with magical pixels.  There is a distinct difference between what someone is willing to do in the first 20 minutes of a game, and what they will do when the guild depends on them.  The former is what I think is significant to the current discussion.  Even if you could convince me that hitting trees with my fist is good game design, you'll have a hard time convincing me that it's the ideal first experience in a game. 

Perhaps if you try making an argument instead of just accusing me of not being able to hack it you'd be more successful.

Would it make you feel better if you went to a quest giver first who said to go punch those trees and come back and Ill give you an axe?   Then  he sent you to chop and return with 20 logs upon which he gave you a pick...   etc...   I think part of your issue is being lost without quest chains at the start.   I am not warring words, just making the argument that most games lead you around by the nose with a story and that keeps your mind off of the drone of what you are actually doing.   My point is that I like the freedom to do it as I choose after those first 3 trees we all have to punch.

Edited by Frykka

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Just now, Frykka said:

Would it make you feel better if you went to a quest giver first who said to go punch those trees and come back and Ill give you an axe?   Then  he sent you to chop and return with 20 logs upon which he gave you a pick...   etc...   I think part of your issue is being lost without quest chains at the start.   I am not warring words, just making the argument that most games lead you around by the nose with a story and that keeps you mind off of the drone of what you are actually doing.   My point is that I like the freedom to do it as I choose after those first 3 trees we all have to punch.

You're pretty far off the mark.  My point is that the crafting of basic equipment is unnecessarily tedious.  Whether or not there's a yellow question mark involved, my first 20 minutes in the game is not full of choices, first hit three trees, then this.. then this..

Start me out with all the basic equipment and let me chose to fight, or work on upgrading equipment. 


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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13 minutes ago, tsp_maj said:

You're pretty far off the mark.  My point is that the crafting of basic equipment is unnecessarily tedious.  Whether or not there's a yellow question mark involved, my first 20 minutes in the game is not full of choices, first hit three trees, then this.. then this..

Start me out with all the basic equipment and let me chose to fight, or work on upgrading equipment. 

My point is that then you have no relative value for the effort...    until you see the items in a player vendor at 2k gold and how long it takes you to farm that much gold off mobs.  The time and effort to make basic gear, a blink of an eye relative to advanced gear, about 10 minutes in actuality, is still of value to the economy.    The point is to have nothing be free and everything be player driven, player made...   and I staunchly agree with that premise and there are certainly enough players who understand how a player driven economy works and want a real game that has this as its core and large scale PvP as its end game to fill the niche.   One mans tedious is another mans profit, that is how economies roll, without it you have no game at all.

Edited by Frykka

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1 minute ago, Frykka said:

My point is that then you have no relative value for the effort...    until you see the items in a player vendor at 2k gold and how long it takes you to farm that much gold off mobs.  The time and effort to make basic gear, a blink of an eye relative to advanced gear, about 10 minutes in actuality, is still of value to the economy.    The point is to have nothing be free and everything be player driven, player made...   and I staunchly agree with that premise and there are certainly enough players who understand how a player driven economy works and want a real game that has this as its core and large scale PvP as its end game to fill the niche.   One mans tedious is another mans profit, that is how economies roll, without it you have no game at all.

Though there are many aspects to a player economy, there is one thing required above all.  Players.  I think you underestimate the importance of the first few moments of gameplay when it comes to getting people hooked.  My argument is that the impact to the economy of the entire game is not going to be influenced by having a base zero value starter load out enough to make a sacrifice to the new player experience.  By making the first 30 minutes actually fun, you're going to have a lot more people driving you economy, and playing your game.

Though I appreciate your concept of "one mans tedious is another mans profit", it doesn't apply here.  Without equipment I cant even get money to pay you for equipment.  At the very basic level your economy concept is broken because everyone makes their own, and nobody has any currency to purchase something. 


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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42 minutes ago, tsp_maj said:

Though there are many aspects to a player economy, there is one thing required above all.  Players.  I think you underestimate the importance of the first few moments of gameplay when it comes to getting people hooked.  My argument is that the impact to the economy of the entire game is not going to be influenced by having a base zero value starter load out enough to make a sacrifice to the new player experience.  By making the first 30 minutes actually fun, you're going to have a lot more people driving you economy, and playing your game.

Though I appreciate your concept of "one mans tedious is another mans profit", it doesn't apply here.  Without equipment I cant even get money to pay you for equipment.  At the very basic level your economy concept is broken because everyone makes their own, and nobody has any currency to purchase something. 

Basic equipment is pretty wet noodle...  we know all too well that if we give you basic equipment the next issue is that now you can kill things but they do not drop better equipment like in a theme park type game...   now you have a tediousness to grinding mobs for coin and we all know you have to kill higher level mobs and lots of them to get enough coin for new gear and this process is less efficient than playing with a coordinated group who is dividing the work efficiently to gather all kinds of materials and just make the gear...  then you find some PvP and have a little fun and then die a couple times and all your gear breaks...   back to square one?   You will need to have backup gear and a way to resupply as well as upgrade...  You will find that to keep a crew geared it will take an group of dedicated people behind you that like you and that your efforts will also benefit or the bottom falls out.   Some players will get knocked in the teeth, crushed and back to square one.   It is that kind of game and to keep yourself from that result it will require effort, continuous effort.   My opinion is that if you find making basic gear tedious then you are in for many more rude awakenings for the next tier and the next.   You absolutely should know what you are getting into and that process starts with punching 3 trees and then 1000s more.   There is no way around it so why make the first step feel easier.


But we also do not have the whole game loop, this is only a piece but a fundamental piece.    After the player economy actually matures there will be opportunists who will make money buying and selling raw materials and crafted pieces...   but the initial race is and will always be one for resources and to ignore the resource race is to fundamentally ignore the core of the game.   Maybe there will be some hook or easy start, I really don't care because it will all come back to the resource race and if you don't participate, se la vie.

Edited by Frykka

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31 minutes ago, tsp_maj said:

Though there are many aspects to a player economy, there is one thing required above all.  Players.  I think you underestimate the importance of the first few moments of gameplay when it comes to getting people hooked.  My argument is that the impact to the economy of the entire game is not going to be influenced by having a base zero value starter load out enough to make a sacrifice to the new player experience.  By making the first 30 minutes actually fun, you're going to have a lot more people driving you economy, and playing your game.

Though I appreciate your concept of "one mans tedious is another mans profit", it doesn't apply here.  Without equipment I cant even get money to pay you for equipment.  At the very basic level your economy concept is broken because everyone makes their own, and nobody has any currency to purchase something. 

how does that concept not apply here? most mmos that you start dont give u anything. you walk to a quest giver and read through dialogue and either gather items or talk to another quest npc to receive basic wep then it progresses. the amount of time it would take to knock down 3 trees and make an axe is less than a minute. less than 5mins to make a basic weapon. Look nobody will force you to like this idea but you cannot force anyone not too. how can you say nobody will play when server stability is biggest aggrevation atm not what your saying it is. Maybe you do not fully understand the game yet or maybe you never played long enough. take a break come back in a couple months. but no need to come here with a closed mind and argue for no reason. hopefully things work out for you and if you would like some help starting out and are on Order side on Live East hit me up. Most are willing to show new folks the ropes or help out. Goodluck! 

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3 hours ago, tsp_maj said:

Though there are many aspects to a player economy, there is one thing required above all.  Players.  I think you underestimate the importance of the first few moments of gameplay when it comes to getting people hooked. 

The game is still in pre-alpha. The new player experience hasn't been finished/tuned yet.

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3 hours ago, Xalon said:

how does that concept not apply here? most mmos that you start dont give u anything. you walk to a quest giver and read through dialogue and either gather items or talk to another quest npc to receive basic wep then it progresses. the amount of time it would take to knock down 3 trees and make an axe is less than a minute. less than 5mins to make a basic weapon. Look nobody will force you to like this idea but you cannot force anyone not too. how can you say nobody will play when server stability is biggest aggrevation atm not what your saying it is. Maybe you do not fully understand the game yet or maybe you never played long enough. take a break come back in a couple months. but no need to come here with a closed mind and argue for no reason. hopefully things work out for you and if you would like some help starting out and are on Order side on Live East hit me up. Most are willing to show new folks the ropes or help out. Goodluck! 

I beg to differ, I don't think I can recall a single MMO that I've played where I didn't start off with some kind of basic weapon, even though I think your point is irrelevant.  Stability may be a big deal to you, but its far from the only problem.  The game isn't fun right now, and its ok to admit that.


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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3 hours ago, Frykka said:

Basic equipment is pretty wet noodle...  we know all too well that if we give you basic equipment the next issue is that now you can kill things but they do not drop better equipment like in a theme park type game...   now you have a tediousness to grinding mobs for coin and we all know you have to kill higher level mobs and lots of them to get enough coin for new gear and this process is less efficient than playing with a coordinated group who is dividing the work efficiently to gather all kinds of materials and just make the gear...  then you find some PvP and have a little fun and then die a couple times and all your gear breaks...   back to square one?   You will need to have backup gear and a way to resupply as well as upgrade...  You will find that to keep a crew geared it will take an group of dedicated people behind you that like you and that your efforts will also benefit or the bottom falls out.   Some players will get knocked in the teeth, crushed and back to square one.   It is that kind of game and to keep yourself from that result it will require effort, continuous effort.   My opinion is that if you find making basic gear tedious then you are in for many more rude awakenings for the next tier and the next.   You absolutely should know what you are getting into and that process starts with punching 3 trees and then 1000s more.   There is no way around it so why make the first step feel easier.


But we also do not have the whole game loop, this is only a piece but a fundamental piece.    After the player economy actually matures there will be opportunists who will make money buying and selling raw materials and crafted pieces...   but the initial race is and will always be one for resources and to ignore the resource race is to fundamentally ignore the core of the game.   Maybe there will be some hook or easy start, I really don't care because it will all come back to the resource race and if you don't participate, se la vie.

I really hope that this doesn't happen the way you imagine.  Mainly because I think we're interested in two totally different games.  In my vision resources will be acquired through PVP action and conquest, in moments of high intensity as opposed to a long drawn out contest of who can hit the most trees over the longest period.  Your system is broke and you are too blind to see it.  There are other ways, far more interesting ways to "gear" up, that are actually enjoyable.  I hope you're wrong, because if you're not this game isn't going to last long in my opinion.


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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1 hour ago, tsp_maj said:

I really hope that this doesn't happen the way you imagine.  Mainly because I think we're interested in two totally different games.  In my vision resources will be acquired through PVP action and conquest, in moments of high intensity as opposed to a long drawn out contest of who can hit the most trees over the longest period.  Your system is broke and you are too blind to see it.  There are other ways, far more interesting ways to "gear" up, that are actually enjoyable.  I hope you're wrong, because if you're not this game isn't going to last long in my opinion.

There is a minor disc that currently drops from the spider queen and is not crafted...   there may be more small and specific items like this one as well as lots of crating additives that will drop but the game has, from the get go, been designed and planned to have a player driven economy based on crafted gear.   You will not be able to gear up without relying on the harvest-craft-vending economic loop.   You being a vested Money forums backer, it surprises me that you do not know this, it is common knowledge and has been for the 3 years of development.   This is what I bought into in 2015 and have tested in every patch since Hungerdome and particularly as Big world 3.0 brought us the harvesting and crafting as the source of gear.   It is not my imagination, it is reality.


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We don’t know the impact campaigns will have in this game yet.

look at seasons and soft resets other games like diablo3 and alpha beta Albion have done the influx of people that they get or got when they reset everything is crazy.

people want the chance to start fresh every now and again I hope campaigns will allow them to experience that while progressing their toon every time the enter and leave a campaign.

we still don’t have a complete cogwheel yet but for me this game looks like it won’t be boring for some reason.

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2 hours ago, tsp_maj said:

I really hope that this doesn't happen the way you imagine.  Mainly because I think we're interested in two totally different games.  In my vision resources will be acquired through PVP action and conquest, in moments of high intensity as opposed to a long drawn out contest of who can hit the most trees over the longest period.  Your system is broke and you are too blind to see it.  There are other ways, far more interesting ways to "gear" up, that are actually enjoyable.  I hope you're wrong, because if you're not this game isn't going to last long in my opinion.

If you don't want to harvest and craft, don't. The game won't require you to. But you will have to work with other players who do harvest and craft to get the gear you need, just like harvesters and crafters will need to work with combatants, not just as a point of sales, but for protection. That's all part of the interdependent game design.

Right now, yeah, you have to harvest and craft because there aren't enough people to fill those roles. When we get larger populations and people are more trained, gear will be much more readily available for purchase. You'll be able to PvP all day and use your spoils to trade for the stuff you want. If you are part of a guild, it may be your job at times to patrol in an area where your harvesters are working. Or you might have to patrol around a fort if your walls aren't up yet and your crafters are working to make gear for the guild. It's about cooperative game play. None one will be able to do everything and no one will be forced to, but right now, with low populations and limited skill training, it isn't possible to have everyone only fulfilling their specific role.

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In a typical mmo it takes at minimum 20 hours to become relevant (hit level cap) in the game. In Crowfall it takes less than 15mins, but you lose progress when items break. Crowfall is fundamentally a different game style. You may not like it, but that doesn't mean everyone feels the same way as you.

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7 hours ago, Frykka said:

Basic equipment is pretty wet noodle...  we know all too well that if we give you basic equipment the next issue is that now you can kill things but they do not drop better equipment like in a theme park type game...   now you have a tediousness to grinding mobs for coin and we all know you have to kill higher level mobs and lots of them to get enough coin for new gear and this process is less efficient than playing with a coordinated group who is dividing the work efficiently to gather all kinds of materials and just make the gear...  then you find some PvP and have a little fun and then die a couple times and all your gear breaks...   back to square one?   You will need to have backup gear and a way to resupply as well as upgrade...  You will find that to keep a crew geared it will take an group of dedicated people behind you that like you and that your efforts will also benefit or the bottom falls out.   Some players will get knocked in the teeth, crushed and back to square one.   It is that kind of game and to keep yourself from that result it will require effort, continuous effort.   My opinion is that if you find making basic gear tedious then you are in for many more rude awakenings for the next tier and the next.   You absolutely should know what you are getting into and that process starts with punching 3 trees and then 1000s more.   There is no way around it so why make the first step feel easier.

I completely reject your slippery slope fallacy. I only want the punching trees and basic tools equipment crafting removed. Everything else can stay.

This also seems irrelevant though, as the new player experience is something they are leaving til just before release. My own quick vision is something like this:

As for starting CWs later in our CF experience, I’d be disappointed if I have to hilariously punch a tree to begin the game. Seems there must be more exciting ways.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I think it’s interesting that we’re talking about crafting and economy as though guilds won’t do what they always do in situations like this.  They power farm material to feed to a handful of guild crafters that then provide the service of crafting all of the guilds equipment.

This system is and always has been unethical and broken.  Fueled by the promise of glory you force players to do literally the most boring thing possible.  It’s not even player vs environment, it’s player vs their own tolerance for monotony.

“You don’t have to” is grossly overused as a defense against concepts like this.  This game is highly competitive, and highly competitive people will do exactly the thing which is most productive to their success in the game, often to their own detriment.  This means that people will burn out quickly when they finally sit back to recognize the trap they’ve fallen into.

Testing will continue to show that this is not the right road for the health of the game and I anticipate they will make corrections.

 


Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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My hope is that harvesting/gearing up is very fast if you do not have to deal with other players. Enemies being the reason why harvesting is a grind will be fun.

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