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Is crowfall fundamentally boring?

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1 minute ago, MJayed said:

Walk to a fort you don't own and you will find interaction.

I have no clue how to find another fort. I have to look into things a bit more. 

My question is, the whole main objective is to harvest? No world bosses to fight over, etc...? 

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1 hour ago, Sbz said:

I have no clue how to find another fort. I have to look into things a bit more. 

My question is, the whole main objective is to harvest? No world bosses to fight over, etc...? 

map:

As for objective there is none. My personal objective is to kill other players lol

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1 minute ago, LeBronJames said:

map:

As for objective there is none. My personal objective is to kill other players lol

This sums it up imo.

1 hour ago, Sbz said:

I have no clue how to find another fort. I have to look into things a bit more. 

My question is, the whole main objective is to harvest? No world bosses to fight over, etc...? 

Objective to harvest is to either test stuff or use the materials to create better gear to PvP or craft with. What is your playstyle? If you want an immersive PvE experience, this game doesn't have world bosses or dungeons in the traditional sense.

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Just now, MJayed said:

This sums it up imo.

Objective to harvest is to either test stuff or use the materials to create better gear to PvP or craft with. What is your playstyle? If you want an immersive PvE experience, this game doesn't have world bosses or dungeons in the traditional sense.

I absolutely love PvP and world PvP. However, I enjoy having to either PvP to get the gear for it or at least grind something.

Harvesting for hours in order to get better gear and skills for PvP... not feeling that.

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4 minutes ago, Sbz said:

I absolutely love PvP and world PvP. However, I enjoy having to either PvP to get the gear for it or at least grind something.

Harvesting for hours in order to get better gear and skills for PvP... not feeling that.

I suggest just getting intermediate gear and pvping with that. Once you get used to the game then try and get advanced gear.

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On 6/1/2018 at 8:01 PM, Sbz said:

I absolutely love PvP and world PvP. However, I enjoy having to either PvP to get the gear for it or at least grind something.

Harvesting for hours in order to get better gear and skills for PvP... not feeling that.

Grind mobs for gold. Buy gear from someone's vendor.


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Was just about to make a thread like this.
Combat not fluid enough and we should have more of a combo system for it.
Gathering is so boring and since i started testing Friday i have only done gathering.

Because you just have to and for a game that is PvP focused i find it unbearable boring and is not fun at all.
The fact that you start off with nothing so you have no choose you can not go fight.
You HAVE to craft and then fight you lose your stuff first 5 minutes then you have to grind it all again.

If i wanted a tree coping simulator i can play Minecraft.

The game as it is right now most people will get bored with this game the first week.
It will be like grind resources, fight for 1 hour average, then go do it all again, then someone comes steel your stuff and you have to grind it again.
Now i don`t mind losing my stuff but there need to be faster to regain stuff, i see people hanging around 1 month then quit  because of the boredom.

Some people will excel and steam roll the majority but i don`t see how this will bring a consistently fun experience for every player.
That is my 2 cents anyways.

Edited by isfjell

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7 hours ago, isfjell said:

Combat not fluid enough and we should have more of a combo system for it.

I get this a lot "that the animations look terrible". ACE doesn't have a bajillion artists however, so I'd imagine what the can do in this department is pretty limited.

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4 hours ago, izkimar said:

I get this a lot "that the animations look terrible". ACE doesn't have a bajillion artists however, so I'd imagine what the can do in this department is pretty limited.

While I don't believe animations are terrible, it doesn't take a bazillion to pull it off either. Plenty of studios have put out beautiful games with small teams. Matter of working with the talent and tech available and knowing the limitations of both. Seems some teams go with the "we'll figure it out as we go" approach which leads to some interesting results. For some fundamental aspects of a game, playing it my ear falls flat.

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22 hours ago, isfjell said:

Was just about to make a thread like this.
Combat not fluid enough and we should have more of a combo system for it.
Gathering is so boring and since i started testing Friday i have only done gathering.

Because you just have to and for a game that is PvP focused i find it unbearable boring and is not fun at all.
The fact that you start off with nothing so you have no choose you can not go fight.
You HAVE to craft and then fight you lose your stuff first 5 minutes then you have to grind it all again.

If i wanted a tree coping simulator i can play Minecraft.

The game as it is right now most people will get bored with this game the first week.
It will be like grind resources, fight for 1 hour average, then go do it all again, then someone comes steel your stuff and you have to grind it again.
Now i don`t mind losing my stuff but there need to be faster to regain stuff, i see people hanging around 1 month then quit  because of the boredom.

Some people will excel and steam roll the majority but i don`t see how this will bring a consistently fun experience for every player.
That is my 2 cents anyways.

A decent amount of the pre-alpha players have dedicated harvesting/crafting accounts to mitigate the absolute pain in the ass that is harvesting.  Even with dedicated accounts and spring buffs (the seasons impact farming heavily) farming still seems to make the overwhelming majority of current play.  Just be happy you missed the time that even with 100% success gear could fail to build.  Crafting takes waaaaay to much of the current time, the game currently feels like a crafting simulation with some light, and lagged, pvp.  If you're playing the game solo or with 2 or 3 people you're going to be at a huge disadvantage to the three guilds dominating the three different factions.  You progress exponentially faster the more you pool resources and make allies.  Jah and Anthrage are good point of references if your order looking for peeps, Destrin or Zyback (he prefers if you call him by ItsZiZ though) both play balance and could get you in touch with the right people and if your playing chaos Ginko, Soulein or Blazzen should be your go to peeps but get some allies if you wanna survive in this game. 

 

If you are unhappy with the extreme crafting I suggest you tag some devs and ask why its the way it is.  If nobody speaks up about things you hate then you can't expect change. 

@jtoddcoleman

@thomasblair


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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4 hours ago, mandalore said:

A decent amount of the pre-alpha players have dedicated harvesting/crafting accounts to mitigate the absolute pain in the ass that is harvesting.  Even with dedicated accounts and spring buffs (the seasons impact farming heavily) farming still seems to make the overwhelming majority of current play.  Just be happy you missed the time that even with 100% success gear could fail to build.  Crafting takes waaaaay to much of the current time, the game currently feels like a crafting simulation with some light, and lagged, pvp.  If you're playing the game solo or with 2 or 3 people you're going to be at a huge disadvantage to the three guilds dominating the three different factions.  You progress exponentially faster the more you pool resources and make allies.  Jah and Anthrage are good point of references if your order looking for peeps, Destrin or Zyback (he prefers if you call him by ItsZiZ though) both play balance and could get you in touch with the right people and if your playing chaos Ginko, Soulein or Blazzen should be your go to peeps but get some allies if you wanna survive in this game. 

 

If you are unhappy with the extreme crafting I suggest you tag some devs and ask why its the way it is.  If nobody speaks up about things you hate then you can't expect change. 

@jtoddcoleman

@thomasblair

Definitely not happy with the crafting as it is right now.
I mean you should choose to do crafting it should not be a chore.

And i will be sure to tag dev`s above as well.
Thank you.

@thomasblair
@jtoddcoleman
Can we expect crafting to change in some way?
Will you cater to people how dont relay wan`t to craft\ harvest that much? (or is that the game and we just have to deal with it.) ?

It would go a long way to up the amount of resources you get.
Kind Regards

Edited by isfjell

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5 minutes ago, isfjell said:

Definitely not happy with the crafting as it is right now.
I mean you should choose to do crafting it should not be a chore.

And i will be sure to tag dev`s above as well.
Thank you.

@thomasblair
@jtoddcoleman
Can we expect crafting to change in some way?
Will you cater to people how dont relay wan`t to craft\ harvest that much? (or is that the game and we just have to deal with it.) ?

It would go a long way to up the amount of resources you get was incised.

Kind Regards

Harvesting, logistics, crafting are all supposed to be integral parts of the game to keep the cycle of decay going.  Nothing is supposed to be permanent, everything breaks and they want a strong economy based off of that.  You will have to do some farming, at least at the start and its impossible to PvP when you are out geared and out organized by some of the existing guilds.  Making the bottom half of the crafting take a lot less of mats would go a long way to alleviating this but you also have to understand that training is currently at x10 (so people are able to training crafters and harvesters rather quickly) and we have the spring buff going for more resources.  You think it's bad now wait till it winter (in game) and not x10...

 

People over the weekend just got the ability to make good really decent stuff, so it will take months/ if not years on live.  Doesn't that sound fun! 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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19 hours ago, izkimar said:

I get this a lot "that the animations look terrible". ACE doesn't have a bajillion artists however, so I'd imagine what the can do in this department is pretty limited.

It would not take much in my opinion.
They already kinda have it at least for confessor. 

You press one button then a second and you get a tornado or what ever.
Now remove the spell lock (root while casting) speed up responsiveness of the skill activation.
And i think it be a darn good system in my humble opinion. 

The two key factors here is No casting lock and more responsive (faster firing spells\ attacks.)
Combined with the dodge\ dash skills i think that sounds like fun PvP.
As long as skill and not gear is the main determine factor of course.

Edited by isfjell
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10 hours ago, mandalore said:

Harvesting, logistics, crafting are all supposed to be integral parts of the game to keep the cycle of decay going.  Nothing is supposed to be permanent, everything breaks and they want a strong economy based off of that.  You will have to do some farming, at least at the start and its impossible to PvP when you are out geared and out organized by some of the existing guilds.  Making the bottom half of the crafting take a lot less of mats would go a long way to alleviating this but you also have to understand that training is currently at x10 (so people are able to training crafters and harvesters rather quickly) and we have the spring buff going for more resources.  You think it's bad now wait till it winter (in game) and not x10...

 

People over the weekend just got the ability to make good really decent stuff, so it will take months/ if not years on live.  Doesn't that sound fun! 

It boggles my mind that mass production is such a "down the road" point on the development roadmap since its supposed to be the single biggest mitigating factor to help balance the fighting/crafting time expenditure.

It seems to me that mass production is WAY more important than the crafting projects interface, and even more important than the randomized mapping tech.

They spent a long time throwing away and tweaking combat to get it to the state its in now and define the general feel, and we're still basically sitting on version 2 out of a required 3 of the other big core gameplay loop of harvest/craft.

The values for mass production, its skills, and its world interactions are easily as integral to the baseline functionality of the game as combat and crafting and its a huge black hole that's currently causing us to view harvesting and crafting without a lens on anything remotely resembling the final state of those parts of the game.

I think that's probably way more important than all of the hunger shards and new mob types and probably more important than the missing races and map randomization combined in terms of things that need to be iterated on for feedback and I wonder why its so far back in the que.


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5 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

It seems to me that mass production is WAY more important than the crafting projects interface, and even more important than the randomized mapping tech.

I agree with most of what you said, but not this. The Random mapping tech is huge for ACE, no matter what gets plunked down on top of it.

I think they need to try to see manufacturing put in soon, if no other reason than to see it's impact on resource crafting efficiency.  Right now it's all one and done, but when you can crank out 100 perfect amazing success, bootstrapped, blue bars in a row, it is going to skew things so dramatically, it is going to make the entire economic sense of the game completely shift. 

Right now we are farming to make this piece or that piece.  In the future we are going to be farming to make this run or that run.  The dynamic is going to change so drastically and dramatically OR, resource scarcity is going to make factory runs have very little impact at all.

But it is something we need to see, the sooner the better IMHO.

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12 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I agree with most of what you said, but not this. The Random mapping tech is huge for ACE, no matter what gets plunked down on top of it.

I think they need to try to see manufacturing put in soon, if no other reason than to see it's impact on resource crafting efficiency.  Right now it's all one and done, but when you can crank out 100 perfect amazing success, bootstrapped, blue bars in a row, it is going to skew things so dramatically, it is going to make the entire economic sense of the game completely shift. 

Right now we are farming to make this piece or that piece.  In the future we are going to be farming to make this run or that run.  The dynamic is going to change so drastically and dramatically OR, resource scarcity is going to make factory runs have very little impact at all.

But it is something we need to see, the sooner the better IMHO.

In terms of the foundational state of the game I'm saying factory production seems to be higher priority specifically because there is no mechanism to use as a stand in, unlike randomized mapping. We can iterate on the end product of the mapping tech right now through the method ACE has been using, figuring out the play balance of parcel distances and layouts by having a desginer act as a stand in for said tech. As it is an operation that needs to be done extremely infrequently it makes sense that up until now they haven't bothered with that part of the design.

However, ten thousand randomly generated maps are of limited utility to the end goal of engaging campaign play if the balance of the resource/consumption economy is off. That data will skew the perspectives for the number, distance between, and density of materials, travel time for death penalty runs, etc.

Having a million randomly generated maps which take too much or too little time to farm on isn't all that useful if the farming dynamic is radically more or less generous or stingy than intended by the final design of mass production.

I'm not denying it is important, it absolutely is, but the bounding values for properly assigning those randomization parameters and the unforseen parcel groupings or changes to parcel designs they require are intimately connected to the combat and economic state of the game. How much or little space is needed to place or operate factories, how far, near, or how populous static and mob sourced materials are, and how players behave and interact with the conflict between needing to risk equipment and needing to make it and massive influencing factors on the requirements of that design specifically because of the artist defined nature of the parcels themselves.

In a fully dynamic world solution, it is conceivable one could simply alter the paramaters for generating terrain and the things placed upon it and it wouldn't be a big deal. However we aren't in a fully dynamic environment. We're in a box full of multiple artist defined environments stitched together dynamically, and the disruptive influence of factories coming so late in the game, alongside systems like mounts and caravans could massively upend that system in a way that potentially invalidates a lot of work.

The mechanisms within the world define the requirements for the design of the world, and because level designers are party responsible for designing that world, it seems from a project management perspective a bit premature from the limited scope of my own experiences and limited access to the version of the product I have access to.

Then again, I'm making assumptions with incomplete information so what do I know?


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15 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

In terms of the foundational state of the game I'm saying factory production seems to be higher priority specifically because there is no mechanism to use as a stand in, unlike randomized mapping.

Did you hear the difference in time required to build maps by hand vs this way?  It's several orders of magnitude faster. It used to take hours and hours to hand lay out the terrain, which means more developer time available to build other things. They also need to iterate through several versions of the algorithm to get it to feel right.

Factories would not have any additional advantages for ACE other than having factories for us to play with.

But really, this is all moot armchair quarter backing.  They did what they did, and it's done, at least in regards to factories vs land building.  

 

 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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29 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Factories would not have any additional advantages for ACE other than having factories for us to play with.

Allow me to try and clearly explain my skepticism here.

The value is figuring out early that the entire harvesting paradigm, crafting recipies, storage paradigm, equipment values, and every core aspect of the gameplay loop that isn't running from point A to point B needs to be at best adjusted or at worst scrapped and redesigned.

Things that require a lot more live testing because they can't be iterated on in a bubble without being deployed in a live environment, unlike campaign world creation, which can literally be done with nobody around, and is ultimately less impactful on the core gameplay loop because it is only done once per campaign compared to the hundreds or thousands of items created and consumed.

Building a more efficient map is totally important, how it is somehow more important than the things you actually do on that map I just can't wrap my head around.

Campaigns and the maps they play out on are the meta wrapper at the very outside of every other gameplay loop, right on the outside wrapping around campaign victory conditions. Mass production, on the other hand, is very close to the center of the foundational gameplay loop as it touches with zero degree of separation crafting, RNG, Gear stat clamps, and degredation. You can't have a campaign or have any meaningful strategic parameterization of the maps if that core loop isn't pretty solid. You need a clearly defined set of intended strategic parameters to define the rules of a procedural map generator.

As part of the overall game state, your combat and economy are the heart of your game and the foundation upon which every other element hangs because they are the things players interact with most frequently, and the things which most directly affect the players. As such they're the things most likely to upend and radically change the scope of every other part of the design that rests upon them. The entire campaign system, mob HP values and abilities, and every functional part of the world rests upon the combat and crafting systems.

That's why they spent so long doing combat test after combat test before even thinking about the rest of the MMO features. How the other elements that aren't crafting are in any way more important than crafting just make no sense to me. If your crafting is busted, you can't properly parameterize your world because you're designing its assumptions about distance and player requirements for resources on a different needs model than the ones they are actually intended to use.

Of course, ACE holds a lot of information about the design, state of various features, and tasks various engineers are assigned to that we don't so its just a ridiculius thought experiment for either one of us, really. Neither of us can say for sure what's more valuable to prioritize because neither of us is actually developing the game or privy to any blocking factors in the design or architecture of its features. Its entirely possible that terrain randomization is just lower hanging fruit at the moment, or that factories are purposely of minimal impact, or that the factory design requires parts of the crafting projects interface, or whatever.

Stuff is gonna happen when it happens no matter what.

 

Edited by PopeUrban

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2 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Allow me to try and clearly explain my skepticism here.

The value is figuring out early that the entire harvesting paradigm, crafting recipies, storage paradigm, equipment values, and every core aspect of the gameplay loop that isn't running from point A to point B needs to be at best adjusted or at worst scrapped and redesigned.

Things that require a lot more live testing because they can't be iterated on in a bubble without being deployed in a live environment, unlike campaign world creation, which can literally be done with nobody around, and is ultimately less impactful on the core gameplay loop because it is only done once per campaign compared to the hundreds or thousands of items created and consumed.

Building a more efficient map is totally important, how it is somehow more important than the things you actually do on that map I just can't wrap my head around.

I happen to think one of the major potential issues with the harvesting experience, is the distribution of the resources.  The idea of one motherload with a couple of smaller nodes, and generally scattered about the map resources rather than focused resource locations, is along with re-spawn times I think a contributing factor.

It's the difference between critter spawns, which are effectively endless and stationary for a couple of harvesters, and ore harvesters that have to run everywhere around the map picking up a node here and a node there.

Ironic that the "hunter" party has less wandering to do than a miner, which is usually a stationary sort of thing to do.

The point of the above is, now ACE has the tools to try a few different distribution models quickly.  They can for instance create virtual POI's with multiple motherloads and dozens of satellite nodes, and see how that impacts player behavior and output.

I also think the answer is not to toss out the baby with the bathwater in regards to harvesting.  I think if there is a supply problem they should look at alternative ways to acquire resources and making it more interesting, like the POI's do,  as opposed to gutting the entire system.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

Building a more efficient map is totally important, how it is somehow more important than the things you actually do on that map I just can't wrap my head around.

These aren't mutually exclusive. Not sure who works on what, but if major features are on hold due to lack of staff, hire more people. The list of missing and incomplete features isn't small several years in. It confuses me how we have heard almost nothing on several rather significant features while they say soft launch is possible this year. What am I missing?

1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

As part of the overall game state, your combat and economy are the heart of your game and the foundation upon which every other element hangs because they are the things players interact with most frequently, and the things which most directly affect the players.

That's why they spent so long doing combat test after combat test before even thinking about the rest of the MMO features.

Yet the combat is still just "okay."

1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

Of course, ACE holds a lot of information about the design, state of various features, and tasks various engineers are assigned to that we don't so its just a ridiculius thought experiment for either one of us, really. Neither of us can say for sure what's more valuable to prioritize because neither of us is actually developing the game or privy to any blocking factors in the design or architecture of its features.

If only transparency was actual transparency.

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