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Helix

Is crowfall fundamentally boring?

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2 hours ago, Helix said:

There's enough significant difference between the two tho. In fact, these games are miles apart.

MWO is all about the carrot on the stick; crowfall is not.

MWO is all about permanence; crowfall is not.

MWO has combat only crowfall can dream about.

MWO has significantly better AI encounters.

MWO is about socializing with others and teaming up to beat on NPCS to acquire mats to crafting PERMANENT and cool looking armor sets. Crowfall is about teaming up to tear down other peoples stuff ultimately.

MWO gear crafting revolves around fighting monsters and skinning them; killing monsters is fun and exciting. Crowfall crafting revolves around hitting on rocks and trees; combat is necessarily required, boring.

MWO might not have typical progression, but it does have permanent gear / weapon progression and hunter ranks which increase the difficulty. Crowfall has skill lines and sacrificing, but I think the MWO system is more significant.

MWO is more of a themepark than Crowfall.

MWO doesn't give you the opportunity to victimize other players (kill them, burn their strongholds down, sieges their forts, steal their loot).

 

MWO is a great game, made by a large studio with an AAA budget and years of development. I'm not expecting anything of that quality from crowfall. 

I'd compare crowfall to sea of thieves in some aspects. Both of them revolve around emergent game play, player behavior, heavily pvp and are "create your own adventure" type games. As much as I like SoT that game has A LOT of issues. Issues that can see crowfall possibly contracting.

So 5.5 introducing the better MOB AI, more types of mobs and mob drops that matter like disciplines is not factored into your opinion?   even though it was tested the last 3 weeks and pushed to live today.   This is only the first upgrade to hunting monsters in CF, we have a lot more coming "soon".   Once the bugs in AI pathing and significantly harder Mobs that swarm you come into the game, rock smashing is only a single small piece of the game loop.

Yes, Crowfall is really fun when there is population, even harvesting and gathering then have a risk factor that should keep you on your toes even with players watching you back...   CF is only not fun when the world is empty of players...   this is true of all multiplayer games.


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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It does become a circular problem with population and boredom. Probably hits PvPers the hardest, as they are at the end of game loop as it is set up right now (Harvesting >>> Crafting >>>> PvP). You can try to PvP in basic, but PvPers are competitive and don't like playing with a big system-forced disadvantage. So PvPers log off and go play SoT, PUBG, Fortnite, etc. Some of this is growing pains and pre-alpha - it's still a serious issue and any improvements on the game loop would help.


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1 hour ago, miraluna said:

It does become a circular problem with population and boredom. Probably hits PvPers the hardest, as they are at the end of game loop as it is set up right now (Harvesting >>> Crafting >>>> PvP). You can try to PvP in basic, but PvPers are competitive and don't like playing with a big system-forced disadvantage. So PvPers log off and go play SoT, PUBG, Fortnite, etc. Some of this is growing pains and pre-alpha - it's still a serious issue and any improvements on the game loop would help.

The idea that PvPers only PvP is elitist and wrong...   nearly everyone in crowfall IS a PvPer, and a harvester, maybe even a crafter...   otherwise you are failing to train your second VIP skill.   Harvesting is a PvP activity when resources are scarce and everyone needs them.  Anyone who wants to "just" PvP will probably not be a factor in Crowfall.   This is an opinion, yes, but based on the game loop, the value of PvP contribution does not generally deserve free gear...   team effort across the spectrum will win...  elitism (I only PvP) will lose.


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It's not elitism, Crowfall is based on the concept of specialization and interdependence. You should be able to choose your path in Crowfall (combat is one) and then work with others who choose different paths. It's an issue of how the game loop is currently working, and how some specialties (crafting, pvp) get blocked at the start by others (harvesting). If we want to have a good size playerbase for CF, we do have to look at the broader spectrum of playstyles of the potential audience - and how to get all those players into the game, having fun, and working together. Doesn't make sense to me to build a pvp-focused game, and not make it fun for those players.


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1 hour ago, Frykka said:

The idea that PvPers only PvP is elitist and wrong...   nearly everyone in crowfall IS a PvPer, and a harvester, maybe even a crafter...   otherwise you are failing to train your second VIP skill.   Harvesting is a PvP activity when resources are scarce and everyone needs them.  Anyone who wants to "just" PvP will probably not be a factor in Crowfall.   This is an opinion, yes, but based on the game loop, the value of PvP contribution does not generally deserve free gear...   team effort across the spectrum will win...  elitism (I only PvP) will lose.

I see this position as far more "elitist" than that of making room for people only interested in the aspects of the game they enjoy.

I've seen many videos where Blair talks about "only crafting" or being "just a crafter", as well as similar discussions about harvesting.  I know personally people who will NEVER entertain the idea of harvesting to get into PvP, any more than those who want to only play as a crafter will want to PvP. 

That's not elitist, that's human nature. People play MMO's for different reasons, and find different things fun.  It's called Bartles Taxonomy of player types.

Forcing a player who does not enjoy one of the play types, to get access to the play type they do enjoy, will do only one thing, drive that player away to a game that does not require that sort of unfun (for them) hoop jumping.

You will never convince a PvP focused player (killer), that harvesting is fun, any more than you would convince a social player that ganking random noobs is fun, or an explorer that swinging a pick and a rock for 3 hours is fun. For the explorer it would be the same as putting them in a locked castle, and telling them the only way they can go explore the world is if they first hammer at a rock for 3 hours.  Guess what, in today's game environment where there are so many worlds to explore, that game would last about 10 minutes.  It's the same for PvP players, they will simply never show up.  They will simply play PUBG, or LoL, or Overwatch, or any other number of titles proven to give them that PvP fix quickly and efficiently. 

It's not "elitist" to give people what they want to do for fun as quickly as possible, that's simply good design.

If you design a game around the idea that you should enjoy every type of style, or force people to participate in every aspect, even those they don't enjoy, your looking not for "niche" players, but rather a unicorn that does not exist. A player that finds nearly equal enjoyment in all the Bartle types.

Fortunately, as I mentioned above, Blair has often talked about being a "dedicated" (insert profession) being a target for the game. I just hope they meet that goal, because if there is too much mud in the water, or too many hoops to jump through to get to the fun, nobody's going to want to drink it.

Guilds that make room for, supply and manage the dedicated PvP player, they are going to be the ones that win, not the selfish ones that try to make a fun game a job.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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6 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I see this position as far more "elitist" than that of making room for people only interested in the aspects of the game they enjoy.

I've seen many videos where Blair talks about "only crafting" or being "just a crafter", as well as similar discussions about harvesting.  I know personally people who will NEVER entertain the idea of harvesting to get into PvP, any more than those who want to only play as a crafter will want to PvP. 

That's not elitist, that's human nature. People play MMO's for different reasons, and find different things fun.  It's called Bartles Taxonomy of player types.

Forcing a player who does not enjoy one of the play types, to get access to the play type they do enjoy, will do only one thing, drive that player away to a game that does not require that sort of unfun (for them) hoop jumping.

You will never convince a PvP focused player (killer), that harvesting is fun, any more than you would convince a social player that ganking random noobs is fun, or an explorer that swinging a pick and a rock for 3 hours is fun. For the explorer it would be the same as putting them in a locked castle, and telling them the only way they can go explore the world is if they first hammer at a rock for 3 hours.  Guess what, in today's game environment where there are so many worlds to explore, that game would last about 10 minutes.  It's the same for PvP players, they will simply never show up.  They will simply play PUBG, or LoL, or Overwatch, or any other number of titles proven to give them that PvP fix quickly and efficiently. 

It's not "elitist" to give people what they want to do for fun as quickly as possible, that's simply good design.

If you design a game around the idea that you should enjoy every type of style, or force people to participate in every aspect, even those they don't enjoy, your looking not for "niche" players, but rather a unicorn that does not exist. A player that finds nearly equal enjoyment in all the Bartle types.

Fortunately, as I mentioned above, Blair has often talked about being a "dedicated" (insert profession) being a target for the game. I just hope they meet that goal, because if there is too much mud in the water, or too many hoops to jump through to get to the fun, nobody's going to want to drink it.

Guilds that make room for, supply and manage the dedicated PvP player, they are going to be the ones that win, not the selfish ones that try to make a fun game a job.

Right now, if you're not harvesting than you're not pulling your weight. The way I see it, most people will go combat/harvesting and have an alt account or two that specializes in crafting. That seems like the most logical choice to me. The question is can ACE make the game fun for those who don't want to harvest at all, or is harvesting a prerequisite to having fun for these people. It's like asking someone who is fully capable and enjoys walking to crawl on their belly for x amount of hours. 

Hypothetically, if you're building your systems around 25% of your populace that likes harvesting crafting but the other 75% dreads it, are you building a successful game? Especially in the current gaming environment with games like PUGB, etc that offer similar experiences and get you into the action faster. It's not like CF doesn't have competition with games like CU entering beta.

Edited by Helix

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8 hours ago, Helix said:

Right now, if you're not harvesting than you're not pulling your weight. The way I see it, most people will go combat/harvesting and have an alt account or two that specializes in crafting. That seems like the most logical choice to me. The question is can ACE make the game fun for those who don't want to harvest at all, or is harvesting a prerequisite to having fun for these people. It's like asking someone who is fully capable and enjoys walking to crawl on their belly for x amount of hours. 

Hypothetically, if you're building your systems around 25% of your populace that likes harvesting crafting but the other 75% dreads it, are you building a successful game? Especially in the current gaming environment with games like PUGB, etc that offer similar experiences and get you into the action faster. It's not like CF doesn't have competition with games like CU entering beta.

If there is weight to pull, a pretty clear synonym for "work to be done", and everyone has to do the same "work" that they don't find fun, then it's a job not a game.

If and alt is essentially required, that is a critical design flaw, period.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the critical problem seems to revolve around the quantities of harvested materials produced, especially by the untrained.  I know from early videos with TBlair, one of the design goals was that "I don't want to make it advantageous for people with no skill to start chewing up nodes because they know that it could very rarely produce something...". 

Well mission accomplished, but at what cost? 

The cost as I see it is everyone is currently essentially required to take some training in harvesting, because that's THE ONLY PLACE TO START to make progress.  I also don't see the fix being the full economy, simply because that would force the least social players (killers)  into a social encounter within the first 10 minutes of play in order to progress.  Also a recipe for disaster.

Easy fix, seriously raise the material floor by two things.

  • 5-10X the productivity of knot/cobble/slag results.  Those materials are deemed safe enough to put in EK's and harvest without risk, as well as a division between those and "premium" materials, so there is no reason to consider it something that should be limited. 
  • Go back a step and make the hippos take the same materials, and make the POI's produce grey quality materials, or the large chunks able to be fragmented (also an earlier design), into grey material, so that grey gear is also easier to come by without harvesting. 

That would short circuit the NEED to train harvesting, because a PvP player could go straight to a POI hold/capture, and gather grey material to give/sell to crafters in exchange for gear, as well as contribute to the team building projects, all without needing to harvest.

ACE should have stopped ratcheting up the difficulty in getting materials with the design they had in 2016 when this video was made, and not separated the hippo materials from crafting materials to the degree they are now.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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12 hours ago, Helix said:

Hypothetically, if you're building your systems around 25% of your populace that likes harvesting crafting but the other 75% dreads it, are you building a successful game? Especially in the current gaming environment with games like PUGB, etc that offer similar experiences and get you into the action faster. It's not like CF doesn't have competition with games like CU entering beta.

You paint a grey issue as black and white here...  saying these players like harvesting/crafting ONLY and these players like PvP ONLY is invalid when compared to actual gaming populations, also people skew Bartles to what they want it to say about themselves...  The rise of arena games targets Bartles in a specific way but doing the reverse, pigeonholing a player into a role in an MMO that requires players to perform multiple roles is misuse of its data.   Players in an MMO KNOW that it is not a MOBA and have to adjust to fit the needs of the group they wish to play with.   If your guild/group has exactly the right balance of Bartles types then maybe you could get away with being "elitist" but that is highly unlikely...   I would say that guilds will want players that understand some of the game is teamWORK if you want to succeed and win.  Good players know that if they log in only for the action in PvP they will likely be lower on the list of who gets the better gear...  at the minimum they will be needed to secure the harvesting area, stand guard for hours, or create diversion actions elsewhere.

And CU is not an arena and will have the same harvesting-crafting-PvP meta as Crowfall even though it will have different mechanics.

I am a PvP player who has figured out how to zen when I harvest and craft...   Its OK, not terrible and no where near as bad as you paint it...  yes, many players are tainted by the easily accessed arena PvP and think that very little time should be required to get gear...  but THAT defeats the whole premise of an MMO.

I don't see how Bartles can apply to crowfall very much...   explorers want quests and content, we won't have them, what will an explorer be doing in CF, it's not like it will take that long to map out a new CW, then they are just a PvP scout/skirmisher/harvester like the rest of us when a battle is not raging.
 

Just Stop trying to make Crowfall into a MOBA already...   face the fact that it is an MMO by design and will require nearly every competitive player to PvP and harvest at the minimum, even a little crafting like tools and food.  Thank the Goddess that you aren't having to do quests to level up.


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40 minutes ago, Frykka said:

Just Stop trying to make Crowfall into a MOBA already...

Who said anything about wanting to turn the game into a MOBA? I just don't think getting the "basic stuff" should take long as it does now. New players, especially solo players, aren't going to stick around for the time it gets to acquire lower tier armor  so they can go out and start working towards semi-decent gear. This is obviously a NPE problem, so let's see what they do to. I'd imagine they'd relent a little when it comes to mat requirements for lower tier gear. CF doesn't need to be a repetitive, tedious experience. I don't know why you think it does.

Edited by Helix

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Intermediate gear is already simple to make and takes very little materials, time or effort... they ARE still adjusting the dust amount which is the only thing that takes a little longer and only at launch with a cold skill start...   after launch dust will be for sale by dust farming players.  You need 9 premium ore or wood to upgrade your basic weap...  and what 24 leather for your int armor...   yes, it is the dust that slows the progression and the amount needed was cut in half from 5.4 to 5.5 same for benches.

I have to chuckle about Killers being the "least social",  that is simply backwards...  crafters are the least social, killers in Crowfall roam in social groups for the most part and have far more opportunity to interact with other players.   I think the whole notion of separating players into these limited and seriously flawed groupings is dumb.

I don't think competitively gathering materials and perhaps fighting over spawns and zones for them is the least bit repetitive, tedious, or boring UNLESS the world is empty of enemies...   Yes that is all of our concern but I cannot fathom how you could make intermediate gear easier besides the dust component.  You don't even need any skills to use the intermediate bench.

Who needs that much knotwood, slag, or cobble to drop...   I move on to premium trees/ore/stone well before I would need 5-10x what we get now.   I grab about 30-40 logs 6-12 cobble or slag and make my weapons, about 15 minutes or the time to level 1-5 in any standard MMO questing progression.   Then in the real game loop it is time to partner up/group up and leave the beachhead anyway and start finding fights ,grabbing a tree or ore node here and there, kill some mobs, skirmish an enemy...  gain some coin, maybe a discipline drop. 

When you reference a player base that does not have the drive to do the things the game requires to compete, or thinks that they can let others do it for them and that others somehow enjoy it "more", I think you are pointing to niche players that CF does not target, those players that act like Arena/MOBA PvP is better somehow because it did not take much effort to get into the fight...   note that those players also demand intrinsic balance in the system whereas Crowfall niche players do not want intrinsic balance to PvP, they want to have better gear than other players if they put in the effort to get it...   that is a big difference in MMO PvP, the players have to work to have a gear advantage.

 

Edited by Frykka

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Seems like a summary of OP is, "all they need to change about crowfall is everything."

 

I unfortunately agree.  Harvesting and crafting may "make sense," but they are not fun.

 

I can't play combat in its current state because it's locked behind hours of anti-fun but I did play one of the combat tests...  I can get over "floaty."  What I can't get over is the blandness.  Each class should have that "thing" that sets them apart.

 

To get the game in a playable state, everyone should come out of the box pvp viable.  Harvesting and crafting should not be compulsory.  Absolutely, a guy who has been established should wipe the floor with someone out of the box, but who was stupid enough to think it was a good idea to advertise a game as a pvp game and then force people to palm strike trees?

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I saw this topic when you first posted it Helix and I kinda sat on it for a few days thinking it over.

I think, for the most part, you're right. Crowfall is probably going to be, for the most part, boring to most people.

The thing is though, so was Shadowbane, and so was Eve. And they were boring in the same ways, more or less. When you are forced to do all the various bits of gathering and crafting and progression and whatnot to create a competitive character, you are bypassing the systems that should drive a lot of the actual player interactions that will be fundamental to making Crowfall a fun game.

Once the game is fleshed out, and there is (hopefully) a real playerbase behind it, it should be fairly uncommon for a single player to just go out and go from naked punching trees to geared up entirely solo. Most people will trade, or fall back on guilds to be providing gear and direction, exactly as they did in Shadowbane, or do in Eve.

 

 

That said, I honestly think they should put vendors with starter gear and armor sufficient to be at least semi competitive in PvP, at least until Beta, or at least over the weekends to encourage combat.


 

 

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1 hour ago, philocypher said:

Seems like a summary of OP is, "all they need to change about crowfall is everything."

 

I unfortunately agree.  Harvesting and crafting may "make sense," but they are not fun.

Since your first two "points" are based off what someone else has said.. I will say this. Those two things might not be fun for you but that doesn't reflect others who want to fill those roles for their guilds. I am a harvester for Oathsworn. Why? Cause I'll get to see pvp. I pick a stealth class so I can solo harvest if needed but also have the same escapes and damage capability of a stealth harvester in group situations.

Just cause it isn't a fun activity for you to do in the game doesn't mean someone else will find it boring. Just pray that whatever guild you're in is going to have the harvesters and crafters to get you the crafting mats and gear you'll need to make your character more powerful. Other wise, find a new game to play. That's just how it's going to be. This isn't a solo game. People need to stop trying to make it more solo friendly. It never was marketed to be a solo friendly game and if people are tired of hearing that in posts then they should stop spewing stuff about solo related gameplay. Not that you are but other people in the thread have.

If you plan on being a solo player in this game, you're going to experience a lot of frustration.

I can't play combat in its current state because it's locked behind hours of anti-fun but I did play one of the combat tests...  I can get over "floaty."  What I can't get over is the blandness.  Each class should have that "thing" that sets them apart.

You can play combat. There are people who have proven to and in the current live server environment there have been individuals who are actively play testing the game who only acquire gear through killing and looting other players. Again, you claim that it's locked behind hours of anti-fun but that rather tells me you want things handed to you that make it effortless. Right now is the prime time to figure out some early character builds with disciplines and even checking out stuff with crafting.

Also, not all the mechanics of a lot of the classes are even in the game to test. In fact a lot of stuff still isn't in the current version of the game for us to test. Classes do have their "thing" and if you aren't able to notice what they are then I suggest taking a closer look at all of them. Cause, I am pretty sure only one class has something like Death or Life Orbs. Only 1 class has healing telegraph auras in its base kit. Only 1 class is designed to have a Chain Pull ability and directional block mechanics (yet to be put into the game). Only 1 class has poison mechanics in its base kit.. Only 1 class centered around throwing bleeds on a people. They have their "thing" and only gets further customized through discipline runes.

To get the game in a playable state, everyone should come out of the box pvp viable.  Harvesting and crafting should not be compulsory.  Absolutely, a guy who has been established should wipe the floor with someone out of the box, but who was stupid enough to think it was a good idea to advertise a game as a pvp game and then force people to palm strike trees?

Even in the live server the "game" is in a "playable state". Every class is viable. Every group role is viable. Take the time to actually try and get stuff to work for each class and learn how they function, what is broken in the current state of the game, and the various things they are weak and strong at then we can have a conversation of what is and isn't viable. Of what group role is and isn't viable.

The palm tree striking is funny to watch. It should stay for comical reasons and it sure is better than what we had before it and what we had before it was extremely mind numbing to look at. I very much don't want to see the Kung-Fu monk-style palm strikes to go away.

 


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29 minutes ago, Hi. said:

Shadowbane

Shadowbane started you with a weapon and there was no direct crafting whatsoever.  Harvesting was also done in combat.  There was zero direct mundane content in shadowbane.

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Just now, philocypher said:

Shadowbane started you with a weapon and there was no direct crafting whatsoever.  Harvesting was also done in combat.  There was zero direct mundane content in shadowbane.

You had to kill stuff for weeks for gold to buy gear, and for xp to level your character if you were unassisted by a guild in order to 'get competitive'. At least at launch, I don't know how much that changed towards the end of the game's life.

I didn't mean they were identical, I meant that there was a ramp-up period of repetitive 'un-fun' content before you could get to 'the meat' of the game.

Though, there was some degree of fun pvp at all levels, at least at the beginning of the game, so I guess you didn't have to get that high in order to 'have fun'. I suspect that will be the same for Crowfall's Campaigns though, so I dunno.


 

 

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2 hours ago, philocypher said:

Shadowbane started you with a weapon and there was no direct crafting whatsoever.  Harvesting was also done in combat.  There was zero direct mundane content in shadowbane.

Nonsense. Killing mobs in Shadowbane was required and entirely mundane. Crafting gear was quite the chore as well. And the weapon you started with was about as useful as our fists in Crowfall.


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5 hours ago, Jah said:

Killing mobs was mundane. 

You're using the subjective definition of mundane... As in boring...  I was using the game theory definition of mundane which is non-combat progression, ie gathering, crafting, harvesting, refining, trading.

 

Shadowbane is not a good baseline to strive for, regarding amount of fun or progression pace.  I referenced it because you're in combat from the very start.  You can't compare gathering and crafting in shadowbane because there wasn't any.  You controlled resource nodes with PvP, this fills your Warehouse with resources that you can assign NPCs to craft with.  You can also find resources via mob grind.  There is no mundane game loop outside of the building of you city.

 

I understand that a lot of people are feeling insulted or whatever.  Imagine being a backer that hates the game, would that be a better feeling than what you're feeling?

Edited by philocypher

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18 hours ago, Frykka said:

Intermediate gear is already simple to make and takes very little materials, time or effort... they ARE still adjusting the dust amount which is the only thing that takes a little longer and only at launch with a cold skill start...   after launch dust will be for sale by dust farming players.  You need 9 premium ore or wood to upgrade your basic weap...  and what 24 leather for your int armor...   yes, it is the dust that slows the progression and the amount needed was cut in half from 5.4 to 5.5 same for benches.

I have to chuckle about Killers being the "least social",  that is simply backwards...  crafters are the least social, killers in Crowfall roam in social groups for the most part and have far more opportunity to interact with other players.   I think the whole notion of separating players into these limited and seriously flawed groupings is dumb.

I don't think competitively gathering materials and perhaps fighting over spawns and zones for them is the least bit repetitive, tedious, or boring UNLESS the world is empty of enemies...   Yes that is all of our concern but I cannot fathom how you could make intermediate gear easier besides the dust component.  You don't even need any skills to use the intermediate bench.

Who needs that much knotwood, slag, or cobble to drop...   I move on to premium trees/ore/stone well before I would need 5-10x what we get now.   I grab about 30-40 logs 6-12 cobble or slag and make my weapons, about 15 minutes or the time to level 1-5 in any standard MMO questing progression.   Then in the real game loop it is time to partner up/group up and leave the beachhead anyway and start finding fights ,grabbing a tree or ore node here and there, kill some mobs, skirmish an enemy...  gain some coin, maybe a discipline drop. 

When you reference a player base that does not have the drive to do the things the game requires to compete, or thinks that they can let others do it for them and that others somehow enjoy it "more", I think you are pointing to niche players that CF does not target, those players that act like Arena/MOBA PvP is better somehow because it did not take much effort to get into the fight...   note that those players also demand intrinsic balance in the system whereas Crowfall niche players do not want intrinsic balance to PvP, they want to have better gear than other players if they put in the effort to get it...   that is a big difference in MMO PvP, the players have to work to have a gear advantage.

 

Ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect.  I think you have a serious case of it

Quote

Conversely, highly competent individuals may erroneously assume that tasks easy for them to perform are also easy for other people to perform, or that other people will have a similar understanding of subjects that they themselves are well-versed in.

 

So I spent 4 hours yesterday just checking out the state of things, to see how much it has changed in the last four months. Attached is the image what I managed to acquire between my EK and campaign. I was solo, and found that the best source of what I would call revenue was the boars in the beach head.

rPa8LrY.jpg

I know there is supposed to be a way to craft intermediate stuff, but for the life of me the only thing I could get to in game was a basic weapon, and the other stuff in the basic crafting panel. No advanced tools, no armor, nada.

I have training way way way (as in years) into animal harvesting, so that was what I focused on to get the most materials possible. (All previous trees are 100% full)

eqT6f6c.jpg

Now you may have a very well defined starting plan, and any experienced player that has kept up will, but new players do not, and are not nearly as efficient as you.  I know ACE is going to build the new player experience last, and that is very very thin right now, (The embedded Videos are great so far by the way. Much better than a hand holdy walk though), but if it takes me, a guy who has played since open world started, with almost 3 years worth of time in training focused on harvesting, to pull together what looks like roughly enough material with trade for a full suit of gear, AFTER 4 HOURS OF PLAY,  there is something fundamentally wrong with productivity volumes. 

Harvesters with three years of training should be producing enough for at least a dozen people, not one, and only take about 15-20 minutes to make enough material for a full suit.

I'm going to revise my view on the fix for new players though, based on my experience.  A rather easy fix for new players would be to have an NPC shop in the beachheads that sold unlimited quantities of the basic materials (slag/cobble/knot/hide/dust) for 1 gold each.  [EDIT Make the trades all 2-1, in either direction so 2 of any material gets you 1 gold, and 2 gold gets you any material]. The current gold drop from the boars in the beachhead got me between 18-25 GP per kill, and that sort of exchange would enable all players, regardless of training, the ability to jump start into the trade game without needing to go through the harvesting process, as well as get them a bit of basics in combat. (I also leveled twice doing this)

If those boars are always going to drop that amount of gold, that sorta solves the issue of players not interested in harvesting, having to harvest.

That does mean the game is still going to have piles of PvE grind trying to make money off mobs to feed the merchant costs. They may have gotten away from it for XP/skill grind, but the "whacking things in the environment is valuable and you have to do that alot" mind set is still firmly in place. I could see this coming miles away, which is why I trained animal harvesting even though I wasn't even playing at the time.

But I still think the volumes of material are too low, and there is too much "work" to get to the fun parts.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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