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Is crowfall fundamentally boring?

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On 3/23/2018 at 4:54 PM, Frykka said:

The idea that PvPers only PvP is elitist and wrong...   nearly everyone in crowfall IS a PvPer, and a harvester, maybe even a crafter...   otherwise you are failing to train your second VIP skill.   Harvesting is a PvP activity when resources are scarce and everyone needs them.  Anyone who wants to "just" PvP will probably not be a factor in Crowfall.   This is an opinion, yes, but based on the game loop, the value of PvP contribution does not generally deserve free gear...   team effort across the spectrum will win...  elitism (I only PvP) will lose.

>Gathering and crafting will always be compulsory

>Combat skill ceiling is intentionally low so as to further compel gathering and crafting

 

Thank you for a great summary of what I hate most about the game design as it stands.

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3 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

So I spent 4 hours yesterday just checking out the state of things, to see how much it has changed in the last four months....

Ok, so another hour+ in, and I finally got my "intermediate" gear made, including a weapon that needed the non-basic ores. Going to ignore the hour I spent primarily dust gathering cause that's getting "fixed" for us, but I suspect that fix is intended for testing only, so maybe I should include it.

So in summary. 

6+ hours from start to finish for a player who already knew how to use the menus, how to craft basics, had enough parcels and property to set up intermediate crafting in his EK, harvest, and had almost three years of harvest training, to get to the point of being even a little bit viable in his first PvP fight in a game that bills itself as PvP centered.

Yea, there are several problems here.

  • First and foremost It's the conflict between "I don't want to make it advantageous for players with no skills to start chewing up nodes", and "you need to combine piles of different things gained from a variety of harvesting skills to even get basics."  Those two things just don't work together, and are in total conflict for new players, who won't and can't be expected to hit the world already socializing and having a resource network. To get to intermediate I needed to do the following, which are all represented by different "skills" that should be "optional" for those that want to focus on a different aspect of the game.
    • Harvest Wood. (Knot)
    • Harvest Stone. (Cobble)
    • Harvest Ore. (Slag)
    • Harvest Hide. (Hide)
    • Kill PvE critters. (Boars)
    • Craft Rune tools.
    • Craft alchemy. (Dust pot)
    • Craft Disciplines (Harvesting)
    • Blacksmith (Intermediate)
    • Leather (Intermediate)
  • Second is the HORRIBLE GRIND is considered "effort".  Mother of God how I dreamed that ACE would strip the grind from game.  All the promises to support "players only able to play an hour or two a week" are totally out the window with "hitting staionary things in the environment = valuable and necessary contribution". Sure they stripped it from XP gain, and then went double-down on it in the resource and crafting models.  If I was a 2hr a week player, getting to "intermediate" gear would have taken me a MONTH. Try to guess how many real world players will put up with that.

This latest experience of trying to start out again, has really soured me.  I thought it was bad before, now it is just getting worse and worse. Every time they ratchet it closer to "how it will be for real", they cram more and more delays, effort, and roadblocks to actually getting to the fun part. 

<sarc> I'm sure glad they added those 30 second wait times to building the basically useless gear.  I love to watch the screen show me a non-commercial interruption to my game play for no other reason than to waste more of my time. </sarc>

Sigh.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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8 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

So in summary. 

6+ hours from start to finish for a player who already knew how to use the menus, how to craft basics, had enough parcels and property to set up intermediate crafting in his EK, harvest, and had almost three years of harvest training, to get to the point of being even a little bit viable in his first PvP fight in a game that bills itself as PvP centered

Well any PvP game that lets you loot stuff from other players you kill needs to throw resources at you like it rains in the amazon jungle. If it doesn't, people will get bored and quit. Even being a harvester myself I think it's important to make getting replacement gear as painless as possible and that requires getting crafting mats extremely fast.

I've been playing a Minecraft-like game called Boundless for some time now (roughly going on over 3 years now) and in that game you can make the most very basic tool from thin air called your Totem. You can also craft from thin air the worst light source item in the game called Light Cube. In Crowfall, nobody should have to gather anything to make their very basic set of gear. It's just a waste of time going through that step when there's a better alternative.


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There are so many hoops to jump through to get started in the game that it is scary. 

The new player experience during the tests feels like a very simple one.

Go play a finished game. 

If you are stubborn enough to keep playing or have some other people around who can help you they will be too damn busy trying to get their own stuff for multiple hours/days to deal with anyone new. 

The first question for any game player is am I having fun. 

I tried to get my 24 year old nephew to play. 10 minutes in he asked me if I was custard pranking him. the inclusion of Dust to the practice free TEST discs when you have zero skills at getting dust is a sad joke. 

The 10 MINUTE duration potion to help you get some dust is a sad throwback to a simpler time. 
When I was foolish and still had some hope. 

Gear breaking after 2-3 deaths due to poorly thought out res mechanics is just another damn thing to replace. 

A Brand new map with scarce mats but otherwise fun design is poorly timed with the doober changes. (They fall in a circle halfway up hills and in other inaccessible places very very often.

It will not matter how amazing the end game will be if the critical amount of gatherer/crafter players quit in the first 2 weeks.

It will not matter how amazingly tight the combat is with full discs and skills and gear, if the wolves all leave because there are no more sheep to shear. 

Honestly the thing I keep coming back to is ACE has some truly amazing ideas. But the implementation just keeps rolling failed assembly.

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4 hours ago, entityofsin said:

Well any PvP game that lets you loot stuff from other players you kill needs to throw resources at you like it rains in the amazon jungle. If it doesn't, people will get bored and quit. Even being a harvester myself I think it's important to make getting replacement gear as painless as possible and that requires getting crafting mats extremely fast.

I've been playing a Minecraft-like game called Boundless for some time now (roughly going on over 3 years now) and in that game you can make the most very basic tool from thin air called your Totem. You can also craft from thin air the worst light source item in the game called Light Cube. In Crowfall, nobody should have to gather anything to make their very basic set of gear. It's just a waste of time going through that step when there's a better alternative.

Exactly.

Can we just not have basic tools and instead simply use our hands to get the Rank 0 mats? I don't see how making everyone craft basic tools that break annoyingly often is an introduction to the game. I've been preaching this one for a while. Intermediate crafting should be the first crafting that involves harvesting. The earliest stuff should be gimme-for-free crafted (summoned from our God, for instance), and freely replaceable (by that same God).

I appreciate the concept of entering the new CWs naked, and perhaps that can be a later CW-ruleset, but my feeling is that in the MMO genre, people will expect to be able to do their primary activity (harvesting or combat) immediately and purposefully.

For me, the basic Rank 0 mats should be incredibly important because they are used in structure and city building. They should not be "stepping stones," but an entirely different economic loop that mimics the harvesting/crafting of rare materials and specialty items loop, but does not gate it. Let us harvest the effin' crap out of Rank 0 stuff, with no limitation, and let us combine them into the big stones and lumber and stuff we get out of the chests.

In sum,

  1. The earliest crafting should require no harvesting. Those items (basic weapons, armor, and tools) should be free-to-craft (summon) forever.
  2. The earliest harvesting should require no crafting. Those harvestables should be very easily gotten and enter directly into the end-game crafting loop (on the structures and city-building side). To harvest them by hand is grossly inefficient compared to lumbermills, mines, and quarries and compared to using crafted tools.

So, everyone gets introduced to crafting and harvesting with no barrier-to-entry, and without frustration if killed and lost (easily or freely replaced).

As for Crowfall being boring, my latest experience was a resounding no - Crowfall is not boring, the combat was really quite fun. The extended mini-game I had to play before I could play Crowfall was extremely boring.

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Maybe they can add Passive Gathering and Passive Crafting?

I'll pay an extra few bucks a month for those options. Call if VIP+.

Click a few buttons, come back in a few hours or days and ta dah... my gear is ready ;)

Remove all the pre-made content, gotta fill that gap with something just as mindless. Bang on rocks, click craft and wait for bars to fill. Throw in some RNG cause why not. If it's too simple, won't be worth specializing in, make it too mandatory/tedious and people will run away. Not sure if they've found a good middle ground yet.

For me personally, if I have to put in more time doing things I don't want to do or enjoy vs things I do, simply won't play. Even if CF some how had the best PVP, combat, siege, campaign rulesets, etc, can't see myself putting in countless hours doing whatever random thing I really don't enjoy just to have a wee bit of good times.

Start will be especially rough, but even months down the line, I see it hard for old/new players to be hopping in and out and being able to enjoy themselves without putting in quite a bit of time doing possibly tasks that aren't at the top of their list.

CF as is does not appeal to "modern" gamers. I was under the impression that it would be accessible to an "older" crowd that had other priorities in life yet still wanted to enjoy a great game now and then. Seems like it will require just as much if not more "2nd job" effort as older games did. Which is fine, but for ACE's sake, I hope they find their population before it's too late.

Edited by APE

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11 hours ago, entityofsin said:

Well any PvP game that lets you loot stuff from other players you kill needs to throw resources at you like it rains in the amazon jungle. If it doesn't, people will get bored and quit. Even being a harvester myself I think it's important to make getting replacement gear as painless as possible and that requires getting crafting mats extremely fast.

I've been playing a Minecraft-like game called Boundless for some time now (roughly going on over 3 years now) and in that game you can make the most very basic tool from thin air called your Totem. You can also craft from thin air the worst light source item in the game called Light Cube. In Crowfall, nobody should have to gather anything to make their very basic set of gear. It's just a waste of time going through that step when there's a better alternative.

Agreed.  Fast to acquire, fast to lose is fine, PUBG has that model in spades.

Slow to acquire, fast to lose, is simply going to be the end of the line for this game.  Player time is valuable, and should be cherished not thought of as payment for being allowed to do things in the game.

The problem comes in when you try to tie player time to in game effectiveness so directly.

4 hours ago, APE said:

Maybe they can add Passive Gathering and Passive Crafting?

I'll pay an extra few bucks a month for those options. Call if VIP+.

Click a few buttons, come back in a few hours or days and ta dah... my gear is ready ;)

 

 Strangely that would be a better experience in my mind.  Hourly tickers of resources, based on "training" that you had to capture POI's (refineries) to access, and held your allotted amount until you did, would make for a much more engaging game play than whacking on rocks with sticks.

This whole fantasy about "rise of the harvesters" Blair has is just that if you ask me, and I'm a huge grinder. Searching for a fantasy unicorn player that does not exist any more. You need people committed to a game BEFORE they will accept jumping through piles of hoops for a reward, and 99% of the time that reward better be permanent. Neither of those things are happening here.  You ram into the grind from minute one, and nothing is permanent.

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Honestly I think that the schism between acquisition time of everything, and consumption time of those same things is not one to address by making things easier to obtain. I think its one to address by making the usage period of those things reflective of their value. By Value I mean the only "true currency" in MMOs; TIME.

I said it once in this thread already but I'll say it again.

The cost to craft stuff and the time spent gathering is in no way egregious. The problem is how often you have to do it. Well designed max durability loss repair as a gold sink to create some economic push and pull would do wonders for this problem. Currently gold literally only has value to people trying to run a vendor. It can't be acquired quickly enough to really be reasonable as a primary source of sacrifice xp (and ACE knows this, which is why we see with the spiders they're commoditizing xp explicitly with runebinding and sacrifice items)

For the economy to work, currency has to have value, and the primary problem is that currently the value of currency is lower than diablo 2 gold coins. For harvesting and crafting to feel worthwhile they have to create not only items of significant mechanical power, but of significant practical usability. In a game theoretically designed such that half of the players in any engagement take significant durability hits because both sides of a fight can't win you really have to look long and hard at death as more than a punishment.

Death is not simply a punishment for failing in Crowfall. It is an expected part of the player experience. It is a game specifically not to give players the option to kill one another, but to give players the imperative to kill one another. Its right there in the tag line. It bills itself as a Throne War Simulator.

Corpse runs are a bad system in a game that gives players the imperative to kill each other over fixed points.

Flimsy items are a bad system in a game that gives players the imperative to kill each other at all.

Items that take a long time to craft is not a bad system in a system that gives players an imperative to kill each other. I'd argue it is exactly the opposite. Should those mats make items that are effectively more durable, those mats are also effectively more valuable as drivers for conflict over their acquisition. This is not the case if the items are made cheaper, or harvesting made to output more materials.

The question is the context in which they're gathered. Moves like putting the high rank mats in mob canyons are great. Moves like adding free vessel swapping and multiple dust vectors that combine with disciplines to allow new players with zero training to easily put together 40 dust in ten minutes from the safety of their EKs is not so great.

Its a band aid on a broken system. That broken system is the base effective durability, not the cost and time required to build gear. You can build a full set of intermediates in under an hour without a lick of training. The problem isn't the time and effort required to make starter gear. The problem is that the effort is too quickly invalidated by the natural design of the game. The game is literally designed to get you killed by by people better geared and skilled than you, but the starter gear has even less durability than theirs. In terms of personal time invested it probably took you longer to get because you don't have friends, you don't have a bank full of loot or backup pieces, and you're not in any way established.

Newbie gear needs to encourage risking confrontations with established players and getting out in to exploring the world and getting better gear, and the best way to do that is make it significantly more durable than crafted gear. This maintains the tutorialization and psychological validation of "preparing for battle" for the first time as a new player without constantly hard resetting the player and forcing them to repeat it. It allows them to function in a psychologically similar manner to established players that are wary of death, but not crippled by the fear of repeating that tutorial experience all over again before they've had a chance to start moving in to the "real" durability game by having backup sets on hand or social connections to provide those backup sets.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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12 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Honestly I think that the schism between acquisition time of everything, and consumption time of those same things is not one to address by making things easier to obtain. I think its one to address by making the usage period of those things reflective of their value. By Value I mean the only "true currency" in MMOs; TIME.

I said it once in this thread already but I'll say it again.

The cost to craft stuff and the time spent gathering is in no way egregious. The problem is how often you have to do it. Well designed max durability loss repair as a gold sink to create some economic push and pull would do wonders for this problem. Currently gold literally only has value to people trying to run a vendor. It can't be acquired quickly enough to really be reasonable as a primary source of sacrifice xp (and ACE knows this, which is why we see with the spiders they're commoditizing xp explicitly with runebinding and sacrifice items)

For the economy to work, currency has to have value, and the primary problem is that currently the value of currency is lower than diablo 2 gold coins. For harvesting and crafting to feel worthwhile they have to create not only items of significant mechanical power, but of significant practical usability. In a game theoretically designed such that half of the players in any engagement take significant durability hits because both sides of a fight can't win you really have to look long and hard at death as more than a punishment.

Death is not simply a punishment for failing in Crowfall. It is an expected part of the player experience. It is a game specifically not to give players the option to kill one another, but to give players the imperative to kill one another. Its right there in the tag line. It bills itself as a Throne War Simulator.

Corpse runs are a bad system in a game that gives players the imperative to kill each other over fixed points.

Flimsy items are a bad system in a game that gives players the imperative to kill each other at all.

Items that take a long time to craft is not a bad system in a system that gives players an imperative to kill each other. I'd argue it is exactly the opposite. Should those mats make items that are effectively more durable, those mats are also effectively more valuable as drivers for conflict over their acquisition. This is not the case if the items are made cheaper, or harvesting made to output more materials.

The question is the context in which they're gathered. Moves like putting the high rank mats in mob canyons are great. Moves like adding free vessel swapping and multiple dust vectors that combine with disciplines to allow new players with zero training to easily put together 40 dust in ten minutes from the safety of their EKs is not so great.

Its a band aid on a broken system. That broken system is the base effective durability, not the cost and time required to build gear. You can build a full set of intermediates in under an hour without a lick of training. The problem isn't the time and effort required to make starter gear. The problem is that the effort is too quickly invalidated by the natural design of the game. The game is literally designed to get you killed by by people better geared and skilled than you, but the starter gear has even less durability than theirs. In terms of personal time invested it probably took you longer to get because you don't have friends, you don't have a bank full of loot or backup pieces, and you're not in any way established.

Newbie gear needs to encourage risking confrontations with established players and getting out in to exploring the world and getting better gear, and the best way to do that is make it significantly more durable than crafted gear. This maintains the tutorialization and psychological validation of "preparing for battle" for the first time as a new player without constantly hard resetting the player and forcing them to repeat it. It allows them to function in a psychologically similar manner to established players that are wary of death, but not crippled by the fear of repeating that tutorial experience all over again before they've had a chance to start moving in to the "real" durability game by having backup sets on hand or social connections to provide those backup sets.

I just want to empty-quote this because it's a really good post.


 

 

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It is going to be much, much easier to get gear when crafters start dumping advanced gear with below average rolls on vendors.

It will also be easier to craft when harvesters start selling resources on vendors, so the crafters don't have to harvest first just to craft.

The need for everyone to do everything themselves, the hard way, has a lot to do with the fact that the game isn't finished.


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54 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Honestly I think that the schism between acquisition time of everything, and consumption time of those same things is not one to address by making things easier to obtain. I think its one to address by making the usage period of those things reflective of their value. By Value I mean the only "true currency" in MMOs; TIME.

I said it once in this thread already but I'll say it again.

The cost to craft stuff and the time spent gathering is in no way egregious. The problem is how often you have to do it. Well designed max durability loss repair as a gold sink to create some economic push and pull would do wonders for this problem. Currently gold literally only has value to people trying to run a vendor. It can't be acquired quickly enough to really be reasonable as a primary source of sacrifice xp (and ACE knows this, which is why we see with the spiders they're commoditizing xp explicitly with runebinding and sacrifice items)

For the economy to work, currency has to have value, and the primary problem is that currently the value of currency is lower than diablo 2 gold coins. For harvesting and crafting to feel worthwhile they have to create not only items of significant mechanical power, but of significant practical usability. In a game theoretically designed such that half of the players in any engagement take significant durability hits because both sides of a fight can't win you really have to look long and hard at death as more than a punishment.

Death is not simply a punishment for failing in Crowfall. It is an expected part of the player experience. It is a game specifically not to give players the option to kill one another, but to give players the imperative to kill one another. Its right there in the tag line. It bills itself as a Throne War Simulator.

Corpse runs are a bad system in a game that gives players the imperative to kill each other over fixed points.

Flimsy items are a bad system in a game that gives players the imperative to kill each other at all.

Items that take a long time to craft is not a bad system in a system that gives players an imperative to kill each other. I'd argue it is exactly the opposite. Should those mats make items that are effectively more durable, those mats are also effectively more valuable as drivers for conflict over their acquisition. This is not the case if the items are made cheaper, or harvesting made to output more materials.

The question is the context in which they're gathered. Moves like putting the high rank mats in mob canyons are great. Moves like adding free vessel swapping and multiple dust vectors that combine with disciplines to allow new players with zero training to easily put together 40 dust in ten minutes from the safety of their EKs is not so great.

Its a band aid on a broken system. That broken system is the base effective durability, not the cost and time required to build gear. You can build a full set of intermediates in under an hour without a lick of training. The problem isn't the time and effort required to make starter gear. The problem is that the effort is too quickly invalidated by the natural design of the game. The game is literally designed to get you killed by by people better geared and skilled than you, but the starter gear has even less durability than theirs. In terms of personal time invested it probably took you longer to get because you don't have friends, you don't have a bank full of loot or backup pieces, and you're not in any way established.

Newbie gear needs to encourage risking confrontations with established players and getting out in to exploring the world and getting better gear, and the best way to do that is make it significantly more durable than crafted gear. This maintains the tutorialization and psychological validation of "preparing for battle" for the first time as a new player without constantly hard resetting the player and forcing them to repeat it. It allows them to function in a psychologically similar manner to established players that are wary of death, but not crippled by the fear of repeating that tutorial experience all over again before they've had a chance to start moving in to the "real" durability game by having backup sets on hand or social connections to provide those backup sets.

I don't think your analysis takes into account the loot rules.  A HUGE part of the game is that you could lose literally everything in an instant. 

This ability to lose everything, or even just a large part of your gathered materials if you lose a fight before getting them "home", needs to be considered over and above durability loss and repair.  It doesn't help you that you can repair something, that you no longer possess.

I know the full loot was intended to be reserved for the DREGs, but that also included vessels originally, and that was walked back, and equipped gear being sacrosanct also seems to be a direction they are now heading.   I can't help but think that a big part of that choice was because the difficulty in acquiring gear keeps getting racheded up, seemingly every single test.

When we first started, every player started with the basic weapon ,and armor was trivial to make.  When that was the case guess what, people didn't make much if any gear, prefering to go out and about and bash each others heads in because that was more fun.  Instead of increasing availability of resources for crafting, or convincing people of the value of crafting, or even just letting the natural progression of better gear=more wins handle it, ACE decided to FORCE people to both harvesting and crafting by taking that away.

Low and behold, several months later, and much complaints from players, and the weapons racks show up.  

More people want to play this game to fight, and few craft/harvest.  Those are supposed to be niche roles in a niche game, so I can't see how you can conclude that the effort required to make gear isn't a problem, especially since that effort is only planned to increase not decrease, in the form of time to craft going up to "days to craft a sword".

 

 

 

As I have said before, there is a huge balance disconnect between value and time to acquire, and usefulness.  The way it is now, it feels like ACE is selling paper plates as if they are fine china.

I don't think you can even have all the things they want in the game at the same time.  Shallow power curve, disposable gear, and have that gear take a huge amount of effort to acquire.

All you will end up with is everyone running around with the least effort required/ functional enough gear, because spending hours and hours getting that uber gear that breaks after three to five deaths just is not worth the shallow power curve bonus. Especially given that the only way to get the materials for such gear is supposed to be in the hardest campaigns.

Too many conflicting objectives is making it seem rather muddy.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Scarcity of resources makes everything valuable. At the start of the first campaign it will be a poorly made socksshow. Everything is needed yesterday. 

The Wrath map is fantastic except for the amount of resources, and the doober change causing doobers to get hung up on walls and all the neat new caverns and objects. 

There are not enough resources around to make group gathering viable except in the caverns. But the caverns are not big enough to support multiple groups and the server limit also could not support multiple groups right now. 

All of the little 1-2 small nodes need to be 10-15  small nodes in a close area.  All the single mothernodes with no smalls should be 2-3 mothers with a 5 stack of smalls.  Don't raise the ranks. That is actually pretty good. What we need is amount of available resources to be available.  The tyranny experiment should have shown yall if it is available gatherers will come.  We need poi's dripping with mats of various ranks. So that people have to go get them. Because if they don't go get them the enemies will. 

Low ranks in the outskirts of the maps. Higher ranks at the center of the various adventure parcels and PoI's 
Building resource chests all over the place so people want to carry a few over and build. 

Capturable forts and keeps to fight over. Hell Make a local bank with 6 deposit slots at the final point at the caverns with a flag capture point. Take the area get a nice local bank to store the goods easily. But in taking the point it also gives a toast message. Same thing with the spider queen. Make that area capturable. With a toast message. So people know where some other people are. 

We also need a zombie king. :)

 

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8 minutes ago, Jah said:

It is going to be much, much easier to get gear when crafters start dumping advanced gear with below average rolls on vendors.

It will also be easier to craft when harvesters start selling resources on vendors, so the crafters don't have to harvest first just to craft.

The need for everyone to do everything themselves, the hard way, has a lot to do with the fact that the game isn't finished.

For either of those things to happen, gold has to have compelling utility beyond paying vendors. I should have seen trade EKs explode in the past day or two given my own lazy speed at putting vendors together, but I haven't. Simply put, my items aren't worth anyone's gold when the only think I need gold for is to list more items and pay the vendor. my resources aren't worth anyone's gold when nobody is selling items because of this. There is still no compelling reason to trade mats or crafted items that actually have value for currency that, quite frankly, doesn't.

I'd also posit that the "throwaway rolls" economy will immediately cannibalize itself the moment mass production comes in to play and you're not outputting 4-5 throwaway rolls per good roll, but in stead 4-5 throwaway rolls per blueprint that generates 10+ copies of the good roll. It will at least move the bar for newbies in intermediates to mostly newbies in advanced gear that crit failed once everyone has leveled their crafting vessels.

Vendors alone can't fix the underlying problems with the system's current implementation and I'm interested to see how this landscape changes as more of ACE's planned systems come online and if any of those planned systems address the current deficiencies in the basic gathering versus durability loop.


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1 minute ago, srathor said:

Scarcity of resources makes everything valuable. At the start of the first campaign it will be a poorly made socksshow. Everything is needed yesterday. 

The Wrath map is fantastic except for the amount of resources, and the doober change causing doobers to get hung up on walls and all the neat new caverns and objects. 

There are not enough resources around to make group gathering viable except in the caverns. But the caverns are not big enough to support multiple groups and the server limit also could not support multiple groups right now. 

All of the little 1-2 small nodes need to be 10-15  small nodes in a close area.  All the single mothernodes with no smalls should be 2-3 mothers with a 5 stack of smalls.  Don't raise the ranks. That is actually pretty good. What we need is amount of available resources to be available.  The tyranny experiment should have shown yall if it is available gatherers will come.  We need poi's dripping with mats of various ranks. So that people have to go get them. Because if they don't go get them the enemies will. 

Low ranks in the outskirts of the maps. Higher ranks at the center of the various adventure parcels and PoI's 
Building resource chests all over the place so people want to carry a few over and build. 

Capturable forts and keeps to fight over. Hell Make a local bank with 6 deposit slots at the final point at the caverns with a flag capture point. Take the area get a nice local bank to store the goods easily. But in taking the point it also gives a toast message. Same thing with the spider queen. Make that area capturable. With a toast message. So people know where some other people are. 

We also need a zombie king. :)

 

I like to see the nodes recover/respawn more quickly. 

Yesterday when I was making my first real weapon, I knocked the two nodes down I found, took my 9 copper to spiritbank, (thank you 3 years of training), took it to my EK, ran to my building, crafted my new weapon, logged out, logged in, and then came back only to find the nodes just then re-spawning.

If the nodes came back quickly, there would be reason to stay in the area, reason to hold the location, and reason to form a group and treat in more like a POI than a 60 second pit stop on a harvesting circuit. 

Further to that, I would like to see nodes respawn one tier higher than the previous node, but have that tier decay back to a base after 120 seconds of not being harvested.  More reason to hold a spot, and fight for it.

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25 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I don't think your analysis takes into account the loot rules.  A HUGE part of the game is that you could lose literally everything in an instant. 

This ability to lose everything, or even just a large part of your gathered materials if you lose a fight before getting them "home", needs to be considered over and above durability loss and repair.  It doesn't help you that you can repair something, that you no longer possess.

I know the full loot was intended to be reserved for the DREGs, but that also included vessels originally, and that was walked back, and equipped gear being sacrosanct also seems to be a direction they are now heading.   I can't help but think that a big part of that choice was because the difficulty in acquiring gear keeps getting racheded up, seemingly every single test.

When we first started, every player started with the basic weapon ,and armor was trivial to make.  When that was the case guess what, people didn't make much if any gear, prefering to go out and about and bash each others heads in because that was more fun.  Instead of increasing or convincing people of the value of crafting, or even just letting the natural progression of better gear=more wins handle it, ACE decided to FORCE people to both harvesting and crafting by taking that away.

Low and behold, several months later, and much complaints from players, and the weapons racks show up.  

More people want to play this game to fight, and few craft/harvest.  Those are supposed to be niche roles in a niche game, so I can't see how you can conclude that the effort required to make gear isn't a problem, especially since that effort is only planned to increase not decrease, in the form of time to craft going up to "days to craft a sword".

 

 

 

As I have said before, there is a huge balance disconnect between value and time to acquire, and usefulness.  The way it is now, it feels like ACE is selling paper plates as if they are fine china.

I don't think you can even have all the things they want in the game at the same time.  Shallow power curve, disposable gear, and have that gear take a huge amount of effort to acquire.

All you will end up with is everyone running around with the least effort required/ functional enough gear, because spending hours and hours getting that uber gear that breaks after three to five deaths just is not worth the shallow power curve bonus. Especially given that the only way to get the materials for such gear is supposed to be in the hardest campaigns.

Too many conflicting objectives is making it seem rather muddy.

Having gear that doesn't break so fast amplifies the usefulness of a trained harvester without trivializing harvesting nor trivializing the loot reward of the person that ganks the harvester.

Making the harvester harvest less is simply less reward, and thus less desire to actually hunt down the harvester.

Making the harvester harvest the same amount, but making that pocket full of rocks last longer when turned in to gear amplifies the value of that harvester by allowing him to effectively supply more players due to less replacements. It also directly amplifies the reward for killing him. Now that pocket full of rocks isn't worth ten deaths of gear. its worth 20 or 30. Now that one harvester can keep five people supplied in stead of two.

Which in turn means more people that want to avoid harvesting can.

Edit: For the record, I think full equipment drop campaigns are completely incompatible with this entire economy and bank space design.

Edited by PopeUrban

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8 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

For either of those things to happen, gold has to have compelling utility beyond paying vendors. I should have seen trade EKs explode in the past day or two given my own lazy speed at putting vendors together, but I haven't. Simply put, my items aren't worth anyone's gold when the only think I need gold for is to list more items and pay the vendor. my resources aren't worth anyone's gold when nobody is selling items because of this. There is still no compelling reason to trade mats or crafted items that actually have value for currency that, quite frankly, doesn't.

I'd also posit that the "throwaway rolls" economy will immediately cannibalize itself the moment mass production comes in to play and you're not outputting 4-5 throwaway rolls per good roll, but in stead 4-5 throwaway rolls per blueprint that generates 10+ copies of the good roll. It will at least move the bar for newbies in intermediates to mostly newbies in advanced gear that crit failed once everyone has leveled their crafting vessels.

Vendors alone can't fix the underlying problems with the system's current implementation and I'm interested to see how this landscape changes as more of ACE's planned systems come online and if any of those planned systems address the current deficiencies in the basic gathering versus durability loop.

I'm sad they added gold this way. They already had a potential currency in the form of dust, which does have utility outside of paying vendors.  

Two forms of currency is only making things more complex, not more fun or functional.

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31 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

For either of those things to happen, gold has to have compelling utility beyond paying vendors. I should have seen trade EKs explode in the past day or two given my own lazy speed at putting vendors together, but I haven't. Simply put, my items aren't worth anyone's gold when the only think I need gold for is to list more items and pay the vendor. my resources aren't worth anyone's gold when nobody is selling items because of this. There is still no compelling reason to trade mats or crafted items that actually have value for currency that, quite frankly, doesn't.

I'd also posit that the "throwaway rolls" economy will immediately cannibalize itself the moment mass production comes in to play and you're not outputting 4-5 throwaway rolls per good roll, but in stead 4-5 throwaway rolls per blueprint that generates 10+ copies of the good roll. It will at least move the bar for newbies in intermediates to mostly newbies in advanced gear that crit failed once everyone has leveled their crafting vessels.

Vendors alone can't fix the underlying problems with the system's current implementation and I'm interested to see how this landscape changes as more of ACE's planned systems come online and if any of those planned systems address the current deficiencies in the basic gathering versus durability loop.

Expecting to see trade EKs "explode" 2-3 days after they were introduced, and 2-3 days after a full wipe of inventories and spirit banks seems unrealistic to me. Especially with just 100 to 200 people actively playing in pre-alpha. People have been waiting for a fix to the msg spike problems, and on Friday night that actually looked worse than before. There was a hotfix that resolved that, but a lot of people had already decided to go do something else and may not even be aware of the hotfix yet.

Vendor upkeep is not the only sink for gold coins. They will also be used to pay maintenance for other structures and thralls at minimum. And they can be used to level vessels. It is perfectly reasonable to expect that gold will have more sinks as well, so I think it is a mistake to assume they are "just for paying vendors."

Further, the main reason a seller will want gold is to buy things other people sell. Few people will be able, or want to, acquire everything they want by themselves. A Blacksmith will want things that a Jeweler makes. He'll sell his wares for gold, and use that gold to buy Jewelry. Its the same reason we want money in real life-- not because we can eat or wear the money, but because we can use it to buy stuff we want.

Gold may benefit from being propped up with more built-in utility. But it is also possible that it could work as currency with the backing that we already know is planned for it.


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20 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I'm sad they added gold this way. They already had a potential currency in the form of dust, which does have utility outside of paying vendors.  

Two forms of currency is only making things more complex, not more fun or functional.

I'm fine with a strict delineation of currencies in this manner and I'll try to explain why.

You have harvesters gaining dust, and mob farmers or dudes killing guard to take forts with no harvesting skills are also gaining dust as loot, you have no economic interplay between the two. They have nothing of value to trade one another because only the crafters can utilize the dust, drops, and harvested mats. Thus every economic interaction between a harvester and a combatant must first go through a middle man. Further, if you double down on dust in this way it seems to follow that you must also ratchet up the dust cost of crafting to sink it out of that economy.

On top of that you run up against a problematic question: If harvesting and combat both provide dust, then isn't the optimal economic engine always to do whichever provides the most? You may end up in an EVE-Like situation in this case, where one of these activities is a clearly inferior earner. In The case of EVE, Combat is the clearly inferior earner, but it could easily swing the other way.

Regardless, you can't equitably balance income from hitting inanimate objects with mobs that hit back. One is inherently more risky even if it is theoretically possible to perfectly balance out their dust gain per hour. This creates a situation where the player that wants to earn optimally but prefers the less valuable activity is forced in to doing both roles whether they like to or not.

When you split the currencies down the middle, and have compelling and necessary sinks for both, you end up with naturally fluctuating exchange rate in which players are encouraged to specialize in, and adequately rewarded for a single activity. Because harvesting pops dust, and killing pops gold, you avoid needing to balance the activities against one another because they're codependent as long as all players have some intrinsic need for both currencies.


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I don't think I would call Dust a currency any more than Wood, Stone, and Ore are currencies. It is a raw resource that is used for crafting.


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