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Yumx

Things to consider when balancing the Champion

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3 minutes ago, PAINDOTCOM said:

people are basing their "OP" arguments off bug builds.

I'm basing my opinion on changes I've seen since the class was first introduced.

15 minutes ago, moneda said:

That's because that's what they were designed to do. Before the old archetypes were split into races and classes Myrmidons and Templars were designated as Tanks, Champions Melee DPS. Those roles aren't as steadfast as they once were but in addition to being made tankier Champion hasn't been dealt any significant damage nerfs (the Dominance system actually being a significant buff).

The current Champion is the second best Tank (Templar > *) and the best Melee DPS, and that makes for a broken class.

 

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1 hour ago, AceSiN said:

As for this thread: Almost every suggestion in the OP is horrible as per usual with the "nerf champion" threads. Blazzen is one of the few here that I may not fully agree with, but at least he doesn't try to completely butcher the class.  

I don't think you read my op, these are suggestions to consider when they decide to balance classes, in this case the champion.

I'm basing it off experience playing champ, and against champ in lot's of scrims and group fights.

I'm not trying to butcher the class, I was a champ main for a long time, it has just been severely dumped down, maybe that fits you better - I don't personally like it.

Sure a single champ is easily countered with teamwork, but when there's suddenly more champs you have to watch out for at the same time, then they come out a lot stronger than what other classes you can stack.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, AceSiN said:

Ok, so you 4 killed one of the Champions then? Here's the thing. Champions don't die from battle attrition. You can't spam left click and hope for the best. So, what changed that allowed you 4 to kill one during his kill window? Maybe you started landing cc  chains and  stopped giving the Champ free rein? As a Champion player that would be my first guess. If Champ can die in a 1v1 then they should die in group fights. Champions easily get hit by 90%+ of the CCs/Damage you throw at them. Their heal is only to supplement that lack of protection from not having block and all its benefits.  A good Myrm and Templar player will easily be the tankiest of the 4 frontline melees. A Knight is only hindered by his nonexistent healing and relies too much on barriers that don't scale, so he'll always slowly die from battle attrition, unless supported. 

As someone that has put a lot of time into Champ, I can say there's a big difference between trying to 1vX a group that allows me to rotate my skills to my own rhythm and 1vXing a group that disrupts it. I'll usually die 9/10 against the latter group. The former is just Youtube montage material. 

As for this thread: Almost every suggestion in the OP is horrible as per usual with the "nerf champion" threads. Blazzen is one of the few here that I may not fully agree with, but at least he doesn't try to completely butcher the class.  

as a healer: playing with champions in the group is boring and i can largely ignore them in group fights from a support perspective as well.

6 hours ago, AceSiN said:

OP even boldly states that Champ is the most tanky class.. Willing to bet he just lost a 1v1  to a champ and didn't actually pvp with the all the frontline melee classes before he came up with that opinion. 

maybe read the OP - "been playing champion for a .. little over a year now, been through every patch as champion"

yumx has been playing the champion since before it was cool and when it was still cripplingly buggy and lackluster in terms of 'meta', as well as playing all the other melee classes in roaming and orgnaised group/guild fighting.

e.g.

yumx fighting feburary 2017 (a month after he joined the game) vs winterblades as champion and everyone reaction as to how hipster - but brutally well played - that was ;p

so maybe remove that foot from your mouth and read next time please :)

Edited by Tinnis

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tinnis said:

as a healer: playing with champions in the group is boring and i can largely ignore them in group fights from a support perspective as well.

maybe read the OP - "been playing champion for a .. little over a year now, been through every patch as champion"

yumx has been playing the champion since before it was cool and when it was still cripplingly buggy and lackluster in terms of 'meta', as well as playing all the other melee classes in roaming and orgnaised group/guild fighting.

e.g.

yumx fighting feburary 2017 (a month after he joined the game) vs winterblades as champion and everyone reaction as to how hipster - but brutally well played - that was ;p

so maybe remove that foot from your mouth and read next time please :)

It doesn't matter if he played it before it was cool, and i tend to agree with @AceSiN , just nerfing numbers and removing stuff is butchering a class.

Edited by pamintandrei

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1 hour ago, Tinnis said:

 

stuff

How long he played champ is irrelevant, so not sure why you bothered posting about it. Regardless, his experience clearly doesn't add up to much if he came to the conclusion to butcher the class. Which is exactly what the OP is asking for with the majority of his ideas.  

 

2 hours ago, Tinnis said:

 

so maybe remove that foot from your mouth and read next time please :)

I'll think about removing the foot from my mouth when you remove the sack from yours.  Until then, enjoy. 

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The Champion doesn't need big sweeping changes it just needs a few tweaks here and there. 

  • Remove dominance point generation from leap. Bake the dominator discipline functionality into the class so that LMB crits generate dominance points.
    • One of the biggest issues with Champions is how you can use leap to travel around the map AND maintain lots of dominance points. Generating dominance shouldn't be tied to a movement ability. Make dominance points quickly degenerate so you can't beat on a target dummy to store a bunch of them up.
  • Dominance should only be a 50% increased chance to crit instead of an auto crit. The auto crit is too powerful and it also seems to circumvent the critical hit defense stat. This is the #1 reason champion seems OP. 
  • Ultimate Warrior being a % of max hipoints heal is a bit of an issue going forward. First they buffed champion hitpoints from 4000 base to 5000 base. There are a lot of buffs that raise hitpoints now. Hitpoints will get even higher when we get factories because then you'll be able to put 10 treated steel into armor instead of only 4. Stacking hitpoints makes the heal too strong when it is based on a % of max hitpoints. It should probably be a 2000ish point base heal plus some % of weapon damage so it does scale upwards SOME with better weapons but not as much as it does right now when stacking hitpoints. With a high end 150 dmg weapon it should probably heal for around 2500.
  • Fix second/third wind to work correctly. Coupled with Leap and hurlbat to create space this is a very powerful ability to regain health but it needs to work properly where it triggers after a few seconds of avoiding damage but then stops as soon as the Champion takes damage. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, AceSiN said:

not sure why you bothered posting about it

"Willing to bet he just lost a 1v1  to a champ and didn't actually pvp with the all the frontline melee classes before he came up with that opinion. "

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While i have been an investor since 2016 (maybe 2015) i just now decided to to pick up the game so i cannot speak of the actual balance in the game at its current state. I can only play ghost of Christmas past and remind everyone how ridiculous Barbarians were in SB. Stun immune, 9K HP and two shotting mages. It inherently balances out though, because while they destroyed in open world group v group in a raid situation as soon as they crossed the line of scrimmage into mage range got lit the f@$% up by 30 mages/healers. Melee is going to be over powered in a small group/ solo pvp because in siege pvp it really cant compete.

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19 minutes ago, Vonsnazzy said:

While i have been an investor since 2016 (maybe 2015) i just now decided to to pick up the game so i cannot speak of the actual balance in the game at its current state. I can only play ghost of Christmas past and remind everyone how ridiculous Barbarians were in SB. Stun immune, 9K HP and two shotting mages. It inherently balances out though, because while they destroyed in open world group v group in a raid situation as soon as they crossed the line of scrimmage into mage range got lit the f@$% up by 30 mages/healers. Melee is going to be over powered in a small group/ solo pvp because in siege pvp it really cant compete.

While this is true in theory, champion self-healing is kinda ridiculous right now (apparently, UW's immunity means healing debuts don't even work). Combined with the best mobility and the best burst damage in the game, there's not much downside to the champ right now. Mobility seems to have been nerfed in 5.6 (which feels like a weird choice on the devs' part), and balance isn't the primary concern right now, so we'll just have to wait and see.

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11 hours ago, Wuduwasa said:

While this is true in theory, champion self-healing is kinda ridiculous right now (apparently, UW's immunity means healing debuts don't even work). Combined with the best mobility and the best burst damage in the game, there's not much downside to the champ right now. Mobility seems to have been nerfed in 5.6 (which feels like a weird choice on the devs' part), and balance isn't the primary concern right now, so we'll just have to wait and see.

 

Gotcha, yeah i'm sure there is alot of ground level balance tweaks that need to happen before release

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On 18.05.2018 at 7:29 PM, Wuduwasa said:

 Mobility seems to have been nerfed in 5.6 (which feels like a weird choice on the devs' part), and balance isn't the primary concern right now, so we'll just have to wait and see.

Nope, the leap bug was fixed.

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