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Exlex

How is stealth in this game?

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Hi,

I was wondering how stealth is working in Crowfall.

As far as I can tell, it doesn't seem to affect minions since they engage me when I am 25 meters away. This isn't a big deal so far, but still annoying if I want to pass an area safely.

Knowing stealth from other games like WoW, GW2 or Heroes of the Storm, could someone explain me how it works in comparison?

In WoW you are stealthed as long as you want and the chance of getting detected is very low and only occures if you are really Close (2-3 meters) from the target.

In GW2, if I remember well, once a character entered stealth mode, it was completely invisible but it did only last a certain time and had a CD.

In Heroes of the Storm you can see stealthed characters if you pay a little attention (shape is visible).

 

I have not met a stealthed enemy so far and therefore I cannot tell how it looks like for the enemy when I am stealthed. :)

 

Thank you in advance for you answer(s).

 

Exlex

 

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Stealth is countered by percepetion abilities and the perception skill.

In when you enter your stealth tray or turn on a stealth power, you are completely invisible to all enemy players unless those players are using a perception skill.

If those players ARE using a perception skill, the range at which they can see you is determined by both their perception stat and your stealth stat. Think of them like bubbles. you have a stealth bubble that represents how much noice you're making, and they have a perception bubble that determines how closely they're listening to find stealthers. If your bubble is touching their bubble, they can see you, and if you take damage or expose effects you will be forcibly unstealthed. Your stealth stat makes your bubble smaller, and their perception stat makes their bubble bigger. You can also be destealthed by taking damage even if the one that dealt it could see you (for example, blind casting AoEs to try to reveal you) There are also a few long lasting ground AoE skills specifically designed to not only reveal stealthers, but deal additional fire damage over time if they successfully reveal.

When an enemy can see you but you have not been knocked out of stealth yet, you appear very much the same as you do to yourself, with a purple see-through effect. When knocked out of stealth and made visible to everyone, you return to your normal appearance.

There are several class and racial powers that grant temporary or conditional stealth, but the masters of stealth, duelists and assassins have an entire power tray complete with passive ability slots ad class specific stealth only powers devoted to stealth, and they can remain in this tray as long as they like. There are also a few disciplines that grant extra stealth tray skills that can only be used by these classes.

Rangers have the longest lasting perception skill which works for the whole party, followed by the mole hunter discipline which any class can take which also works for the whole party, and on the shortest end at only 15 seconds, Elken have a racial perception skill that only works for themselves.

Rangers who ALSO take the mole hunter discipline (and thus can use both abilities to cover each other's cooldowns) are the only characters that can keep perception up permanently, while other characters have periods where they are unable to reveal due to the cooldown of the perception abilities being longer than their duration.

ACE has stated on many occasions that they would like to add stealth to disciplines to give other classes the option to add a stealth tray to their character at the cost of a discipline slot. The ability for all mobs to see through stealth is unintended, and ACE intends for that ability to be dependant on mob type. Some mobs will be more perceptive than others.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Thank you very much for this helpful answer, PopeUrban, all my questions are answered. :)

Have a good day!

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I'd add that this system is really under-developed, and far too "simple" for my tastes. I'm hoping they change it, in the near or distant future to be something with more depth and requiring a greater level of skill to play as (or against). 

As of right now, the entire system is little better than what you'd find in WoW (and their system is considerably superior to Crowfall's as far as I'm concerned).

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1 hour ago, Scree said:

I'd add that this system is really under-developed, and far too "simple" for my tastes. I'm hoping they change it, in the near or distant future to be something with more depth and requiring a greater level of skill to play as (or against). 

As of right now, the entire system is little better than what you'd find in WoW (and their system is considerably superior to Crowfall's as far as I'm concerned).

I would like to think a fair bit of this is reliant on positional audio and that part will be a large contributor to skillful stealth play. The "bubble touching" mechanic hasn't quite made itself apparent to me in any way so I just assume it is not implemented yet.

That being said, I hope it is related to the sound indicator and doesn't just flat out show a phantom version of your character to your opponents when the conditions are met. Unless they are implying that when the bubbles touch you are pulled out of stealth... Idk. Maybe best to avoid assumptions at this point ?

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3 hours ago, Lightsig said:

I would like to think a fair bit of this is reliant on positional audio and that part will be a large contributor to skillful stealth play. The "bubble touching" mechanic hasn't quite made itself apparent to me in any way so I just assume it is not implemented yet.

That being said, I hope it is related to the sound indicator and doesn't just flat out show a phantom version of your character to your opponents when the conditions are met. Unless they are implying that when the bubbles touch you are pulled out of stealth... Idk. Maybe best to avoid assumptions at this point ?

As of 5.5 the mechanics appear to be working properly (though I haven't spent much time testing the impact of stacking stealth or perception as relates to range) the only real killer at the moment is the AI ignoring it and the clunkiness of the double tray swap (but survival/combat tray stuff is kind of its own clunky issue separate from stealth)

I'm interested in what Scree thinks would be a better stealth system. This seems pretty good to me given the limitations of where stealth has to work for stealth based classes to remain viable in the majority of the game's terrain. Its functional in an open field, easier to remain hidden with the use of LOS blockers, creates opportunities for smart counterplay on both ends, and assuming stealth/perception are actually noticable has functional build choices attached to it.


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2 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

As of 5.5 the mechanics appear to be working properly (though I haven't spent much time testing the impact of stacking stealth or perception as relates to range) the only real killer at the moment is the AI ignoring it and the clunkiness of the double tray swap (but survival/combat tray stuff is kind of its own clunky issue separate from stealth)

I'm interested in what Scree thinks would be a better stealth system. This seems pretty good to me given the limitations of where stealth has to work for stealth based classes to remain viable in the majority of the game's terrain. Its functional in an open field, easier to remain hidden with the use of LOS blockers, creates opportunities for smart counterplay on both ends, and assuming stealth/perception are actually noticable has functional build choices attached to it.

The AI ignoring all stealth is pretty annoying, especially when using your ultimate and still getting pulled out of stealth almost immediately!

I don't get any weird sound issues like before but I don't seem to hear any noise when a stealther is nearby. Wouldn't know if that was a problem because I don't really know what the functional expectation of that system is.

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@PopeUrban My feeling is the current system is too dumbed down to be its own "activity" in the game (the act of hunting/stealthing). I'd actually already written up my concerns so I'll repost them here. Some of my problems with the proposed/existing stealth system in bullet form;

  • Stealth vs Perception isn’t really a skill check anymore (in the traditional D&D sense with RNG). They merely expand or shrink the corresponding “bubbles” surrounding the stealther and anti-stealther. If the max anti-stealth bubble radius is 25m and the min stealth bubble radius is 5m then technically a god-like stealther can still be made visible 30m away when both stealth and anti-stealth are maxed (remember if the bubbles touch, stealther is exposed) That’s a bit much for me to accept considering movement speed while stealthed and…
     
  • There is no reason for an anti-stealther to not spam your reveal powers on cooldown right now. The cooldown is too low, too frequent, and there is no penalty nor reason not to spam. Expect this to get macro’d at high-level play (regardless if you publicly forbid macro-usage). Even if you increase the cooldown, the problem of having no reason NOT to pop it every time remains.
     
  • There is no directional logic to any of the “reveal” powers, it’s a 360-degree GUARANTEED reveal. Nothing in this game is guaranteed nor should the revealing of a stealther be. There is no reward for sneaking up behind a player or following them from behind at a distance. The current design ignores traditional stealth approach, simplifying it.
     
  • Stealth skills seem to be positioned all over the skill trees right now, with no consolidated skill tree just for stealth users. I know a Stealth tree was originally planned but forcing players to choose between combat efficacy or stealth expertise is a great way to diversify skill progression. This needs to be a thing to reward players emphasizing stealth (just like the tracking skill trees should also 

Proposed fixes;

  • Stealth vs Anti-stealth should be a battle of stats. Gear, vessels, race and class choices, and skills should allow for players to excel in these roles. Specialization in Stealth should be an active choice, not merely a natural path for all rogues to go down (currently a foregone conclusion like most of the skill tree “choices” right now). It should not be an easy way to avoid combat. Stealth should require the same dedication as any crafter, or combat expert. 
     
  • The “reveal” mechanic should be a mix 25% random dice roll, 75% stat-based equation (or something to this nature).  A player who opts out of gearing for anti-stealth role or who forgoes the Perception training routes should never be able to reveal a max-trained, max-geared stealther (the one exception being damage of course). 
     
  • They have the directional tech available to them. The 25% random dice roll bonus should only be granted when an anti-stealther is facing a stealther in a 180-degree arc (or 90 degree + skill training) in front of them. Remove the bonus entirely when a stealther is behind them. This still technically benefits players who position themselves to sneak up on someone, and also simultaneously rewards anti-stealthers who just greatly exceed the Perception vs Stealth skill check regardless of location versus untrained 
  • No reveal skill should be spammable or ongoing (with few exceptions like Flare which should have visible effects to warn off stealthers if they pay attention), the effect should be instant, and then disappear.
     
  • Tracking has yet to appear in-game, but the Stealth skill tree should include active counters to any tracking mechanics. Some concepts included below include unlockable active-powers and passives (something I think the skill tree needs more of);

Additional Concept: A from-stealth active power that causes any trackers directional sense of that stealther to go haywire. 
Additional Concept 2: Alert a stealther that he is being actively tracked (passive power). 
Additional Concept 3: A passively trained skill that causes the tracker to lose the “scent” and forces him to re-queue his target (assuming tracking requires the player to stand still while starting the tracking process.

Edited by Scree

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@Scree I could be on board regarding the cone, but no thank you in regards to adding a buncha dice rolls to it. There's nothing skillful about a system that literally reveals or keeps you hidden based upon a die roll. There's plenty skillful about the game of ranges in play currently, and the ranged initiators given to stealth templates. Currently anyone who builds for stealth can pretty reliably outrange perception powers to initiate, and the perception buffs are quite visible. In addition, because of the nature of perception buffs not "full revealing" stealthers, the use of LOS blockers is a highly potent tool for maintaining stealth even within the range of a perception buff. I really don't see a problem with certain (literally one) build running perception on cooldown considering "true stealth" is a baked in class feature that's a toggle.

In practice its quite challenging to reveal a stealther with the existing tools even without the cone.

Unless you're a ranger running mole hunter, spamming on cooldown is simply a great way to get stealth ganked by any skilled duelist or assassin. The stealther can see the buff from well outside its range, see when it ends, and knows their window to strike is pretty darn wide. IF you're a ranger running mole hunter, yeah, you're at 100% uptime and you had to give up a major for it and 2 hotbar slots if you actually want to keep it going in all your trays, where as the pure stealthers got a resource-free toggle as a basic class feature. Seems pretty balanced to me.

Edited by PopeUrban

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@Scree

Have there been any statements regarding the implementation of in game macros?

The main way to combat something like that would be to make more abilities, if possible, to work as reticle based cones or placed as an aoe to reduce passive play. With a significant enough cool down it would also encourage you to reserve its use and make it less desirable to auto cast off cooldown.

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15 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

@Scree I could be on board regarding the cone, but no thank you in regards to adding a buncha dice rolls to it. There's nothing skillful about a system that literally reveals or keeps you hidden based upon a die roll. There's plenty skillful about the game of ranges in play currently, and the ranged initiators given to stealth templates. Currently anyone who builds for stealth can pretty reliably outrange perception powers to initiate, and the perception buffs are quite visible. In addition, because of the nature of perception buffs not "full revealing" stealthers, the use of LOS blockers is a highly potent tool for maintaining stealth even within the range of a perception buff. I really don't see a problem with certain (literally one) build running perception on cooldown considering "true stealth" is a baked in class feature that's a toggle.

In practice its quite challenging to reveal a stealther with the existing tools even without the cone.

Unless you're a ranger running mole hunter, spamming on cooldown is simply a great way to get stealth ganked by any skilled duelist or assassin. The stealther can see the buff from well outside its range, see when it ends, and knows their window to strike is pretty darn wide. IF you're a ranger running mole hunter, yeah, you're at 100% uptime and you had to give up a major for it and 2 hotbar slots if you actually want to keep it going in all your trays, where as the pure stealthers got a resource-free toggle as a basic class feature. Seems pretty balanced to me.

You are forgetting that we are missing one system which lopsidedly tilts the balance of power away from stealthers;  tracking.

Once tracking is implemented, detecting stealthers becomes a game of wackamole. Literally.

Make no mistake, my larger post above was accounting for all of the design decisions still coming down the pipe and not based on the current status of stealth as it exists in the game right now. Yours seemingly ignores all the future-tech still coming.

I don't mean to sound the alarm without seeing it fully implemented, but I see a highly enjoyable one-sided game for people to hunt stealthers. I don't see stealthers as having much fun once they can be tracked to within 30-50 yards (untrained/ungeared stealthers early on?) and immediately exposed (and expose-punished by rangers).

Edited by Scree

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27 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

@Scree

Have there been any statements regarding the implementation of in game macros?

The main way to combat something like that would be to make more abilities, if possible, to work as reticle based cones or placed as an aoe to reduce passive play. With a significant enough cool down it would also encourage you to reserve its use and make it less desirable to auto cast off cooldown.

I don't imagine even if they had a stance, that there is much they could do about it. A Macroed key press can't be detected by a client, it's simply another piece of software "pressing" a key for you. There are some tools that will even randomize the press, within a given range, so that detection scripts would be utterly useless if they DID bother to try to stop it. In a war between tech-savvy gamers and developers intent on dictating how gamers should play, the developers will always lose. They can't spend resources stopping something, especially this game with its limited resources. Even if they did, they'd lose the war as players left their game because the activity they are macroing is important enough to macro that they failed at designing an activity that was repetitive enough to replace with a pecking bird.

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7 hours ago, Scree said:

You are forgetting that we are missing one system which lopsidedly tilts the balance of power away from stealthers;  tracking.

Once tracking is implemented, detecting stealthers becomes a game of wackamole. Literally.

Make no mistake, my larger post above was accounting for all of the design decisions still coming down the pipe and not based on the current status of stealth as it exists in the game right now. Yours seemingly ignores all the future-tech still coming.

I don't mean to sound the alarm without seeing it fully implemented, but I see a highly enjoyable one-sided game for people to hunt stealthers. I don't see stealthers as having much fun once they can be tracked to within 30-50 yards (untrained/ungeared stealthers early on?) and immediately exposed (and expose-punished by rangers).

Considering we have no information on what form stealth will take we don't even know if it is an efficient or effective means of countering stealth, nor do we know what measures exist to counter it. Considering Crowfall's overall design methodology is in favor of hard counters and opportunity costs might it not be a bit premature to state that tracking makes stealth "a game of wackamole?"

To my knowledge all we've been told about stealth in crowfall is that it will exist.


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Ahhh see you are wrong there. They've actually extensively described how Stealth will work. That's why it was summarized above. Read this; 

https://stealthed.blog/crowfall-stealth-take-two/

Note that the original video on Twitch has come down, I was only able to find this as a replacement reference quickly. This is how Stealth is operating in the game right now. Its fairly easy to replicate, even if some of the interaction is bugged at the moment.

edit: check out this updated clip, found the original reference.

 

 

Edited by Scree

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@Scree

This was my understanding. Because of that I see no reason in investing in stealth in its current state and focus my stealth classes on disciplines that add more power when out of stealth.

The way they talk about it in this video makes me think that "sound" is a modifier on stealth bubble and not literally a sound you are expected to hear, but hopefully I am misinterpreting! Sound seems crucial for this system to not be too lopsided in favor of stealth or anti stealth. It also helps to avoid a scenario where players are perms invisible against players without a perception activating skill.

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I agree as Stealth stands, investing anything in stealth is mostly a waste. You'll be tracked and hunted down like scum with little ability for your training in stealth/gear choices to impact your chances of survival. Imagine all of the gatherers or crafters who think Stealth will provide them safety. Just wait. 

Unless Tracking can't target people in stealth, they've made this less a game of cat and mouse, and more a game of five cats and a 3 legged blind mouse.

Edited by Scree

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8 hours ago, Scree said:

I agree as Stealth stands, investing anything in stealth is mostly a waste. You'll be tracked and hunted down like scum with little ability for your training in stealth/gear choices to impact your chances of survival. Imagine all of the gatherers or crafters who think Stealth will provide them safety. Just wait. 

Unless Tracking can't target people in stealth, they've made this less a game of cat and mouse, and more a game of five cats and a 3 legged blind mouse.

/s What you think the Stealth system should benefit people who invest into the system?  It is known that everyone hates stealthers.  There just isnt any room for such griefers in this Play To Crush game. :rolleyes:


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I think that the impact of sound has to play a large roll in both detection and avoidance. The amount of sound a player makes should be tied to class, race, dexterity, equipment, terrain type. Sound provides detect ability when the stealthier approaches from outside the perception arc. Scree is correct in wanting perception skills concentrated in some fashion in front and to a lesser extent peripherally. I agree with his earlier post, and I hope the developers actually put some depth into the final stealth system. 

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On 4/10/2018 at 3:11 PM, Scree said:

You are forgetting that we are missing one system which lopsidedly tilts the balance of power away from stealthers;  tracking

Hopefully Tracking will get its own tree in exploration......same with anti tracking to maintain the balance

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