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Brightdance

Get Rid of 50% Bonus

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Yup, I didn't think I'd say this but boy am I sick of the half pip bonus. It is utterly infuriating to basically only craft for a lucky roll. This should not be the case. 

Crafting should be an art and if done right a great piece of equipment should be the result. This is not the case right now. Currently, you carefully craft all the pieces to get to the final assembly and have a chance at a worthwhile piece. Roll a Success and throw it away, start over.

At first, this didn't bother me so much but as someone who basically logs on just to craft daily, it is getting to the point that I just don't want to bother.

Don't know what else to say except something here isn't right. I'm a big supporter of this crafting system... I'll go as far as to say I totally love it. Except for this one part of it because it really takes it COMPLETELY out of your hands and puts it on a lucky roll. 

BD

 

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15 minutes ago, Brightdance said:

Yup, I didn't think I'd say this but boy am I sick of the half pip bonus. It is utterly infuriating to basically only craft for a lucky roll. This should not be the case. 

Crafting should be an art and if done right a great piece of equipment should be the result. This is not the case right now. Currently, you carefully craft all the pieces to get to the final assembly and have a chance at a worthwhile piece. Roll a Success and throw it away, start over.

At first, this didn't bother me so much but as someone who basically logs on just to craft daily, it is getting to the point that I just don't want to bother.

Don't know what else to say except something here isn't right. I'm a big supporter of this crafting system... I'll go as far as to say I totally love it. Except for this one part of it because it really takes it COMPLETELY out of your hands and puts it on a lucky roll. 

BD

 

Your right.

That bonus is such a skewed value numerically speaking from an odds point of view, it basically makes any other option when trying to get the best results, untenable. 

To simply understand it, if the odds of rolling an amazing success on one pip is  50/50 (NOT EVEN CLOSE), and you need to do this 8 times consecutively to run out of pips, you will do this .4% of the time, or once every 256 attempts. The odds of an amazing success on 8 pips would therefore need to be <.4% or happen less than 1/256 tries, for it to be riskier go for broke every single time.

The only utility of individual pips is when you are being ultra conservative on resources, and have to produce something useful on your attempt.

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24 minutes ago, Brightdance said:

Yup, I didn't think I'd say this but boy am I sick of the half pip bonus. It is utterly infuriating to basically only craft for a lucky roll. This should not be the case. 

Crafting should be an art and if done right a great piece of equipment should be the result. This is not the case right now. Currently, you carefully craft all the pieces to get to the final assembly and have a chance at a worthwhile piece. Roll a Success and throw it away, start over.

At first, this didn't bother me so much but as someone who basically logs on just to craft daily, it is getting to the point that I just don't want to bother.

Don't know what else to say except something here isn't right. I'm a big supporter of this crafting system... I'll go as far as to say I totally love it. Except for this one part of it because it really takes it COMPLETELY out of your hands and puts it on a lucky roll. 

BD

 

 I was just talking about this with @Phylor.the.Jester if feels like an unnecessary RNG added to an already clouded RNG roll?  

What master craftsman YOLO's something instead of taking the time and effort to make it amazing?

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I want the risk = to the reward. Yolo the hell out of it and if it is not a base failure means you get something better. A Lot better. But it should also almost always fail. 

I do wish they would put in the scaling increases for material quality again.  And also add in the scaling difficulty for quality of mats as well.  White has just the base bonus over Grey, but ease of use makes it a solid choice for skilled crafters to take more risk.  As you go up the color scale it gets harder. Skilled crafters mitigate the risk of the failures and can even help their chances a great deal for better rolls. 

The truly epic items are using epic mats, have some epic rolls involved as well. But no epic material item should be worse than an average rolled average mat item. Even a base Success roll should have enough boosts from the materials to match a great rolled white item. 

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The thing that kills me is I can't see where the disconnect is....That being said, I do not have a crafted vessel for my crafter. I have maxxed out a Blacksmith, Leather Worker, Rune Crafter and Wood Worker. I have a hard enough time single pipping good rolls,  If I half pip it i risk rolling complete garbage. 

Half pipping should at least, given that I am max trained, deliver good results. But... wait!... no...For an example.... this is about how my rolls usually go...I get good, moderate, moderate, good, Amazing , Failure, moderate, good and Moderate..? I'm leaving out the crit failures that always seem to pop at the end of the experimentation line...It's frustrating to say the least.

Edited by Armegeddon

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I think the experimentation risk bonus needs some improvements, but I wouldn't remove it. I don't like the fact that it is all-or-none. You either get the bonus for 50+% risk, or you don't There is no bonus at 49% risk, and the bonus at 100% risk is no better than the bonus at 50% risk. There should be more gradation.

I also don't like the fact that having an odd number of experimentations points is a marked disadvantage compared to an even number. It doesn't make any sense, and it is just a side effect of the risk bonus being an all-or-none bonus at 50+% risk.

Its also a bit odd that highly skilled crafters can't get the bonus in some cases because they have too many experimentation points available to hit 50% risk on an item.

Edited by Jah

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6 minutes ago, Jah said:

 

I also think the fact that having an odd number of experimentations points is marked disadvantage compared to an even number. It doesn't make any sense, and it is just a side effect of the risk bonus being an all-or-none bonus at 50+% risk.

 

this a solid point Phylor was describing how he sometimes takes off rings to shift the total pips ? I thought I was the only crazy person to do this.

The oddity that you would feel the need to lower your skills to craft bothers me 

 

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There's also the issue of being a high level crafter with 14-18 pips and not being able to get the bonus beyond the first roll on lower quality items with 2 experimentation lines because you can't use up all of your pips to roll 50/50. 

 

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4 hours ago, Anhrez said:

What master craftsman YOLO's something instead of taking the time and effort to make it amazing?

 

Yes! I care about my craft!

4 hours ago, srathor said:

... no epic material item should be worse than an average rolled average mat item. Even a base Success roll should have enough boosts from the materials to match a great rolled white item. 

 

Yes!

8 minutes ago, Jah said:

I also think the fact that having an odd number of experimentations points is marked disadvantage compared to an even number. It doesn't make any sense, and it is just a side effect of the risk bonus being an all-or-none bonus at 50+% risk.

Its also a bit odd that highly skilled crafters can't get the bonus in some cases because they have too many experimentation points available to hit 50% risk on a item.

2

All these points I have made and even brought up in Q&A to which they gave a poor answer and pointed at factories... hope they are listening...

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2 hours ago, blazzen said:

I like the idea of risk / bonus scaling upwards gradually pip by pip instead of only getting the bonus at 50%. 

It would have to be sound mathematically. 

If the odds of pulling an amazing success is 50% less for each pip, then the bonus for the outcome should be marginal, or it once again becomes the ONLY real choice,

Also consider the other advantage to going all in, lower build times.  Not really a big deal now, but when they start to apply "real" time to that, it skews it even more.

I would almost rather they reverse the entire "risk" paradigm. 

Risk = Number of chances taken total, not all at once.

If you go all in at once it's less risk, and no bonus. For each successful individual pip you roll, you get a cumulative bonus for not screwing up the previous steps. Sort of a "Press your Luck" type of game.

"Big bucks, no whammies"

Highly skilled crafters could roll the same pip position multiple times, to try to get a better roll for that position, which also increases the risk factor that you will screw up somewhere along the way.  So a two pip item could see a master crafter try to roll the first pip 6 times before moving onto the second. Do I take the great success and move on, or risk what I have built on a critical failure?

That model would be far more mathematically sound than the current "All in", go for broke every time nonsense.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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While I would like to see bonuses at other levels than 50%, I think we need to see factories added to the game before they make major changes to the current process. With factories, we are going to be less averse to risk because we won't have to get good rolls every time. We get one set of good rolls, blueprint it and mass produce it. Then with those items, we craft the next component until we get the result we want, and then blueprint and mass produce it. There will be some waste, but but overall it will produce more reliable results than it does now.

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7 minutes ago, Arkade said:

While I would like to see bonuses at other levels than 50%, I think we need to see factories added to the game before they make major changes to the current process. With factories, we are going to be less averse to risk because we won't have to get good rolls every time. We get one set of good rolls, blueprint it and mass produce it. Then with those items, we craft the next component until we get the result we want, and then blueprint and mass produce it. There will be some waste, but but overall it will produce more reliable results than it does now.

I think the fundamental problem with the system as it stands now, is you are never as a crafter asked the question, "Should I stop now with what I have, or push my luck?"

With RNG/Gambling that is almost the only question worth asking, and with the system as it now is, that question is never asked.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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> Be me, A fully skilled Alchemist/Necromancer

> Spend a day collecting up all the parts, minerals and additives to make a green vessel.

> Spend another day leveling that vessel.

> Because of the 50% buff, I need a "dump stat" and an even number of crafting points

> Realize that I'm making green vessels for everyone, and all of necromancy has exactly one experimentation stat.

> Stop leveling int at 14.9 experimentation points and avoiding crafting gear like the custard plague because buffing my crafting stats any more would actually nerf my crafted items.

> Realize that under the current system you literally need a separate vessel for each rarity tier of necromancy due to lack of a dump stat if you want to maximize rolls.

> Make greentext style post on forums to complain.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Agreed. This is the first crafting system that I enjoy, however I equally hate it just as much because of the rng. It's on Korean MMO levels of frustration. 

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The even vs odd numbers is the worst thing in my opinion.

But to change this you can't make a direct bonus = risk system or most skilled crafters will get worst results (more available pips = less risk).

Imho the change should be in the calculation of the improvement. Right now is a linear function of the number of pips, a good success with 1 pip gives you 5.6%, with 2 pips 2x5.6%. I think using a quadratic function or something like that would reward risk, it would be progressive and it wouldn't depend on the number of pips available. They would need to figure out how to manage the bonus when experimenting on several lines at the same time.

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I know this is essentially a replica of SWG crafting but I don't recall the YOLO method getting a 50% bonus. None of the SWG crafting guides that still exist mention it. I don't remember how the math worked exactly but it's driving me nuts to think I was doing it wrong all along. But I fully support doing away with this 50% bonus thing.

Best possible craft should be achieved by rolling an amazing assembly and then amazing success each time per the number of experimentation points available. I thought there had been some talk of each roll impacting the next and so forth.

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On 4/8/2018 at 10:31 AM, SONofHUD said:

I know this is essentially a replica of SWG crafting but I don't recall the YOLO method getting a 50% bonus. None of the SWG crafting guides that still exist mention it. I don't remember how the math worked exactly but it's driving me nuts to think I was doing it wrong all along. But I fully support doing away with this 50% bonus thing.

Best possible craft should be achieved by rolling an amazing assembly and then amazing success each time per the number of experimentation points available. I thought there had been some talk of each roll impacting the next and so forth.

Nah. I think the general idea is a solid one, its just poorly executed.

It should be a linear scale of bonus and difficulty based on points spent rather than an arbitrary 50% cutoff point, with a bonus to experimentation for each point beyond the item's maximum. Spending one point at a time? No bonus, but you're almost guaranteed to get at least a good success on those rolls as long as your experimentation success chance is up to snuff. Spend like 8 points at a time? That's a much harder roll, but your bonus should scale in a linear fashion. Spend ALL 20 POINTS on two stats on a legendary? That's the hardest roll in the game, BUT if you can pull it off and get that amazing success you're printing money with that blueprint.

Don't base it in any way around how many points the crafter actually has to spend. Just base it on TotalItemPoints/NumberOfStats. In stead, give the crafter a bonus to their experimentation stat for each unspendable experimentation point. If you're making, say, a green item with 2 experimentable stats, the maximum you could spend on it is 14 points. Well lets say you have 17 points to spend. Well we're gonna take those points and give you, say, a 1% bonus to experimentation success for each one. So now you can not only still try for the "perfect green" by spending 14 points in one big yolo roll to get the maximum bonus, but its actually a little easier for you to succeed that roll since you're so skilled.

This would prevent a maxed out 20-point legendary crafter from breaking the system by creating a strictly better common item since he'd still be limited by the usable experimentation points on it, BUT since he has so many more points than he could possibly spend on it, he gets to treat the difficulty of those rolls as far easier. This lets him more reliably succeed riskier and higher payout rolls because he's effectively turning his extra experimentation points in to a bonus to experimentation success.

Another option would be to let the crafter use their points to reroll the last roll. I"ll use a simple one here. You're making a head with necromancy. Its green, and you can only spend a total of 8 points on grade. You have 17 points. You decide to YOLO 8 points and fail. Now you have 9 points left. In the current system those nine points do nothing for you. In the above system those nine points were making it easier for you to succeed. In a reroll system you just click a button next to the stat that says "undo" those first 8 points are still used, but the stat empties out and you can use your remaining nine points. Maybe you YOLO roll again and amazing success.

Now a truly sublime achievement would be to use a hybrid of these systems to create player choices and deliberately allow players to game the system and stack the deck in their favor.

Let unspent points influence the CURRENT ROLL and still allow players to undo the PREVIOUS ROLLS. This means that on your first roll, you have the most unused points. We'll do the necromancy head again. You roll 3 points on grade. This is your first roll, and you have a total of fifteen points. That means you're getting a bonus to this roll for 12 unused points. That and THAT ALONE is what is making a 3 point roll easier, but each subsequent 3 point roll is going to get harder as you spend those points. This is similar to how the (lying) risk sat works now, but in reverse. In stead of counting the number of points you COULD use, we're counting how many points you HAVEN'T used YET. This means that not only where you spend the points, but the order in which you spend them is really important. You want to do your biggest roll first on your most important stat, and your later rolls on less important stats as they'll have less of a bonus chance to succeed.

Combine that with the ability to undo rolls and things get interesting. You can undo that first 3 point roll, but the points are still spent and you just reset the stat to 0% you also have a statistically lower chance of an amazing success than the first roll BUT it still might be worth it if you have either a poorly made socksload more points to spend than places to put them OR if the first roll was just horrible (like, say, a fail) Now you can use OR passively benefit from (your choice) all of your points on every item and you've got a lot of interesting things you can do with them to mitigate RNG and chase bonuses. You can effectively "double yolo" low tier items as a high tier crafter, but you might not have to since your first yolo is going to have a substantial success chance. Or, alternately, you could have a nearly 100% success chance on experimenting on commons if you just leveraged your massive bonus for unspent points and reliable output amazing success after amazing success as long as you do the whole item in 3 pip rolls, because you're combining the naturally lower risk of the rolls with your naturally high bonus for all your unspent points AND you have enough points to keep that bonus pretty high even if you undo a roll or two. It might not be as flashy as a 30% output of perfect commons from yolo rolling and undoing everything but amazing success, BUT its a 99% success rate of REALLY GOOD ones by utilizing your giant unspent points bonus on safer rolls to make them pretty much a sure thing.

Edited by PopeUrban

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frRY2A0.jpg

Whilst carrying out this test I found it easier to achieve a Great Success or Amazing Success when experimenting 1 pip at a time, the more pips used at once reduced the chances of a higher level of success. You would think that by taking a higher risk the rewards when getting a Greater or Amazing success would be beneficial. The table shows this not to be the case as if you take the improvement result for Attack Power from a Great Success @ 1 pip experimentation 0.193 and *2=0.386 *3=0.579 *4=0.772 *5=0.965 *6=1.158 You can clearly see the results match those in the table for pips 2-6 . Given these results I fail to see the benefit of putting anymore than 1 pip in at a time when crafting as I can achieve between Great and Amazing Success when doing this, where as putting all 6 pips in I struggled to get to Great Success and never achieved Amazing success (30 bars were crafted in total and 13 experimentation points were put into each bar). So crafting @ 1 pip at a time I would achieve a bonus on average of 1.06 added to the base stat for the bar of 5= 6.06 Attack Power, If I put 6 pips in the best I could achieve if I hit a Great success would be a bonus of 1.159+base stat of 5 = 6.159 a difference of 0.099. Not a risk worth taking in my opinion especially when I would get a result of Moderate or Good success when experimenting with 6 pips which would give total results of 5.369 Moderate or 6.014 Good success compared to a more consistent average result of 6.06 per bar by experimenting 1 pip at a time.

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