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ACE_JackalBark

Pre-Alpha 5 Live! - Official Discussion Thread

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31 minutes ago, Nakawe said:

Why not buy a second account and tomb time?  Second account is 50 bucks, Vip is 15 bucks a month.at 4 months+ you way ahead of the game.  Vip is a joke...

Ya the benefit I had in mind was that people would be more inclined to sell the time form their gimp secondary trees to people who just joined the server giving them a chance to catch up. Doesn't help the VIP user lol.

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This was a really great Q&A. You were both really likable and the camera loved you. It was obvious you were hyped about the game and the patch, and it made me hyped too. 


 

 

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Henehen hoping that Todd made a mistake about the second train at 20 sec...... If true, kinda feels like RIP VIP

 

Edit:  Other than that great stream!

Edited by Mayhem_

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I honestly don't understand the opinion many seem to have that VIP's value has been reduced beyond the point where they would purchase it. Setting aside for the moment that the skill-training benefits will not be VIP's only perks, the training advantage is still valuable in it's 'reduced' form. 1.5x versus 2x is still a lot better than 1x...I just don't get it.

If any of you have have a ton of VIP would like to sell it, let me know - this seems like a great time to buy. :)

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4 hours ago, Anthrage said:

I honestly don't understand the opinion many seem to have that VIP's value has been reduced beyond the point where they would purchase it. Setting aside for the moment that the skill-training benefits will not be VIP's only perks, the training advantage is still valuable in it's 'reduced' form. 1.5x versus 2x is still a lot better than 1x...I just don't get it.

If any of you have have a ton of VIP would like to sell it, let me know - this seems like a great time to buy. :)

VIP is still definitely better than a single non-VIP account, sure. The problems start when you compare it to non-VIP alts.

Say you already have one non-VIP account. Your choices are $15/month to upgrade that account to VIP, and/or a one-time $50 to get a second non-VIP account. When both offered 2x training but the latter had the inconvenience of managing multiple accounts, and inability to mix/match the two different race/class/prof combos you were training, VIP was pretty attractive even if it would cost more in the long run. 1.5x makes VIP a more dubious proposition.

I'm not saying that I disagree with the decision or it's bad for the game. Pretty indifferent, honestly, I'll do whatever works out best. I'm amoral on this.

I will say that with 2x VIP training, I had settled on having a single VIP account. 1.5x is enough to push me to buy an alt and possibly skip VIP on both (contingent on what non-training benefits it might get - because the training just isn't enough anymore).

(edit: of course it's still pre-alpha and I'm not going to do anything hasty. For the same reason I didn't buy 5 years of VIP when it seemed like the better option, I'm also not going to rush to buy 5 alts now. But if the 1.5x sticks, that will put me on the "alt" side of the fence come release)

Edited by Avloren
clarity

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44 minutes ago, moneda said:

Yesterday: VIP is P2W!

Today: VIP is worthless!

:lol:

My thought exactly.

Can't wait to see all those clickbait youtuber videos "why crowfall p2w vip is garbage now" :lol:

Personally i'll wait until testing the new system.


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Thelanas Kar'Pal Membre fondateur de l'alliance Naerth en 2001 - Ex Shadowbane European Advisor Damnation/Carnage/Vindication/Corruption http://www.twitch.tv/gorwald/profile

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Interested to see if this is just a misunderstanding or what with the VIP thing. I mean I have like 3 years of VIP over here. I'm not sure I understand why they would nerf VIP since they seemed fine with the existing system.

Maybe he just meant that the actual skill point gain is staggered in 10 second intervals for technical reasons or something, IDK.

@jtoddcoleman I think we need some clarification here before people panic about a nerf that might not exist.


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5 hours ago, moneda said:

Yesterday: VIP is P2W!

Today: VIP is worthless!

:lol:

Ppl are never happy with VIP status: if its to good they scream p2w; if its not enough they scream garbage.. just Yesterday i found a click bait youtube video that said crowfall will be p2w cause of vip status.. artcraft dont be demoralizated by those videos! 

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6 hours ago, Avloren said:

VIP is still definitely better than a single non-VIP account, sure. The problems start when you compare it to non-VIP alts.

Say you already have one non-VIP account. Your choices are $15/month to upgrade that account to VIP, and/or a one-time $50 to get a second non-VIP account. When both offered 2x training but the latter had the inconvenience of managing multiple accounts, and inability to mix/match the two different race/class/prof combos you were training, VIP was pretty attractive even if it would cost more in the long run. 1.5x makes VIP a more dubious proposition.

I'm not saying that I disagree with the decision or it's bad for the game. Pretty indifferent, honestly, I'll do whatever works out best. I'm amoral on this.

I will say that with 2x VIP training, I had settled on having a single VIP account. 1.5x is enough to push me to buy an alt and possibly skip VIP on both (contingent on what non-training benefits it might get - because the training just isn't enough anymore).

(edit: of course it's still pre-alpha and I'm not going to do anything hasty. For the same reason I didn't buy 5 years of VIP when it seemed like the better option, I'm also not going to rush to buy 5 alts now. But if the 1.5x sticks, that will put me on the "alt" side of the fence come release)

My feeling on this position is that it is akin to that of someone who has watched a lot of people kiss, but has never actually kissed someone themselves. There is a big difference between how things look on paper, and how they are in actuality. There is a HUGE difference between 1.5 on 1 account and 2.x across 2 accounts - I noticed you removed this part from your post: "when you can effectively have the old 2x training back by spending a one-time $50 on a non-VIP alt.", and I suspect it is because you realized that 'effectively' is not effective at all in a practical sense. Having to run 2 crafting accounts out to a location as opposite to just 1 for example is a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage, and this is so now, without multiple continents, moongates, or an active crafter-killing population...

In my opinion, the idea that the move to 1.5x changes the equation drastically is just as absurd as the position that CF is a PTW game. The fine detail on the ground makes either of those extreme ideas nothing more than that, ideas, they have no relation to what happens in virtual meatspace.

My personal experience in this most recent testing phase, with the changes to crafting, this new map, has made it clear to me that VIP is more valuable than I thought it was previously, not less. Going to 1.5x doesn't change that opinion, for me. This doesn't mean it can't and shouldn't change it for someone else - my point is that said opinion is only justly held as a relative position, not an absolute one, something relative to what a particular player does, or needs, or wants, out of Crowfall. At the high end of that spectrum, VIP is very much, undeniably still valuable, even if that it's value is only in the 1.5x training benefit.

Which won't be the case of course. We actually have no idea what other perks VIP will include. We do know it won't only be in the form of 1.5x training. So yeah, I'm still planning to buy VIP come release, and I will be buying it on multiple accounts. I come from the era of MMORPGs where multiple accounts and a subscription was a common thing, so perhaps that skews my perception and preference...but I believe in VIP 100% when it comes to CF, and the most determining reason of all for me is this - I want to play this game, want it to be financially successful on an ongoing basis, which means I want to give ARTCraft money every month. What they give me in return on top of the game is just gravy.

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It is simple math nothing more...two non VIP accounts is cheaper after 4 months and gives you more passive training. If you are playing with a group it is objectively better to have a two non-VIP accounts than 1 VIP given what we heard yesterday. 

 

Now it doesn't mean VIP is pointless...but definitely not as appealing as two accounts if you are not looking to invest a lot financially into this game.

Edited by MJayed

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10 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

I want to play this game, want it to be financially successful on an ongoing basis

Then you should want ACE to push VIP subscriptions rather than alt accounts if you want them to be financially successful on an ongoing basis. 

I'm not saying that VIP is completely and utterly worthless - however, ACE will sell a lot less VIP accounts due to this change. Why would I pay $15/month for 50% more training when I can get 100% more training for a one time fee of $50 with an alt account?

You make a good point about having to run 2 accounts to a location rather than just 1. But what about the fact that 2 accounts doubles your storage? Doubles your imports and exports? And it trains twice as fast as your 2nd VIP skill. 

I appreciate your fierce loyalty to ACE and this game but that's not going to be the case for most gamers. They're going to do what makes the most sense and I think that is unfortunately once again going to be alt accounts over VIP in many circumstances. 

What I don't get is why this change was needed in the first place. @Tyrant was quoted on the hungercast saying he wanted VIP to be "stupid valuable" and a month later it gets gutted. 

 

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5 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Then you should want ACE to push VIP subscriptions rather than alt accounts if you want them to be financially successful on an ongoing basis. 

I'm not saying that VIP is completely and utterly worthless - however, ACE will sell a lot less VIP accounts due to this change. Why would I pay $15/month for 50% more training when I can get 100% more training for a one time fee of $50 with an alt account?

You make a good point about having to run 2 accounts to a location rather than just 1. But what about the fact that 2 accounts doubles your storage? Doubles your imports and exports? And it trains twice as fast as your 2nd VIP skill. 

I appreciate your fierce loyalty to ACE and this game but that's not going to be the case for most gamers. They're going to do what makes the most sense and I think that is unfortunately once again going to be alt accounts over VIP in many circumstances. 

What I don't get is why this change was needed in the first place. @Tyrant was quoted on the hungercast saying he wanted VIP to be "stupid valuable" and a month later it gets gutted. 

 

Because it makes the account you care about the most so much more effective than a non-VIP account.

Sure, many players will buy alt accounts for crafting and harvesting. Most of us already planned on it. But you're still going to use VIP tickets on your primary account. This change just means that those alternate accounts are less likely to carry VIP status after the first few months.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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21 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Then you should want ACE to push VIP subscriptions rather than alt accounts if you want them to be financially successful on an ongoing basis. 

I'm not saying that VIP is completely and utterly worthless - however, ACE will sell a lot less VIP accounts due to this change. Why would I pay $15/month for 50% more training when I can get 100% more training for a one time fee of $50 with an alt account?

You make a good point about having to run 2 accounts to a location rather than just 1. But what about the fact that 2 accounts doubles your storage? Doubles your imports and exports? And it trains twice as fast as your 2nd VIP skill. 

I appreciate your fierce loyalty to ACE and this game but that's not going to be the case for most gamers. They're going to do what makes the most sense and I think that is unfortunately once again going to be alt accounts over VIP in many circumstances. 

What I don't get is why this change was needed in the first place. @Tyrant was quoted on the hungercast saying he wanted VIP to be "stupid valuable" and a month later it gets gutted. 

 

Calling a change from 2x to 1.5x 'gutted' is Ziz-worthy hyperbole. That's hilarious.

Let's look at things in a more realistic and practical way. You called the fact that you only need to run 1 Vessel out to a location instead of 2 a 'good point'. In a release-environment, with larger maps populated by hostiles, where death and loss have real consequences, where travel time and time in general are resources as precious as legendary ore, this one element is a game-changer - on it's own. It doesn't matter if I have another full 1x of training on a 2nd character if I can't get him where he needs to be, alive and well. Not to mention the fact that in a release environment, a 2nd account means a 2nd Vessel - and all the farming, leveling and acquisition that entails - accessible from a 2nd crypt, which cannot be done concurrently. There are many reasons for and benefits to having alt accounts - I have 4 - but on the ground, in the moment-to-moment context, in a conflict region, in combat, the only account that really matters is the one you are playing at that time.

This isn't about loyalty - though as mentioned I certainly have that - it's about simple practicality and what will be effective. Two 1x accounts simply does not equal one 1.5 account, on anything but paper, and any suggestion this is the case is absolutely 100% wrong. Dead wrong.

Let me ask you this - two players, out in the world, encounter one another while traveling across the map. Each has a full inventory of materials, runes, you name it. Stuff their guild needs, resources that will impact the course of the campaign, one where only the winner gets to take spoils home, the loser gets nothing. Two players, one has 1x training, the other has 1.5x - everything else about them is equal - their skill as a player, their gear, everything. Two men enter this fight, one man leaves: which of the two do you want to be, the 1x or the 1.5x?

Edited by Anthrage

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28 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

Let's look at things in a more realistic and practical way. You called the fact that you only need to run 1 Vessel out to a location instead of 2 a 'good point'. In a release-environment, with larger maps populated by hostiles, where death and loss have real consequences, where travel time and time in general are resources as precious as legendary ore, this one element is a game-changer - on it's own. It doesn't matter if I have another full 1x of training on a 2nd character if I can't get him where he needs to be, alive and well. Not to mention the fact that in a release environment, a 2nd account means a 2nd Vessel - and all the farming, leveling and acquisition that entails - accessible from a 2nd crypt, which cannot be done concurrently. There are many reasons for and benefits to having alt accounts - I have 4 - but on the ground, in the moment-to-moment context, in a conflict region, in combat, the only account that really matters is the one who are playing at that time.

Let's say you have a combat account that has a harvesting skill as it's secondary training - common setup on a VIP account right now.

I'll have a combat vessel with combat disciplines and a separate harvesting vessel with harvesting disciplines. I'll have separate sets of combat armor and harvesting armor. 

I'll still have to recall back to the beach head to swap vessels anytime I want to do a different activity. I can't just swap disciplines on the fly because they're crafted or mob dropped upon launch. That means I STILL have to make that run twice and I STILL have to level separate vessels. 

What do you think is easier - doing this run once on two separate accounts or having to do it everytime I want to do that secondary activity? A lot easier to swap accounts than it is to swap vessels now isn't it?

Also remember that currently equipped armor cannot be looted but armor in inventory can. Now I have to make that run twice on the VIP account to get both sets of armor to the same fort/keep without it being subject to looting out of my inventory if I'm killed. Now that secondary set of armor is taking up valuable bank space on my VIP account that could otherwise hold resources that I've harvested. Either that or I have to leave armor in the beach head bank and also swap armor every time I swap vessels which adds more tedium to the process of doing different activities. 

This is already an issue with the current VIP system where the secondary skill trains at 100% - it'll become a HUGE GLARING issue when the secondary VIP skill is nerfed by 50%. 

28 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

Let me ask you this - two players, out in the world, encounter one another while traveling across the map. Each has a full inventory of materials, runes, you name it. Stuff their guild needs, resources that will impact the course of the campaign, one where only the winner gets to take spoils home, the loser gets nothing. Two players, one has 1x training, the other has 1.5x - everything else about them is equal - their skill as a player, their gear, everything. Two men enter this fight, one man leaves: which of the two do you want to be, the 1x or the 1.5x?

Same example as above - primary combat trained with VIP secondary harvesting training.

If I run into another combat character it's an even fight.

If I run into a harvester then I should win. However, that harvester has 50% more harvesting training so how much more harvesting has he done than me? Has he come out ahead overall for his guilds war effort despite taking a death and losing 1 round of materials?  Probably. 

Under the current system the VIP account would have equal combat AND harvesting skill and would be more efficient overall at multiple activities which is what makes VIP currently valuable. WIDTH in skill training options is the name of the game with VIP. 

Edited by blazzen

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4 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Let's say you have a combat account that has a harvesting skill as it's secondary training - common setup on a VIP account right now.

I'll have a combat vessel with combat disciplines and a separate harvesting vessel with harvesting disciplines. I'll have separate sets of combat armor and harvesting armor. 

I'll still have to recall back to the beach head to swap vessels anytime I want to do a different activity. I can't just swap disciplines on the fly because they're crafted or mob dropped upon launch. That means I STILL have to make that run twice and I STILL have to level separate vessels. 

What do you think is easier - doing this run once on two separate accounts or having to do it everytime I want to do that secondary activity? A lot easier to swap accounts than it is to swap vessels now isn't it?

Also remember that currently equipped armor cannot be looted but armor in inventory can. Now I have to make that run twice on the VIP account to get both sets of armor to the same fort/keep without it being subject to looting out of my inventory if I'm killed. Now that secondary set of armor is taking up valuable bank space on my VIP account that could otherwise hold resources that I've harvested.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

Same example as above - primary combat trained with VIP secondary harvesting training.

If I run into another combat character it's an even fight.

If I run into a harvester then I should win. However, that harvester has 50% more harvesting training so how much more harvesting has he done than me? Has he come out ahead overall for his guilds war effort despite taking a death and losing 1 round of materials?  Probably. 

Again, this is the difference between how things appear on paper and how they are in actual fact. For all the statements ACE has made about VIP not giving you a competitive, moment to moment advantage, the real, devil in the details truth is, that's not entirely the case. A fight between a 1.5x combat character and a 1x combat character is not an even fight at all - even without being able to double-dip in combat, if you look carefully at some of the things you CAN train, you will see it absolutely will give you an advantage in that scenario. I'm not going to point out exactly what those are, since apparently if someone like yourself isn't aware of them, then those of us who ARE aware have an advantage there as well, and I'm not giving that up any more than I'm giving up the .5x :)

As for your example of running two accounts versus running one account twice, you dismiss two things a bit too easily - you accept that death is possible, saying taking a death and losing 1 round of materials still puts him and his guild ahead. You have two scenarios here - a solo environment or encounter or a group one. In a solo encounter, the combat-trained account wins, especially if he is VIP. In a group environment, players have roles - and once a campaign has moved to the full-on conflict stage, those roles are less likely to be fluid. If you're a combat account, you're not going to be switching to your harvester, you'll be protecting your guild's harvesters from your combat account. Something being better in theory when it doesn't count is not the same as something being better when it does count - in a combat-context, you're going to want your 1.5x combat account; running a 2nd one out, worrying about where I'm going to store a 2nd set of armor...that's not even going to be a factor.

One other thing, you've mentioned storage capacity a few times - in the context of bank space it's largely meaningless, as you have to BE at your bank to use that space, and have two accounts just doubles the requirements on you in that regard. In the context of inventory space, having .5x extra training means you can actually train into additional space that your other account does not have, as there are nodes for this. Hell, there may even be nodes for bank space as well. It is literally a case of 'anything you can do, I can do better' when you have more training, in an account versus account scenario. For most of the interactions where risk is significant enough for these differences to matter, it will be an account versus account scenario.

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