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ACE_JackalBark

Pre-Alpha 5 Live! - Official Discussion Thread

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9 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

Again, this is the difference between how things appear on paper and how they are in actual fact. For all the statements ACE has made about VIP not giving you a competitive, moment to moment advantage, the real, devil in the details truth is, that's not entirely the case. A fight between a 1.5x combat character and a 1x combat character is not an even fight at all - even without being able to double-dip in combat, if you look carefully at some of the things you CAN train, you will see it absolutely will give you an advantage in that scenario. I'm not going to point out exactly what those are, since apparently if someone like yourself isn't aware of them, then those of us who ARE aware have an advantage there as well, and I'm not giving that up any more than I'm giving up the .5x :)

I'm aware of the vertical double dipping in both race and class (training "man" and "half blood" at the same time for example). I lobbied for the removal of it a while ago with the devs since it is selling power. 


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3 minutes ago, blazzen said:

I'm aware of the vertical double dipping in both race and class (training "man" and "half blood" at the same time for example). I lobbied for the removal of it a while ago with the devs since it is selling power. 

Not talking about Race and Class, talking about the first Tree - Combat, Crafting and Exploration. Not being able to train 2 things in Combat requires you to train something in either Crafting or Exploration, and some of those things make you more effective in any given encounter. If my guy has that stuff trained and yours doesn't, you are at a disadvantage.

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The rumored change to VIP (secondary skill stream granted by VIP training at half the speed of the main stream) is supposed to make us more interdependent.  For some reason, ACE feels that we're not already too interdependent.

The ridiculously slow training rate already in place means that alts are going to be a thing.  If I want to harvest wood and ore in the first year of the game, I need separate accounts to do so.  Same for gravedigging, quarrying, skinning, farming, and all the crafting roles.  Eventually, an account will finish one path and start down another.  VIP (be it at 1.5x or 2x) will do so faster than a non-VIP account, but it will still take a very long time.   The additional storage, imports, exports, and the sheer convenience of not having to run to the beachhead crypt to switch vessels means that alt accounts are all but necessary for many of us.

The question is - is VIP worth having on top of the alt accounts?  With the vertical double dipping (being able to train fighter and chivalry at the same time), you get a faster path through the race and class trees.  You will end up in the same place as a non-VIP account, but for over a year, the VIP account has a stats and training advantage.  That means that we need VIP on our combat accounts.  It's certainly beneficial for crafting accounts (faster access to the stat gains in the race tree) but those are less important given the stat gains from levelling a vessel and using a higher quality vessel - you can max out the important stats for your crafter without some of the racial training.  Solo harvesters will want the double dip benefits, too - guarded specialist harvester accounts may be fine without.

As long as double dipping the race and class trees (fighter and chiv, man and human, etc) is allowed, VIP is worthwhile.  Remove that, and that equation changes - if all you get is 30 days skill bank time instead of 3, and a greater choice of classes and races, the vast majority of accounts won't bother with the VIP subscription unless ACE adds other valuable incentives (skipping queues, etc).

For me, the question isn't "which is better" (the answer is clearly alt accounts) - the question is "how many of my alt accounts need VIP?".   I have 8 accounts and 120 months of VIP to spread between them.  I'm not alone in this - I know dozens of players with at least that many accounts.  With the current system, I will use a lot of alts at the start of the game, and as my characters advance enough to train extra skills, I will stop playing some of the alt accounts, using them to create tomes to apply skills faster to the remaining accounts.  However, I will always have at least one combat main and one harvesting account, and likely one crafting account, and all three of those will have VIP for as long as I play the game.

Edited by Durenthal

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The change to VIP won't cause me to do a chargeback since they never technically promised what VIP would involve.  Just a list of pack features and the value associated with them, and the knowledge of what VIP was at the time.  It does however display potential shady practices and after some of the more recent pay 2 win cash grab games it puts me on the defensive.  At this point they will not be getting another dollar until the perks I already paid for are clearly laid out and the cash model is more firm.  Also now when people ask if I would recommend it I will say I can't.

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22 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

The question is - is VIP worth having on top of the alt accounts?  With the vertical double dipping (being able to train fighter and chivalry at the same time), you get a faster path through the race and class trees.  You will end up in the same place as a non-VIP account, but for over a year, the VIP account has a stats and training advantage.  That means that we need VIP on our combat accounts.  It's certainly beneficial for crafting accounts (faster access to the stat gains in the race tree) but those are less important given the stat gains from levelling a vessel and using a higher quality vessel - you can max out the important stats for your crafter without some of the racial training.  Solo harvesters will want the double dip benefits, too - guarded specialist harvester accounts may be fine without.

As long as double dipping the race and class trees (fighter and chiv, man and human, etc) is allowed, VIP is worthwhile.  Remove that, and that equation changes - if all you get is 30 days skill bank time instead of 3, and a greater choice of classes and races, the vast majority of accounts won't bother with the VIP subscription unless ACE adds other valuable incentives (skipping queues, etc).

Maybe I'm looking at this differently than some of you, but even without double-dipping, I still want that 2nd skill training, even if it's slower. Having things like increased food drop and cooking options, campfire healing bonus, enhanced sprint, more movement speed debuff mitigation, pathfinding or track...I just don't understand how anyone can consider these things not worth that second training slot. I don't get it. Hell, if that list were reduced to just tracking, I would still want that 2nd node.

Is it just me who values that stuff on a combat toon? It can't be just me, can it?

Edited by Anthrage

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11 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

The rumored change to VIP (secondary skill stream granted by VIP training at half the speed of the main stream) is supposed to make us more interdependent.  For some reason, ACE feels that we're not already too interdependent.

We're not. Inter-dependency is good.

11 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

The ridiculously slow training rate already in place means that alts are going to be a thing.  If I want to harvest wood and ore in the first year of the game, I need separate accounts to do so.  Same for gravedigging, quarrying, skinning, farming, and all the crafting roles.

You aren't meant to do everything. The fact that you feel that you need to is your issue, not Crowfall's. Many people are fine with focusing on one or two things.

11 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

The question is - is VIP worth having on top of the alt accounts?  With the vertical double dipping (being able to train fighter and chivalry at the same time), you get a faster path through the race and class trees.  You will end up in the same place as a non-VIP account, but for over a year, the VIP account has a stats and training advantage.  That means that we need VIP on our combat accounts.  It's certainly beneficial for crafting accounts (faster access to the stat gains in the race tree) but those are less important given the stat gains from levelling a vessel and using a higher quality vessel - you can max out the important stats for your crafter without some of the racial training.  Solo harvesters will want the double dip benefits, too - guarded specialist harvester accounts may be fine without.

They've already said they will fix the double dipping. 

11 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

As long as double dipping the race and class trees (fighter and chiv, man and human, etc) is allowed, VIP is worthwhile.  Remove that, and that equation changes - if all you get is 30 days skill bank time instead of 3, and a greater choice of classes and races, the vast majority of accounts won't bother with the VIP subscription unless ACE adds other valuable incentives (skipping queues, etc).

I disagree. Plenty of people will pay for VIP. Also, ACE themselves have said they only expect about 20% of people to have VIP. It's not meant to be something every single person has.

11 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

For me, the question isn't "which is better" (the answer is clearly alt accounts)

Disagree. Give me VIP over alt accounts any day. The hassle of having to log in and out repeatedly, run multiple characters across the map, etc is far worse.

11 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

- the question is "how many of my alt accounts need VIP?".   I have 8 accounts and 120 months of VIP to spread between them.  I'm not alone in this - I know dozens of players with at least that many accounts.

https://imgur.com/gallery/R1fdEt3

You are the exception, not the rule. Most people won't have 2 accounts, let alone 8.

11 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

  With the current system, I will use a lot of alts at the start of the game, and as my characters advance enough to train extra skills, I will stop playing some of the alt accounts, using them to create tomes to apply skills faster to the remaining accounts.  However, I will always have at least one combat main and one harvesting account, and likely one crafting account, and all three of those will have VIP for as long as I play the game.

There will be a cap to your training. If you have VIP on your main accounts you won't be able to funnel training to them from your alts because they'll be at the cap. Those accounts just become pretty much worthless worthless.

Again, your need to do everything (which, btw, you won't be as effective as a jack of all trades, if for no other reason than having to split your time up) is not a problem with the game. You are not meant to do every single thing. You are meant to specialize. You can try to do everything with multiple accounts, but you're going to have to split your time a ton, especially if you have separate accounts for things like combat and gathering.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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3 minutes ago, OuijiSiN said:

The change to VIP won't cause me to do a chargeback since they never technically promised what VIP would involve.  Just a list of pack features and the value associated with them, and the knowledge of what VIP was at the time.  It does however display potential shady practices and after some of the more recent pay 2 win cash grab games it puts me on the defensive.  At this point they will not be getting another dollar until the perks I already paid for are clearly laid out and the cash model is more firm.  Also now when people ask if I would recommend it I will say I can't.

They never said their first pass on VIP training benefits was final. There is nothing shady about the iterative process they are using to find the right balance during pre-alpha testing.

They tried out granting doubled Profession, Race, and Class training and decided it went too far in the direction of lowering interdependence. These sorts of changes should be expected during development.

Edited by Jah

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1 minute ago, Anthrage said:

Maybe I'm looking at this differently than some of you, but even without double-dipping, I still want that 2nd skill training, even if it's slower. Having things like increased food drop and cooking options, campfire healing bonus, enhanced sprint, more movement speed debuff mitigation or track...I just don't understand how anyone can consider these things not worth that second training slot. I don't get it. Hell, if that list were reduced to just tracking, I would still want that 2nd node.

Is it just me who values that stuff on a combat toon? It can't be just me, can it?

No, I will absolutely have VIP on my combat account, as I said in the message you quoted.  Combat and exploration go hand in hand. The question is how valuable is VIP to my other accounts.   For me it's never been an either-or.  The skill system absolutely forces me into multiple accounts.  The question is simply how many of my alts will be VIP, and for how long.

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Just now, Durenthal said:

No, I will absolutely have VIP on my combat account, as I said in the message you quoted.  Combat and exploration go hand in hand. The question is how valuable is VIP to my other accounts.   For me it's never been an either-or.  The skill system absolutely forces me into multiple accounts.  The question is simply how many of my alts will be VIP, and for how long.

I get that - I am in exactly the same position as you. I never intended for all of my accounts to retain their VIP forever, for me, this .5 change has no bearing on that whatsoever though. Every one of my combat accounts will be VIP, as will every one of my crafting accounts. My harvesters will be VIP until a certain level of combat capability is reached, and then I will likely drop it. My listing of the things from Exploration was more directed at those who question the value of that second training slot at all.

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I think this is a move in the right direction. ATM double dipping is a thing. I don't want it to be a thing but it is. You can not min/max a character with out VIP. This change will make the gap in power between VIP and non VIP smaller. This is a win-win for both sides, even if its not quite where we'd like it to be yet.

Edited by Yoink

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46 minutes ago, Jah said:

They tried out granting doubled Profession, Race, and Class training and decided it went too far in the direction of lowering interdependence. 

I don't see these new changes having any effect on lowering interdependence, only adding more time.  The end result is inevitably the same.  1 character will still be able to do everything....  The only thing they have done is making it take more years to max training per account.

If the want to limit interdependence they need to pigeonhole us into choices.

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Just now, Nakawe said:

I don't see these new changes having any effect on lowering interdependence, only adding more time.  The end result is inevitably the same.  1 character will still be able to do everything....  The only thing they have done is making it take more years to max training per account.

If the want to limit interdependence they need to pigeonhole us into choices.

I don't think you can ignore the time it takes to train things. While it may be true that you could eventually train everything, the time it will take to do so is very relevant in practice.


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5 minutes ago, Jah said:

I don't think you can ignore the time it takes to train things. While it may be true that you could eventually train everything, the time it will take to do so is very relevant in practice.

I agree, why training, you will have to be dependent on others or have tons of accounts.  BUT, if their main goal was to make us truly dependent, they would limit us based on choices.  

One account can still do everything in the end, they just moved the goal post another 50 yards further away.

Edited by Nakawe

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4 minutes ago, MJayed said:

Is double dipping in trees intended? I was under the impression it wasn't.

Yes, but, based on current information the double dip will be at a 50% rate now if you have VIP....Otherwise don't think it can be done....but, I am confused now too.

Edited by Nakawe

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28 minutes ago, MJayed said:

Is double dipping in trees intended? I was under the impression it wasn't.

I was under that impression as well. So far I haven't seen ACE acknowledge that VIP lets people simultaneously train skills that "stack" and increase power in the Race and Class trees.

The ability to train Racial Basics + Man at the same time, and then Man + Human at the same time, affects balance. This change to VIP reduces that problem but it doesn't remove it.


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46 minutes ago, Jah said:

I was under that impression as well. So far I haven't seen ACE acknowledge that VIP lets people simultaneously train skills that "stack" and increase power in the Race and Class trees.

The ability to train Racial Basics + Man at the same time, and then Man + Human at the same time, affects balance. This change to VIP reduces that problem but it doesn't remove it.

 


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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As far as "double dipping" is concerned (as in training a line and its child, like Fighter and Chivalry) I'm okay with it. After finishing 50% of one of the basic trees, with VIP you're currently presented with the option of breaking off into two distinct areas or going into one and continuing on with that basic tree. That choice is continuously granted as you move down trees: stick with this one avenue or diversify. I like that choice.


Hi, I'm moneda.

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8 minutes ago, Svenn said:

 

That acknowledges double-dipping in Combat. It doesn't acknowledge the same issue for Race and Class trees.

 


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