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Zorph

VIP - Priority access to all game servers

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I am hoping that Crowfall will have a plan so that servers expand as needed.

I am guessing there will be tons of people trading VIP subscriptions to people who play a ton but don't want to pay for subscriptions.

I know in my guild there are many that are concerned that they won't be able to get into the game.    Is this even required statement for VIP?  Are we expecting access issues?

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26 minutes ago, Zorph said:

I am hoping that Crowfall will have a plan so that servers expand as needed.

I am guessing there will be tons of people trading VIP subscriptions to people who play a ton but don't want to pay for subscriptions.

I know in my guild there are many that are concerned that they won't be able to get into the game.    Is this even required statement for VIP?  Are we expecting access issues?

Its hard to look at this issue now, not a whole lot of people in game. 

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When you say "server" do yo mean campaign?  Don't see a reason they would have multiple servers, all in one, like in EVE.   They just need to distribute the campaign's across servers, but from a user view, its one server.

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VIP has priority access

So how the guild is taking that is they may have to wait to log into the game.  BnS had people wait up to 6 hours to get into the game if they didn't have a sub/VIP.

If you pay for a game this is not acceptable (stuff happens obviously), but the plan needs to be that things are covered now.  Many large MMO's don't have issues when they open their servers so I don't see why Crowfall will have issues.

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They may have to wait if they choose the most popular campaign. That doesn’t mean they won’t be able to play the game, though.


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Why would they have to wait?  If you buy the game and it isn't free to play I see that as an issue for many.

Now if the server has a cap of 2000 people then I understand they can't play that campaign. But they should be able to get in and play other campaigns.

Edited by Zorph

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26 minutes ago, Zorph said:

Now if the server has a cap of 2000 people then I understand they can't play that campaign. But they should be able to get in and play other campaigns.

Exactly.

Nothing about that VIP perk says you won't be able to get in and play other campaigns.

If you want to crowd into a full campaign, the perk may come in handy. You won't need it to play a different campaign.

Edited by Jah

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  • Priority access to all game servers in most games just means you get to cut in line to get into the server.  
  • Now how many here are taking this is that you get access to new campaigns.  But people just glancing at the game (well people from my guild) are taking it as they will have to wait to even play.

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3 minutes ago, Zorph said:
  • But people just glancing at the game (well people from my guild) are taking it as they will have to wait to even play.

They are mistaken.


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Just now, Jah said:

They are mistaken.

I agree, but IMHO it is important for marketing to be clear.

Most other MMOs that have priority access get in front of non-vip to log into the server.  

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I don't really get why MMORPGs have such low limits on player population still, considering what has been achieved in the last 8 years.  MigratoryData scaled a single 1U rack commodity server to handle 12 million concurrent connections back in 2013 (https://mrotaru.wordpress.com/2013/10/10/scaling-to-12-million-concurrent-connections-how-migratorydata-did-it/).  That says nothing about processing each connection, which of course could get very expensive.  But most MMO messages are subsystem isolated -- you can have multiple IP addresses  (each handling 65535 ports) on up front message routing servers, and routing those messages to the actual heavy lifting servers on the backend: chat server, inventory server, position/movement server, skill/attribute server, battle server, harvest server, etc.  Using in-memory representations of data (redis rather than postgres, for example, but much better to stay "in process") can significantly improve throughput and message latency on those back-end servers.  I guess what I'm saying is... there is no fundemental "computers are too slow" problem here, so any problem must be one of poor implementation.  And that yes, we should expect much better than the 150-300 range caps we see in testing.

 

I think VIP should give priority access.  Also non-VIP should have timebank overflow after 24 hours.  These together give VIP enough value that people will actually buy it.

 

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1 hour ago, Brindylln said:

I don't really get why MMORPGs have such low limits on player population still, considering what has been achieved in the last 8 years.  MigratoryData scaled a single 1U rack commodity server to handle 12 million concurrent connections back in 2013 (https://mrotaru.wordpress.com/2013/10/10/scaling-to-12-million-concurrent-connections-how-migratorydata-did-it/).  That says nothing about processing each connection, which of course could get very expensive.  But most MMO messages are subsystem isolated -- you can have multiple IP addresses  (each handling 65535 ports) on up front message routing servers, and routing those messages to the actual heavy lifting servers on the backend: chat server, inventory server, position/movement server, skill/attribute server, battle server, harvest server, etc.  Using in-memory representations of data (redis rather than postgres, for example, but much better to stay "in process") can significantly improve throughput and message latency on those back-end servers.  I guess what I'm saying is... there is no fundemental "computers are too slow" problem here, so any problem must be one of poor implementation.  And that yes, we should expect much better than the 150-300 range caps we see in testing.

 

I think VIP should give priority access.  Also non-VIP should have timebank overflow after 24 hours.  These together give VIP enough value that people will actually buy it.

 

2 words... "Action Combat".     Tab target lets the server client fudge hits and quickly communicate damage...   Action combat requires "hit" information to pass back and forth before damage can be applied...   this is huge to the number of concurrent communications that must occur seamlessly to players between server and client.


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one reason the soft launch will happen is to curb the 100000 million people trying to connect at 9am on release.  The population until advertised release happens will be relatively low. the cut in line wont really matter until the release of the game.

 

it might be possible for 20+ CW to be on 1 server. so i'm not seeing the advantage of priority access.


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6 minutes ago, jetah said:

it might be possible for 20+ CW to be on 1 server. so i'm not seeing the advantage of priority access.

If you are happy to log in to whichever campaign has room, priority access wouldn't matter much. If you desperately want to log in to a specific campaign that happens to be 'too popular' it could be advantageous to have priority access.


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9 hours ago, Frykka said:

2 words... "Action Combat".     Tab target lets the server client fudge hits and quickly communicate damage...   Action combat requires "hit" information to pass back and forth before damage can be applied...   this is huge to the number of concurrent communications that must occur seamlessly to players between server and client.

Thanks for that explanation. Any operation requiring multiple network trips is clearly going to be delayed, but this delay is about waiting for the packets to arrive, not about any processing node being overloaded.  It affects latency, not throughput.  So it should not affect how many players a server could handle.

Also, I don't see where the extra communication is necessary.  Whether tab targeting or action combat, the sequence is generally (1) attacker attacks (2) message goes to server (3) server computes what actually happened, considering the frame of reference of the attacker as well as its own frame of reference, carefully, for latency compensation reasons, and (4) server tells everyone in the region about it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think what ACE is doing is utterly fantastic, and overwhelming to boot. So when I talk about poor implementation, I'm really talking about industry wide issues, performance expectations that haven't improved in 10 years, and engine issues.  We've come through a good 15+ years of people saying "dont optimize until the end" when in fact you must optimize while things are still on the drawing board.  Since 1990 people have been saying "dont worry about performance computers will get faster due to Moore's law" and people listened, and then they wrote layers on layers on layers each with overhead, and loops within loops, and realized too late that order-n-squared issues don't speed up as fast as they had hoped.  I'm excited about technology, and I love the nuts and bolts, and it saddens me when I know things can scream (e.g. git) and yet people seem satisfied with tools that crawl (e.g. cvs).

 

edit:

Oh wait, I get it.  300 people within sight of each other moving 10 times per second send 3000 messages inbound. Every movement has to go outbound to everybody else, so that's 300^2 * 10, or 900,000 messages/second.  N-squared problem.  Too bad multicast is so problematic.

...and now I'm talking to myself.

Edited by Brindylln
oh wait, i get it

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3 hours ago, Jah said:

If you are happy to log in to whichever campaign has room, priority access wouldn't matter much. If you desperately want to log in to a specific campaign that happens to be 'too popular' it could be advantageous to have priority access.

campaigns will have a total limit though. I can't see 1500-3k people trying to log into the same campaign every day at the same time to create a queue.


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8 minutes ago, jetah said:

campaigns will have a total limit though. I can't see 1500-3k people trying to log into the same campaign every day at the same time to create a queue.

It wouldn't need to be an everyday occurrence to matter. Day 1 of a campaign comes to mind. Or an important siege that draws a lot of attention because it could determine the outcome of a campaign.


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9 hours ago, jetah said:

campaigns will have a total limit though. I can't see 1500-3k people trying to log into the same campaign every day at the same time to create a queue.

Keep in mind that this would be the online and offline population.

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14 hours ago, Brindylln said:

Oh wait, I get it.  300 people within sight of each other moving 10 times per second send 3000 messages inbound. Every movement has to go outbound to everybody else, so that's 300^2 * 10, or 900,000 messages/second.  N-squared problem.  Too bad multicast is so problematic.

...and now I'm talking to myself.

I was going to lay out this pseudomath for ya and then you got it.  The same advantages in network and processor speeds that let us move forward from "turn based with a client that looks 3d" to "actually 3d near-realtime gameplay" are the ones that make the exponential number of packets to track it in large multiplayer settings exponentially more expensive.

You end up with pretty much a zero sum game there. EITHER you can use faster network speeds and better back end tech to support more players OR you can use it to have more responsive and higher fidelity combat and movement. When you're making any multiplayer game you've basically got to find a point on that slider for the user's connection and your server you're comfortable with and design your game around it.

Edited by PopeUrban

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