Adrienne

How to drive players off

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I came in pretty excited about Crowfall. I'm less enthused now. My lack of enthusiasm stems from having been killed several times in the last several days while in the middle of crafting. One player waltzed into the crafting area and killed me while all of the guards stood around and watched. I get that that is a bug. I get that the game is set up to drive team play, but at this early stage where I rarely see more than 2 or 3 other players on at a time, not having a safe place to craft is a real impediment to getting into this game. I want to craft. I want to become good at it. But right now, I am unable to harvest the materials, assemble the components and produce a product without, seemingly, being killed in the process. I've lost hundreds of hides, hundreds of ore, hundreds of dust, and numerous other items because there is no safe way to craft. You can't really craft in the EK because quickly the spirit bank runs out of transfers. You have no visibility of what is going on around you, so you are reliant on the guards, who generally fail to react to an intruder unless directly attacked. This is not meant to be whining, but it is meant to point out that at this early stage, if you want to give folks the incentive to craft, you need to allow it to happen in a safe space-like a beachhead. Alternatively, make the guards do their jobs, or make it necessary for at least three people to be involved in taking over a fort, not just one. Or limit the number of items a killer can loot, or allow items to be entered into crafting window directly from the bank instead of having to be in inventory. There are probably 20 ways to improve this situation so that, until player numbers and guild presence can provide security for crafters, they don't get continually ganked. After wasting the last 4 days attempting to make a leather breastplate, I doubt I'll be back for a while. Too much of a grind, for too high a risk.

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Use your ears. Every method to enter a fort makes a significant amount of noise using very distinct sound effects. You can hear the footsteps of anyone approaching your fort, and you can hear the distinct effects of people breaking walls or using teleport abilities to bypass them.

Don't carry more stuff in your inventory than you need for your current crafting stage.

Remember that you can close the crafting table window once you've started a crafting timer. The timer will continue to run without you staring at it.

Consider using a race or class with teleport or stealth abilities to quickly hide when you hear enemies approaching.

I have had zero problems staying alive while crafting using these methods, even with the current guard bugs.

Even when functional, the guards aren't intended to defend you. They're intended to help deal a bit of extra DPS to help you defend yourself.

The current situation is not working as intended, but keep in mind that the duelist class exists specifically to do this exact thing even when all of these bugs are fixed. You aren't ever going to be completely safe in a fort. There is a class specifically designed to sneak in to forts and keeps to kill people that aren't paying attention.

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Honestly......... 

I have been active since 3.0 or so....... pretty good about staying positive - you won't find any negative trolling in my history.  I still have very high hopes for the game....... but I have a hard time seeing CF as Crowfall today vs a "Cluster Fudge" 

Wow..... that felt good to finally get off my chest :)  

With that said - Devs get back to work - you got a lot of work to do!

Semper Fi 

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3 hours ago, Adrienne said:

I came in pretty excited about Crowfall. I'm less enthused now. My lack of enthusiasm stems from having been killed several times in the last several days while in the middle of crafting. One player waltzed into the crafting area and killed me while all of the guards stood around and watched. I get that that is a bug. I get that the game is set up to drive team play, but at this early stage where I rarely see more than 2 or 3 other players on at a time, not having a safe place to craft is a real impediment to getting into this game. I want to craft. I want to become good at it. But right now, I am unable to harvest the materials, assemble the components and produce a product without, seemingly, being killed in the process. I've lost hundreds of hides, hundreds of ore, hundreds of dust, and numerous other items because there is no safe way to craft. You can't really craft in the EK because quickly the spirit bank runs out of transfers. You have no visibility of what is going on around you, so you are reliant on the guards, who generally fail to react to an intruder unless directly attacked. This is not meant to be whining, but it is meant to point out that at this early stage, if you want to give folks the incentive to craft, you need to allow it to happen in a safe space-like a beachhead. Alternatively, make the guards do their jobs, or make it necessary for at least three people to be involved in taking over a fort, not just one. Or limit the number of items a killer can loot, or allow items to be entered into crafting window directly from the bank instead of having to be in inventory. There are probably 20 ways to improve this situation so that, until player numbers and guild presence can provide security for crafters, they don't get continually ganked. After wasting the last 4 days attempting to make a leather breastplate, I doubt I'll be back for a while. Too much of a grind, for too high a risk.

You must have a group of friends in Crowfall to do these tasks in-world...   only export 100 stacks of materials...   If you are alone be prepared to fight or stealth.  Cannot help other than good advice and being smart about risks.   Yes, come back later when the guards are working again and join up with others to play, this is NOT and never will be a solo friendly place.

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I appreciate the feedback, and can fault none of it. I'd like to craft in my EK, but quickly ran into trouble with the import/export limits. Maybe I just wasn't being smart about it. I didn't realize that you could close the crafting window once you started the timer. That will help. I certainly appreciate the need to not keep more in inventory than you can afford to lose-this last time I had just gathered all the components out of the bank for the final set of combines. Bad timing on my part. I've almost always tried to be a solo, self-sufficient player and in most games, I have done reasonably well, but I recognize that the way this game is designed will always be a challenge in that respect.

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8 minutes ago, Adrienne said:

I appreciate the feedback, and can fault none of it. I'd like to craft in my EK, but quickly ran into trouble with the import/export limits. Maybe I just wasn't being smart about it. I didn't realize that you could close the crafting window once you started the timer. That will help. I certainly appreciate the need to not keep more in inventory than you can afford to lose-this last time I had just gathered all the components out of the bank for the final set of combines. Bad timing on my part. I've almost always tried to be a solo, self-sufficient player and in most games, I have done reasonably well, but I recognize that the way this game is designed will always be a challenge in that respect.

Yep. Unless you plan on having multiple accounts, get some friends, join some groups, be social!

At least you learned this lesson in the pre-release stages so you didn't lose much.

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I think OP has some valid concerns though.

If the reasoning behind not having crafting stations at the beachhead is to get people out into the world having them use their EK for crafting is even more removed. They aren't even in the campaign.

To paraphrase the philosopher Taylor Swift and her cultural appropriation, crafters gonna craft (craft craft craft craft). Players will always find ways to avoid danger so they can craft, like using EKs. 

I hear you all with the party up advice, 'this game isn't for solo players' etc but the status of people being online is fluid and even if you are trying to stay partied at all times many factors can hinder that.

Like you've been in a party six hours then all your friends log off and go to bed and you feel like you have another hour in you but its late and you really can't be bothered tracking down another party because frankly you are an introvert at the best of times and you've used up your social energy for the day.  Totally reasonable to be a 'solo player' at that point and a whole range of others.

I agree a solo player won't and shouldn't be able to achieve the same things as a group.  A solo player shouldn't be able to take a defended fort. A solo player shouldn't be able to craft advanced if the team doesn't own a fort.

Maybe beachheads could have some stations that allow intermediate. Partly to stop people going back to their EK. Aren't there more social possibilities if everyone is in the campaign? Just enough stations that allow some limited gearing options and for people to have something to do if that's how they'd like to spend their time. Still have the majority of stations and advanced crafting out in the forts as partying incentives. Sorry this got a bit tldr.

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i could see some basic stations at the beachhead but people are needed in the cw.

 

i would like to see some focused testing nights.

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9 hours ago, Adrienne said:

I came in pretty excited about Crowfall. I'm less enthused now. My lack of enthusiasm stems from having been killed several times in the last several days while in the middle of crafting. One player waltzed into the crafting area and killed me while all of the guards stood around and watched. I get that that is a bug. I get that the game is set up to drive team play, but at this early stage where I rarely see more than 2 or 3 other players on at a time, not having a safe place to craft is a real impediment to getting into this game. I want to craft. I want to become good at it. But right now, I am unable to harvest the materials, assemble the components and produce a product without, seemingly, being killed in the process. I've lost hundreds of hides, hundreds of ore, hundreds of dust, and numerous other items because there is no safe way to craft. You can't really craft in the EK because quickly the spirit bank runs out of transfers. You have no visibility of what is going on around you, so you are reliant on the guards, who generally fail to react to an intruder unless directly attacked. This is not meant to be whining, but it is meant to point out that at this early stage, if you want to give folks the incentive to craft, you need to allow it to happen in a safe space-like a beachhead. Alternatively, make the guards do their jobs, or make it necessary for at least three people to be involved in taking over a fort, not just one. Or limit the number of items a killer can loot, or allow items to be entered into crafting window directly from the bank instead of having to be in inventory. There are probably 20 ways to improve this situation so that, until player numbers and guild presence can provide security for crafters, they don't get continually ganked. After wasting the last 4 days attempting to make a leather breastplate, I doubt I'll be back for a while. Too much of a grind, for too high a risk.

Welcome.

This topic came up in the past, it comes up from time to time, and it will come up in the future. As long as it is a PvP game with looting, characters will get killed and looted and people will be annoyed. And it nearly doesn't matter what the game does to prevent it - it doesn't change the principle. 

For example: Only about a year ago there were no EK's, there were no beachhead, no guards, no faction specific spawn points. And of course people got killed and they got looted. And they said: crap game, don't like. And now we have all this stuff, but the feedbacks are still the same. 

The important thing to know, and ACE has stated this several times now, is that it would be no problem to build a dedicated frame for a positiv newplayer experience. The only thing is: It would cost time and money and delay the release of the game. Especially since they would have to redo this newplayer frame for every single change in the game. And in pre-alpha things and code changes all the time.

What they do is to bring in stuff that makes life easier for players ASAP, but only if the underlying system is ready to be tested (like currently the guards). And we then have the opportunity and put in our two cents to make the game better. 

Crowfall is basically a teamplay game. It is possible to play it solo - but it is much harder. This won't change a lot. If you are alone, you are in danger

Especially during pre-alpha, and surely still during alpha, they game won't feel like being done and there will be now perfect frame for newplayer experiences. This time is for gamers with some tester mindset. Not for the common player.

 

tl:dr

Crowfall is not done, things are missing, there are bugs, there is no focus on newplayer experience - playing it right now requires a certain tester mindset. And this won't change soon. Everbody who joins Crowfall now has to understand that - or will get a warm welcome from Lord Frustration.

 

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The reminder from Kraahk that this is a testing environment is valid, but the people here who want to be a part of the testing also want to have some sort of gaming experience in so doing. Frustrating them will surely cause some to not return if it is just too hard to make even basic progress. Let’s face it, crafting is clearly essential to this game, and those willing to spend the time and effort to do it well will have made an dedicated commitment to the game succeeding.  No question about the required social aspects to the game; I think they are equally essential to the game’s overall success. And all MMORPGs have to deal with this to some extent by providing a path for solo players to enjoy the game while remaining true to the basic thrust of the game to create a social environment where teamwork creates success.

But Digby is correct as well, and articulated some of my feelings. I’d much rather stay in the CW to craft than go through the process of moving all crafting supplies via spirit bank, while dealing with its limitations, to my EK. Currently, the spirit bank is intended for limited use. Maybe that should be revisited if there is no safe space to craft in the CW. At least that would allow players to bank as they harvest, and if you could enter components directly into the crafting windows from the spirit bank, that too would help protect against interruption during crafting. Putting intermediate crafting stations in the beachhead, or allowing players to create them there, would at least allow lower level players to craft a set of armor and weapons. You could even require players to build their own tables which would disappear on departure from the CW. It would still require players to run back out to their harvest sites from the extremes of the maps every time they gather, so the time spent returning to the beachhead is not trivial.

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24 minutes ago, Adrienne said:

The reminder from Kraahk that this is a testing environment is valid,

<-- this reminder was included, but it was not the point.

but the people here who want to be a part of the testing also want to have some sort of gaming experience in so doing.

<-- this was my point. the player experience. and explained why this decision has been made. and how this procedure softens the edge over time.

Frustrating them will surely cause some to not return if it is just too hard to make even basic progress.

<-- i also explained that this is happening from the beginning. that a lot has been built in to make it easier erarlier. and that always some people will be frustrated.

Let’s face it, crafting is clearly essential to this game, and those willing to spend the time and effort to do it well will have made an dedicated commitment to the game succeeding.  

<-- let's face it, crafting is also teamplay oriented. you need resources from specialialized harvesters, products from other specialized professions and protections from able warriors.

No question about the required social aspects to the game; I think they are equally essential to the game’s overall success. And all MMORPGs have to deal with this to some extent by providing a path for solo players to enjoy the game while remaining true to the basic thrust of the game to create a social environment where teamwork creates success.

<-- crowfall is not a single-player game. like i said, it is possible, but it would be very hard. these are not my words, this has been said by ACE from the very beginning. and that they are making crowfall not for everybody, but for those who like this kind of game. of course this may change gradualy over time when the game becomes more successfull. but for now (and the first time after release) it is not recommended to play alone, for it comes with an additional price. the necessity of higher attention and more careful decision, just to name two. if someone crafts within a campaign world, this player has to be careful. some walls are not a real protection. comrades are a much better one.

<-- this is a basic principle of crowfall. it is very unlikely to change. crafters are part of the supply chain. and being able to break the supply chain is part of the game. crafters have to be protected. the earlier this is learned, the better. and if a crafter looses something due to a bug, like walls or npc guards not working, then this is a usual part of the testing process. it is bound to happen. and it is meant to be reported in detail in the bug report threads, so it can be fixed to help the game succeed. it can be frustrating, but it dont have to be. but even if it is, it is ok. frustrated feedback can reveal limits. is it necessary? no. is it helpful? sometimes. is reporting bugs in the bug threads and putting constructive suggestions in the suggestion threads more helpful? definitely. for those who can't see this at all, this is not the right time to join the testers. it's not a shame. it's just not the right time yet. ACE's job is not to make testing most convinient, let alone more convinient than the later game - it's their job to get the game done. besides that it is their decision that they want to make testing convinient enough to make enough testers to stay to get more data to make the game better. that they did all the time. and i think this should be recognized.

see "<--" edits in the quote.

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Posted (edited)

were you using your 'local banks' at the beachhead and at specific forts near the crafting station you were using? [while smaller, these don't have import/export counters like the spirit bank does]

Edited by Tinnis

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Hi Adrienne, I like your idea about the disappearing tables. I feel like you acknowledge and understand it is a PvP mmo. It feels like we are talking about the very specific context of first player experience as it stands currently and with a suggestion that sounds quite reasonable using things the developers have already made that could be instated in a future patch with minimal effort.

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@Adrienne, thank you for your feedback - and thank you to everyone else who shared some helpful tips and advice. The new player experience (NPE) is something on the horizon, but we won't be able to implement it for a while yet. 

I'm moving this thread from General Discussion to Testing General Discussion to raise its visibility with our team and other active testers. 

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23 hours ago, Adrienne said:

I came in pretty excited about Crowfall. I'm less enthused now. My lack of enthusiasm stems from having been killed several times in the last several days while in the middle of crafting. One player waltzed into the crafting area and killed me while all of the guards stood around and watched. I get that that is a bug. I get that the game is set up to drive team play, but at this early stage where I rarely see more than 2 or 3 other players on at a time, not having a safe place to craft is a real impediment to getting into this game. I want to craft. I want to become good at it. But right now, I am unable to harvest the materials, assemble the components and produce a product without, seemingly, being killed in the process. I've lost hundreds of hides, hundreds of ore, hundreds of dust, and numerous other items because there is no safe way to craft. You can't really craft in the EK because quickly the spirit bank runs out of transfers. You have no visibility of what is going on around you, so you are reliant on the guards, who generally fail to react to an intruder unless directly attacked. This is not meant to be whining, but it is meant to point out that at this early stage, if you want to give folks the incentive to craft, you need to allow it to happen in a safe space-like a beachhead. Alternatively, make the guards do their jobs, or make it necessary for at least three people to be involved in taking over a fort, not just one. Or limit the number of items a killer can loot, or allow items to be entered into crafting window directly from the bank instead of having to be in inventory. There are probably 20 ways to improve this situation so that, until player numbers and guild presence can provide security for crafters, they don't get continually ganked. After wasting the last 4 days attempting to make a leather breastplate, I doubt I'll be back for a while. Too much of a grind, for too high a risk.

if you make some stuff for me, i can protect you gathering/crafting . i'm offering my service

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Honestly, anyone expecting to be "safe" in Crowfall, might need to read more about the game. Unless all crafters play in three-faction campaigns and hide in beachheads (impossible to make great gear considering no advanced tables can be found here), there should be no expectation of safety. Its just one of those things that like Pope said, you need to mitigate risks. Yes, even during the testing phase. 

Think of it as good practice for when the game does go live.

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3 hours ago, Scree said:

Honestly, anyone expecting to be "safe" in Crowfall, might need to read more about the game. Unless all crafters play in three-faction campaigns and hide in beachheads (impossible to make great gear considering no advanced tables can be found here), there should be no expectation of safety. Its just one of those things that like Pope said, you need to mitigate risks. Yes, even during the testing phase. 

Think of it as good practice for when the game does go live.

As the thread went on I feel Adrienne acknowledged several times they are prepared to be unsafe.

Interesting you mention the concept of 'hiding in the beachheads'. The response to wanting to explore crafting without interruption was generally do it in your EK. As it stands people are using the EK as a solo PvE instance for gathering and crafting. If there was a solo PvE instance for combat the community would collectively have kittens and rightfully so. 

I'm speaking to the reality of what the new player experience on LIVE is at this moment. From my experience it is a trickling in of ungrouped players who have come to explore the game and they want to be in the cw. They will group in time but it isn't their first concern. I'm simply suggesting that keeping them in the cw exploring a part of the game they are interested in could be stickier for new players. 

I'm sure the changes will be great in future. Simply some feedback here and some ideas about shorter term solutions.

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Oh, I get it, but everyone testing needs to understand that unless they've changed their vision, you won't be able to export and import between campaigns/ek as freely when the game comes out. It's not a long-term solution and its absolutely not something to get comfortable relying on to "test" crafting.

If they wanted to turn Crowfall into a place with safe zones to craft and trade, they certainly have a variety of tools to accomplish that. They haven't publicly stated any of them as being an eventuality though.

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