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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Devonic said:

Remember, training is set to 10x, so training will be really slow and non-soft launch player will not be that far behind. Also some campaigns are said to be set so that you cannot import goods, so there will be some cases were we start out with nothing, either as a backer or not.

Also, I believe that if people are working to help get the bugs out before launch, they should get some benefit.

Look at Eve online, even after 10 years of skill over time based training,, they are still getting new players (Last time I logged on anyway, about 6 months ago)

I recognize this and have three major points of rebuttal.

(1) 15 years have passed since Eve Online released, and the MMO market has changed significantly in that time. One of the ways it has changed is monetization, notable in ACE's decision not to have a subscription. Another way it has changed is the advent of Soft Launches as opposed to closed betas and Launch-day.

(2) I do not think the argument "but, it's not that big of an advantage" will be persuasive to many people.

Additionally, I believe people working to help get bugs out before launch should not get any benefit beyond game knowledge.

Ultimately, this is a PR problem. The language of Soft Launch is fairly poisonous to my guild-mates and, I'm guessing, to other MMO players. Nothing we share or say to them about catch-up and EK/CW is altering their skepticism about Soft Launch, even if it should.

Edited by McTan

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Posted (edited)

Pretty much players who have ever gone all in at launch should get the process...   you participate in the final beta tests and are ready at soft launch...   if you miss the final beta it is likely that you won't be ready for the launch/soft launch.   It is pretty much a given in every game that Beta testers have a distinct advantage and beta is free for all who registered an account.    Missing the boat is kind of an "own damn fault" problem.   

Your guilds economic machine being set up is FAR more important that the skill training anyway...   if you get set up so players joining after soft launch can be quickly brought up to speed in gearz/vessel alone you eliminate 80% of any power gap to launch players.   Crowfall allowing full trade of any and all gear as opposed to character locked gear like most mmo launches means catch up is very real if you are part of a guild.

Edited by Frykka

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Posted (edited)

I think a combat test later in the development cycle where everyone can get late game gear from vendors will allow us to see the true impact of skills. It is obvious that with just a basic weapon skills are a huge advantage, but we should test that advantage when both people have late game gear/vessel/jewelry and solid class builds.

I will be satisfied as long as player skill is a significant factor(includes build choice).

Edited by MJayed

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I still don't understand why this is an issue. ANY MMORPG game you play you have to catch up if starting late... having a guild helps with all of this. Just having advanced weapons/armor and crafted vessel makes you viable. 

 

Sure I may be behind a few months in training, but as you progress through the trees it gets VERY VERY long to train, remember we have accelerated training. So with that said I would catch up to a pretty decent state due to the longer times and using tomes or whatever. Now I'm a lot more viable than I was...

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Basic group is 3 months, intermediate is 6 months and advanced groups are 12 months. To move to the next group you need to train half so, 45 days, 3 months, to get the advanced but those skill nodes in the advanced group take long and give the same amount as the basic and intermediate, thus making them worth the least in terms of progression. Take that and add in skill caps, it could be possible to only need a few points per node.

you get more skills in the basic and intermediate than in the advanced group.

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Posted (edited)

So I use my VIP accounts to twink my other less trained account and go roll newbies?   If you have a guild crafter(s) you make much better gear for new players that have little skill training but it boosts their combat power by 8X over "actual" new players...   makes absolutely ZERO sense when ANY player can equip the best vessel and gear on day they first log in.   

SKILL TRAINING is less than 20% of  combat power...   you cannot base entry on some kind of solo player mentality.
We are already gonna twink out vessels in the outer ring CWs with gear made from materials gained from wins in the inner dregs ring...  We cannot likely import that high quality gear back into the Dregs so "twinking" IS a main part of the whole CW scheme.

Edited by Frykka

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2 hours ago, MJayed said:

I think a combat test later in the development cycle where everyone can get late game gear from vendors will allow us to see the true impact of skills. It is obvious that with just a basic weapon skills are a huge advantage, but we should test that advantage when both people have late game gear/vessel/jewelry and solid class builds.

I will be satisfied as long as player skill is a significant factor(includes build choice).

WE are doing that right NOW in live...   Many Vet players have NO MORE skills to train and have had top end vessel and gear for several CWs and vessels now too...   there should be good data on end game and we all are bored and some of us desire a full skill wipe because early game is usually more balanced and fun than end game...   

Lose the 10x training already...

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Frykka said:

WE are doing that right NOW in live...   Many Vet players have NO MORE skills to train and have had top end vessel and gear for several CWs and vessels now too...   there should be good data on end game and we all are bored and some of us desire a full skill wipe because early game is usually more balanced and fun than end game...   

Lose the 10x training already...

My understanding is that all of the classes will go through at least one large balance patch...meaning combat testing right now will not mirror what we should expect come launch. Also, worst case scenario is that you don't have balanced end game classes that forces a nerf to certain classes that people have spent months passively training.

Edited by MJayed

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3 hours ago, McTan said:

Ultimately, this is a PR problem. The language of Soft Launch is fairly poisonous to my guild-mates and, I'm guessing, to other MMO players. Nothing we share or say to them about catch-up and EK/CW is altering their skepticism about Soft Launch, even if it should.

I agree that this is based on language confusion.

Typical MMO process is:   closed beta > marketing push to build hype > open beta stress test >  final data wipe and Launch

Crowfall process:  closed beta for backers and registrants > final data wipe and Launch > marketing push to bring in new players

The description of 2 launches - "soft launch" and "commercial launch" is what is confusing everyone. Most people do not want to test, they want to play at the "real launch".

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32 minutes ago, MJayed said:

My understanding is that all of the classes will go through at least one large balance patch...meaning combat testing right now will not mirror what we should expect come launch. Also, worst case scenario is that you don't have balanced end game classes that forces a nerf to certain classes that people have spent months passively training.

It isn't going to change anything that much and balancing is not around solo play at all...  balancing is last and is group meta, not 1v1 so one class has no balancing thought vs another...   Combat right now is 90% of how it will balance out at launch as far as build and snowballing...   yea...  champs will get a nurf to their self heal and stuff but don't exect any major changes to classes, it is the group synergy that counts.   This stretch and pass on the skill trees I hope is the last of this phase where we get 10x training...   

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1 hour ago, Frykka said:

WE are doing that right NOW in live...   Many Vet players have NO MORE skills to train and have had top end vessel and gear for several CWs and vessels now too...   there should be good data on end game and we all are bored and some of us desire a full skill wipe because early game is usually more balanced and fun than end game...   

Lose the 10x training already...

we've had a year or more without end game skills or top tier gear. it's there so it can be tested. that's the reason they've changed the skills to be faster.

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16 hours ago, malyngo said:

Aren't new players coming to already established MMOs all the time? How many new players does Eve get every month?

4 hours ago, yianni said:

I still don't understand why this is an issue. ANY MMORPG game you play you have to catch up if starting late...

This issue is mostly irrelevant for PvE MMOs, where the race to have the best stuff is more or less only in your head.

Among PvP MMOs, you have to tread lightly.  If the incumbants have a huge advantage (and I'm not saying they have one in Crowfall), new players might be facing an impossible obsticle. The early players didn't have established enemies squashing them at every turn, but new players will, and that is unfair enough to dissuade some new players.

I joined Ultima Online late. I could not get out of the city. As soon as I stepped outside of the gates, any of the gates, I was insta-smashed.  I didn't rage quit, I kept trying, I tried nighttime, I tried training to higher levels.  I put a battery on the F11 key and let it "hit the training dummy" all night long while I slept. But alas, I could not survive as soon as I stepped outside of the gates I was insta-dead.  So eventually I quit, having experienced very little of that game. It's unfortunate because that game left a positive memory on a lot of people, a memory I unfortunately cannot share in.

That being said, with Crowfall there are LOTS of mitigating factors:

  • You can JOIN the powerful established players by finding a good guild, rather than starting as an underdog.
  • Established guilds fall apart due to in-fighting and attrition.
  • Skills, while long to train, only count for 20% of your overall lethality. I'm not sure I agree that this is true for Crowfall, but the point has been made.
4 hours ago, Frykka said:

Missing the boat is kind of an "own damn fault" problem.  

But that becomes a problem for ACE if new players are hard to come by.  Then that becomes a problem for us if ACE can't maintain funding.

I want Crowfall to succeed over the long term.  That means I want ACE to have funding for the long term. That means I want new players coming into the game. That means new players must have a compelling story.  That's all I'm saying.  I'm just saying "I care about newbies," I'm a carebear.  So there, I said it.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/15/2018 at 8:58 PM, McTan said:

The commercial launch needs to involve a full wipe. Everyone who picks up the game at "launch" needs to have a true Day 1 experience, IMO.

Soft launch is the Day 1 experience. Everyone should treat it as the true launch of the game.

IF ACE starts telling people that there will be another wipe after soft launch, that would stand in the way of soft launch being accepted as a real launch. And it would pretty much require them to not start charging for VIP, as charging for VIP and then wiping would piss people off.

I think people are putting too much thought into the whole soft launch thing. Soft launch is launch. That is when the game truly starts, and anyone who wants to be in from the start should start at that time.

Edited by Jah

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I figured soft launch was beta. A full campaign cycle with a winning condition. Shut down, fix bugs and prepare for offical launch.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Ginko said:

I figured soft launch was beta. A full campaign cycle with a winning condition. Shut down, fix bugs and prepare for offical launch.

I think you should think again about that. Soft launch comes after beta. The final wipe happens and then the game soft launches. That is the launch that matters to us players.

Soft launch is not beta and there is nothing to be gained from thinking it is.

Edited by Jah

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2 minutes ago, Jah said:

I think you should think again about that. Soft launch comes after beta. The final wipe happens and then the game soft launches. That is the launch that matters to us players.

And they came out and said this?

 

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9 minutes ago, Ginko said:

And they came out and said this?

Yes, many times. This is not new.

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8 minutes ago, Jah said:

Yes, many times. This is not new.

Okay, but JTC literally said #3 is something like open beta, besides for them not wiping.

If soft launch is launch, why not spend their advertising budget on it?

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13 minutes ago, McTan said:

Okay, but JTC literally said #3 is something like open beta, besides for them not wiping.

If soft launch is launch, why not spend their advertising budget on it?

He did not literally say that. ACE has been clear that soft launch comes after the final wipe, and that soft launch is when they will start charging monthly VIP. That is the real launch of the game. Beta will happen before the final wipe, and they won't charge monthly VIP during beta. Those two factors make beta and soft launch very different.

JTC explained why they are saving some of their advertising budget for after soft launch. Are you asking me to paraphrase it? I don't have strong opinions on how ACE should spend their advertising budget.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Jah said:

Soft launch is the Day 1 experience. Everyone should treat it as the true launch of the game.

IF ACE starts telling people that there will be another wipe after soft launch, that would stand in the way of soft launch being accepted as a real launch. And it would pretty much require them to not start charging for VIP, as charging for VIP and then wiping would piss people off.

I think people are putting too much thought into the whole soft launch thing. Soft launch is launch. That is when the game truly starts, and anyone who wants to be in from the start should start at that time.

I fully agree about the VIP.

My point is that, according to their own plan, it is not the launch of the game for people who have not been following for a while. That comes after as they "funnel people" into the game through a streamlined new player experience. But, part of that new player experience will be the knowledge that some players are already playing and have tangible benefits, and the publicity that follows.

I think we have to acknowledge that if the game truly starts at soft launch, then many players will be supposed to start after then, and they will not be happy to find out that others are already playing. They would feel different, I think, if the moment that ACE stops wiping is stated as the launch. Otherwise, new players, with no stock in ACE - literally or figuratively - will eye the game, find out that they are joining late, and walk away.

Some say I am overthinking, and that's a perfectly valid opinion. But, I think the wider MMO community has no interest in starting games later than other players got to - it will be viewed as something analogous to P2W or an "insiders" club, right or wrong. People will want to hear about the game before the final wipe, so they can start on time. But, that means that the final wipe should be advertised widely. And we are back at the question of how and when to advertise.

Edited by McTan

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