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McTan

Soft Launch

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Just now, Barab said:

The general consensus among all of them is Crowfall is soft launching in order to capitalize on a pay two win scheme.

They won't care once people they trust start telling them the game is good, the p2w stuff was BS, and they should come play.

In the meantime, that malaise cannot be stamped out by anything ACE says.

I mean, seriously, what does ACE telling us how they plan to spend their marketing budget have to do with p2w schemes? This is just nonsense.


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2 minutes ago, Barab said:

Arguing with me ? Posting concerns is considered an "argument" ? 

 I am telling you there is a bubble heading to a big pop regarding this soft launch and pay to win label, right or wrong, that will continue to grow across the mmo community unless it's handled better. I have access to multiple large gaming communities. The general consensus among all of them is Crowfall is soft launching in order to capitalize on a pay to win scheme. I dont agree with it of course but it is a real opinion many have.  

any and all pre-release garbage, mostly by PvE goons who hate any and all open world PvP will simply blow away on the wind...     It is the beta and soft launch builds that will tell the truth to interested players.   Those who miss the boat because of bad information have none to blame but themselves and the haters, they will still come when the game goes awesome and then will complain about catching up until they realize that it also won't be as big an issue as every other phony concern.  


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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2 minutes ago, Barab said:

Arguing with me ? Posting concerns is considered an "argument" ? 

 I am telling you there is a bubble heading to a big pop regarding this soft launch and pay to win label, right or wrong, that will continue to grow across the mmo community unless it's handled better. I have access to multiple large gaming communities. The general consensus among all of them is Crowfall is soft launching in order to capitalize on a pay two win scheme. I dont agree with it of course but it is a real opinion many have.  

So aside from changing the plan, which is a better plan than release and burn out, and is what investors have put money in to support, or changing the model, which is in fact not pay to win because you literally don't have to pay to get all the same advantages after you buy once, what do you suggest ACE do about the obvious and often times willing and deliberate ignorance of those that you claim to have a consensus?

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When time allows publish a clear statement, easily found on the website, and provided to gaming sites, perhaps even as a news article, stating what is or is not Crowfalls soft launch, how it is not pay to win.  

 


Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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1 minute ago, Barab said:

When time allows publish a clear statement, easily found on the website, and provided to gaming sites, perhaps even as a news article, stating what is or is not Crowfalls soft launch, how it is not pay to win.  

 

They are out there, both on this site, and elsewhere already.  In fact, that youtube troll you copied the video of actually tore several quotes out of context from a video with Gordon that did exactly that.

Now I'm really done.

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@McTan, I just want to tell you that I agree completely with you. I am glad there are some on this forum that are huge fans of the game, however some of this population will dismiss any criticism of the game at all (even if it is a legitimate concern). Whenever a new player posts about how their experience wasn't great, or how they didn't like a feature, the response from these "diehards" is reflexively explaining why their first impression is incorrect.

There is a danger in trying to pretend/act/believe that everything is going "dandy", dismissing any criticism as "the person is uninformed", and continue the same path. (The so called group think downfall in decision making.) The most important contributions early on in the development of any game is often from those providing constructive critism. 

Mctan brings up a great point, there are many [gamers] that do not want to join an MMO after launch because they believe they will be "behind" in progression. I haven't played WoW since 2006, I have never gone back, in part because I worry others are that much more progressed. So Mctan is bringing up a very reasonable concern, and I urge the fan base and the devs @jtoddcolemanto take valid and legitimate concerns (such as this one) with an open mind rather than always reflexively trying to explain why they are wrong. Constructive criticism is how people, companies, and video games are improved. It sure has helped me become a better physician.

Edited by Mykro

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Thanks Tinnis, great find.

So the over arching philosophy from one of the first kickstarter interviews.

This interview from 2015.

I'm also quite confident ACE has their fingers on the pulse of all these sites as well as or better than you regarding the "general consensus".

https://www.mmorpg.com/crowfall/interviews/todd-coleman-on-crowfalls-first-pre-alpha-lessons-learned-1000010199

Quote

Lastly, Todd mentioned that he reads MMORPG every day, and every day he watches the most popular or most hyped games lists. He’s thrilled that Crowfall is usually around the top of course, but what he finds most exciting is that the top hyped games are all generally independent titles.

This is pretty much what this thread is an example of.

BTW, as an investor and stockholder, something NO other game company before offered players and ACE went through tons of effort with the SEC and legal hoops to allow the community to participate in, I have access to the numbers of new registrations/backers.  I can't give details but that information also informs my opinion on what the "general consensus" is about the popularity and opinion of the game. Even with all the alleged noise about it being P2W I stand by my position that this concern is basically a non-issue.

So now show me your list of links to general consensus, or other proof that ACE's launch strategy is flawed.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I must have forgot unless one has 3k posts and a name I dont even recognize as a tester you cant voice an opinion or provide feedback regarding Crowfall. 

Tinnis's link is a perfect example of what I am speaking of. Some buried almost two year old soft launch definition that absolute no one can find unless you search web archives except Tinnis because he is Tinnis. 

Also you are confused, me saying there are quantities of mmorpg players, gaming communities,  and streaming personalities growing in their labeling of Crowfall as being a p2w soft launch scheme isnt the same as agreeing with them. 

 

Edited by Barab

Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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3 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I can't give details but that information also informs my opinion on what the "general consensus" is about the popularity and opinion of the game. Even with all the alleged noise about it being P2W I stand by my position that this concern is basically a non-issue.

So now show me your list of links to general consensus, or other proof that ACE's launch strategy is flawed.

 

I wouldn't start a statement "I have evidence I can't show you" if you're asking someone else to present their evidence to you.

I agree with you in theory, but this is a wholly unconvincing statement that isn't going to move the conversation anywhere productive, even if it is true.

Also, it is impossible to prove because it references a future event that has not come to pass, and the numbers you have access to as a stockholder in no way indicate to success or lack thereof of this strategy because the question at hand is how players react to the marketing push/soft launch. Neither of these things has actually happened, and thus they can't impact the velocity of those financial numbers. You don't have any better evidence than anyone else does, as this entire thread is an exercise in theorycraft.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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If this were a real cash grab Community Management would've shut this thread down ages ago.  I would've thought it obvious that "Pay 2 Accelerate" =/= (does not equal) "Pay to Win"; the team has already stated that it's their job to balance monetization against a healthy (i.e. "fair") game environment.  All this masturbatory posturing and rhetoric is silly.

There's an argument to be made about Tax-Free parcels, however, but it's much too early to say how they will affect the game beyond the EK -- although the Devs may just find a way to introduce those into the game as a reward specifically to quash this sort of allegation.  The campaign import and export quantum exists as a check against over-powered accounts, skill tomes are being marketed as (and so, we can assume, they will be implemented as) a convenience to players looking to catch up to the "VIP" curve. 

Acceleration to a soft- or hard-cap is not the same as monetizing "power" (which, I assume, we are equating to a stat-based advantage) over the entire life of the game.

TL;DR:  Worry less, Trust the Developers. 

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Edited by AtomicSquirrel

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I feel that sure the passive skill training forces commercial launch starters to be a bit behind, which is supposed to be fixable by the yet to see tome system. If Crowfall was a typical mmorpg where worlds are permanent I would also be concerned about the no wipe after soft launch.

However, with the campaign and  victory condition game style Crowfall will have, I'm not at all concerned about some of the community being behind in passive training at start. If I remember correctly we are supposed to be getting dif types of campaigns as well to limit the issue of a group of "uncle bobs" just getting their hands on newbies.

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Honestly, soft launch doesn't feel as fair as a wipe for commercial launch.

Having said that, I honestly don't think the servers could handle everyone creating a new character for launch day and trying to get into new campaigns as well. The servers would also possibly have troubles recognizing VIP status properly that first day as well, with everyone going from automatic free VIP to skin in the game VIP. 

So long as soft launch doesn't lead commercial launch by more than a month, I don't think the difference will be too big a handicap. It's just one of those things that we'll have to live with, or not if this straw (combined with other minor drawbacks) breaks the back of your game tolerance camel.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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7 hours ago, Barab said:

I must have forgot unless one has 3k posts and a name I dont even recognize as a tester you cant voice an opinion or provide feedback regarding Crowfall. 

Tinnis's link is a perfect example of what I am speaking of. Some buried almost two year old soft launch definition that absolute no one can find unless you search web archives except Tinnis because he is Tinnis. 

Also you are confused, me saying there are quantities of mmorpg players, gaming communities,  and streaming personalities growing in their labeling of Crowfall as being a p2w soft launch scheme isnt the same as agreeing with them.

oh, i agree. it is impossible for a casual or new person to find or follow alot of crowfall's information dumps [cough hour+ livestreams], [cough 'accidently' 'deleting' years worth of news updates], [cough, woefully out of date FAQs without easy navigation structure], [cough, forum devtracker lacks a long term history and the native search leaves much to be desired] etc

were 1st and 3rd paragraphs at me, i'm just putting relevant links here, not getting involved in this! :P

i see enough of (and reply to) such talk on reddit and youtube already!

Edited by Tinnis

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56 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

 

were 1st and 3rd paragraphs at me, i'm just putting relevant links here, not getting involved in this! :P

 

Nope neither were directed at you brother. Ive actually logged into a server with you on it in the past. Nothing but respect for all you contribute to the community. I appreciate you finding that two year archived link defining the soft launch. Ive been looking for it for a while. I know the message is out there but it's not easy to find. 

Edited by Barab

Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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8 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

 

I wouldn't start a statement "I have evidence I can't show you" if you're asking someone else to present their evidence to you.

I agree with you in theory, but this is a wholly unconvincing statement that isn't going to move the conversation anywhere productive, even if it is true.

Also, it is impossible to prove because it references a future event that has not come to pass, and the numbers you have access to as a stockholder in no way indicate to success or lack thereof of this strategy because the question at hand is how players react to the marketing push/soft launch. Neither of these things has actually happened, and thus they can't impact the velocity of those financial numbers. You don't have any better evidence than anyone else does, as this entire thread is an exercise in theorycraft.

I didn't start with that evidence, I used it to supplement the other evidence presented in this thread, and I was very careful to say "informs my opinion".

But frankly this thread has been subject to repeated logical and argumentative fallacies.

Quote

The concern is quite simply that CF will not get the population necessary to thrive by creating this schism. When new players hear about the game pre-commercial launch, during the marketing, they may be excited but will not pick-up the game due to the ultimate "Uncle Bob" situation: those early players who started at soft-launch will all have an advantage.

and a to now 

Quote

When time allows publish a clear statement, easily found on the website, and provided to gaming sites, perhaps even as a news article, stating what is or is not Crowfalls soft launch, how it is not pay to win.  

Then comes even more argument drift of moving the goalposts with the horribly undefined "easily found on the website", when the fact is the plan is contained in multiple places all over on the site, in archives of the site, on multiple video interviews with multiple media sources, and even in the original post in this thread, which is a news post directly addressing the plan, which HAS NOT CHANGED SINCE DAY ONE. His call for further statements of a specific nature defined by him is simply a variation of the logical fallacy of "no true scotsman".

The real answer to the original concern, that players won't join because passive training is 'the ultimate "Uncle Bob" situation' has quite simply only one answer, that I have given multiple times and has been dismissed out of hand.

No change to the launch plan will "fix" that problem if it is one, and if it is as deep a problem in the finished game as he is concerned about, then the game is dead on arrival (DOA) no matter what the release schedule. The game design itself needs to be fun and viable to players who join day one, or years after the start.  

I actually need to revise that DOA part, because I know from other changes ACE has made in the past, and other statements from ACE about rebuilding what is broken or not right with the game systems, that if in fact passive training turns out to be the barrier that stops people from playing, they will rebuild the entire system from the ground up if needed. They did it with combat, they did it with race/class, and they have done it now 3 times with training, all because of player input.

In fact, the only way to see just how much impact it does have, is to soft launch with the current plan, let some people get "ahead", and then see if it in fact does dissuade new players in significant enough numbers to be concerned about.  They are going to run with passive training and training boosts for VIP because they have promised those things for over three years now, and also if for no other reason than to see if that solves the player activity differential problem that locks so many out of joining other MMO's when their friends get too far ahead.

This thread stopped being about "voicing a concern" quite some time ago, when answers were dismissed out of hand and goalposts moved repeatedly.

Oh right I almost forgot, you can now add ad hominem personal attacks and anecdotal evidence to the list of fallacies used in this argument. 

9 hours ago, Barab said:

I must have forgot unless one has 3k posts and a name I dont even recognize as a tester you cant voice an opinion or provide feedback regarding Crowfall. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Cliff notes please ? Now I see how someone can have 3k post yet Ive never fought them during any test run dating back to hunger dome nor seen them on any test server on any region. Just curious what guild do you belong to ? 

 

Keep this real simple to avoid further confusion on what we are saying.

There is ever growing viral confused and incorrect opinion among the mmorpg communities regarding what Crowfall's soft launch is or isnt as well as an incorrect consensus on what pay 2 win in a pvp game like Crowfall is. Even original pre alpha testers are confused still on what the difference between beta, soft launch, and official release is. Any and all information out there from Artcraft is over two years old, hard to find, or in clips here or there on dev streams. At some point, in my opinion sooner rather than later, it should be addressed head on with the mmorpg media outlets as well as hosted in a clear and easily seen area on Crowfall's website.

 

 

Edited by Barab

Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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