Skill Mechanics & You - Official Discussion Thread

[ACE_JackalBark 1,145]

Curious about our latest update to the skill trees?

FULL STORY

[Jah 8,368]

Looks like some good changes there.

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Additionally, skill nodes can unlock new gameplay features like crafting recipes and passive powers.

Might we see more skills that unlock gameplay features than we have in the past?

Can we train both Chivalry and Barbarian at the same time? Or not because they are both part of Fighter tree? Technically that wouldn't be double-dipping like Fighter and Chivalry at same time would be.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Jah

[Anhrez 960]

I look forward to being able to 'click' around in it as I think the benefits and challenges will be a lot more apparent as we map out the paths we want to spend but the reason for the changes does come through with the examples given. 

Hope to see some changes in the Profession training/benefits in the Race trees, missing profs and a bit too much duplication  (imho) right now. 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Anhrez

[Durenthal 2,443]

This is a significant change, and a positive one.  The one thing that saddens me is that I'll no longer be able to train my human knight and my half-giant myrmidon on the same account with VIP.  That's unfortunate.

It's more than unfortunate, actually.  It'd be really nice if we could train parallel trees (human and half-blood, chivalry and barbarian) at the same time, since there's no double-dipping involved.   I understand the value in making it simple to understand ("one fighter-based tree only") but you're forcing odd pairings.  Human Knight and Half-Giant Myrm were a perfect pairing even without any double dipping, and now they're forbidden.  I can't start training half-giant until I'm done training human.  And I can't start training Barbarian until I'm done Chivalry.  My wife wanted a human cleric and a nethari confessor on her account.  Can't have that any more either.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Durenthal

[Svenn 424]

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We also took some time to make spending skill points faster and more rewarding. The old method was pretty clunky to use, and took a considerable amount of time if you had more than a couple of days banked.

I see you got my feedback!  Thank you!

I'm loving this. I love the double dipping fixes! Not only did it fix double dipping but it made the whole thing easier to understand.

I agree with @Durenthal that it's a bit sad that I can't train two different fighters or two different mages at the same time, but it's not that big of a deal and one I'm totally okay with in return for no double dipping and an easy to understand system.

Great update!

[jtoddcoleman 9,166]

31 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

This is a significant change, and a positive one.  The one thing that saddens me is that I'll no longer be able to train my human knight and my half-giant myrmidon on the same account with VIP.  That's unfortunate.

It'd be really nice if we could train parallel trees (human and half-blood, chivalry and barbarian) at the same time

This is actually a really good point, and one that escaped my notice.  Let me think about it and get back to you.

Todd

 

[KrakkenSmacken 4,921]

Much much better.

I like the removal of "basics". Those always felt to me like "something I have to wait for before even beginning to really play the game". Saw an awful lot of new player complaints to that effect as well. 

Much cleaner interface, and I love the starting a session with a positive training experience, and probably pretty easy to pre-load new accounts with a starting amount of points to assign. 

Also probably much easier to turn it into a VIP only app in this format as well.

Edited April 19, 2018 by KrakkenSmacken

[Gradishar 1,257]

12 minutes ago, jtoddcoleman said:

This is actually a really good point, and one that escaped my notice.  Let me think about it and get back to you.

Todd

 

I agree with Durenthal. Once you pick Barbarian as your primary Class Track you should be able to pick Chivalry for your secondary Class track. Presumably, we'll eventually get Myrmidon and Champion trees as well. Once I pick Myrmidon as a primary track I should be able to pick Mage, Divine, Cleric or Champion as my Secondary Class Track.

[Kcing 98]

So I plan on being a VIP player but I think non VIP players should get a 2nd pick just in the profession track also. Maybe at a reduce rate. I feel that only 1 Profession may be to boring to keep a lot of players. As for myself this added benefit wouldn't be enough for me to stop paying a VIP subscription but it may be enough for others players. I feel it should be talked about to see just how many would be discourage to pay for a VIP subscription if everyone got 2 picks in the profession track.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Kcing

[KrakkenSmacken 4,921]

4 minutes ago, Kcing said:

So I plan on being a VIP player but I think non VIP players should get a 2nd pick just in the profession track also. Maybe at a reduce rate. I feel that only 1 Profession may be to boring to keep a lot of players. As for myself this added benefit wouldn't be enough for me to stop paying a VIP subscription but it may be enough for others players. I feel it should be talked about to see just how many would be discourage to pay for a VIP subscription if everyone got 2 picks in the profession track.

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VIP players will also have a secondary track where they may passively accrue skill points in a different tree. The rate of accrual for secondary tracks may be at a different rate than the primary track, and we are still figuring out what that speed is.

Humm, I kinda like that idea.

Could be non-VIP has a 20% speed second track, VIP 50-100%. Still a boost and quicker access to a bit of variety, but not as effective or fast without VIP. 

As a VIP player, I don't mind the idea of non-vip accounts being more valuable. There are other benefits to VIP anyway, so this perk doesn't need to be the most important one.

 

 

[Scree 1,903]

I'm not a huge fan of this reverse funnel you guys have crafted. I'd much prefer you detach all the trees from another and allow freedom in which trees we train entirely. I'd rather you have a collection of standalone "books", that don't require you knowing what is in any of the books before you pick up reading (training) them. These books would still apply their benefits to a specific race, class, profession, etc. Yet the ability to jump around and train a book that I want, at any time is interesting to me. Forcing me down a path you guys created is honestly, a bit like every other MMO out there.

Giving players more options (even if they are bad ones) was one of the interesting approaches to character progression in Crowfall.

Effectively this skill system remains absent of the concept @jtoddcoleman repeatedly used early on in development, the one where "choices have consequences". I assume at this point this concept and approach to developing Crowfall is entirely removed. I haven't heard you guys say that phrase in a while because you've seemingly decided to discard any concept of risk (experimenting/specializing) versus reward (having a superpowerful build no one else has). I'm saddened by this, but not surprised. 

Pitch the game to the extremes, then walk everything back to moderation. Feels like just about every political campaign to me so far.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Scree

[Tinnis 8,367]

@jtoddcoleman

so you have removed race and class basics - do you have any similar plans to improve the basic profession experience?

many new players - esp crafters or harvesters - are met with the feeling that they have to just wait a few weeks to play.

have you considered previous suggestion of new accounts starting with X days to spend in the basic profession tree of their choice to make the start feel more of a choice and part of initial character creation?

https://community.crowfall.com/topic/19550-should-all-accounts-start-with-x-days-in-the-time-bank/

p.s. previously a class would take 1.8 years to max train how has removal of race and class effected total tree time (will this be a long term progression or vip value issue)

p.p.s. i find combat tree of limited interest as they lack unique unlocked utility compared to exploration or crafting

Edited April 19, 2018 by Tinnis

[Gradishar 1,257]

1. I like these changes. While I would have preferred to allow Blacksmiths to also train Leatherworking...I understand the desire and even need to make these changes and simply things. Well done.
2. While the structure is absolutely a big step in the right direction, the trees themselves need an overhaul. The article says that recipes and passives are unlocked by skill training. I don't know of a single passive skill that is granted by the existing skill trees. The unlocking of passives and ACTIVE skills would be a big plus and really make skill training and account progression feel rewarding and worthwhile.
3. I am still an opponent of the including of harvesting and crafting skills within the racial trees. I think this was a mistake in a number of ways. First, it created a number of "wasted" nodes that had to be filled to unlock the master node in the racial trees if you had no intention of doing that harvesting or crafting profession. Second, it created clear paths to optimal harvesters or crafters. There is no question that HalfGiants and HalfElves are superior gravediggers because of the training nodes found within the HalfBlood racial tree. I believe these artificial paths to optimization  should be avoided and all races should be able to gravitate toward all harvesting and crafting professions without feeling like they are gimping themselves.
4. Please give us back the individual class trees we used to have under the old archetype system. The current class trees seem very generic. The old trees had more class specific based training nodes and at least seemed more valuable to actually training your class. Losing the Race Basics and Class Basics is a great step in avoiding VIP issues. However, I suspect that what you've done is simply lengthened out the Mankind/Sylvan/Monster and the Fighter/Mage/Rogue trees. In my opinion, these trees should be SHORTER not LONGER. The Divine/Arcane/Chivalry/Barbarian trees should also be shorter, and you should show us what Druid and Cleric training actually looks like (and let us get into those class specific trees within 9 months of starting training). The Class specific trees can be LONG...and I'm fine with making those trees take 1+ years to complete...but not having them...and not knowing whats in there...and never anticipating any specific class training is a mistake IMHO and one that would be relatively easy to correct. (the class trees should also be where you have class specific active powers for unlocking...ie FireBall2 for Confessors and LayOnHands for Templars for instance).

Edited April 19, 2018 by Gradishar

[Svenn 424]

1 minute ago, Scree said:

I'm not a huge fan of this reverse funnel you guys have crafted. I'd much prefer you detach all the trees from another and allow freedom in which trees we train entirely. Limiting trees to benefit specific races/classes is fine, but giving players more options (even if they are bad ones) was one of the interesting approaches to character progression in Crowfall.

Effectively this system has minimized the concept of "choices have consequences" which unfortunately seems to be a trend. I assume at this point I haven't heard you guys say that in a while because you've decided to discard any concept of risk (experimenting/specializing) versus reward (having a superpowerful build no one else has). I'm saddened by this, but not surprised. 

Pitch the game to the extremes, then walk everything back to moderation. Feels like just about every political campaign to me so far.

The skill trees were never really great at giving different and interesting character progression. It's the other stuff that will make for interesting character building. Disciplines (this is the main one), Advantages/Disadvantages, Gear, etc.

[KrakkenSmacken 4,921]

1 minute ago, Scree said:

I'm not a huge fan of this reverse funnel you guys have crafted. I'd much prefer you detach all the trees from another and allow freedom in which trees we train entirely. Limiting trees to benefit specific races/classes is fine, but giving players more options (even if they are bad ones) was one of the interesting approaches to character progression in Crowfall.

Effectively this system has minimized the concept of "choices have consequences" which unfortunately seems to be a trend. I assume at this point I haven't heard you guys say that in a while because you've decided to discard any concept of risk (experimenting/specializing) versus reward (having a superpowerful build no one else has). I'm saddened by this, but not surprised. 

Pitch the game to the extremes, then walk everything back to moderation. Feels like just about every political campaign to me so far.

Breaking an account for months from choice, is far different in nature that slotting the wrong discipline or leveling up the wrong attribute on a single vessel. 

The first can easily lead to game abandonment due to the time involved in correcting the choice, while the other has an active path to correction.  Passive training, especially with the training times required, that lets people break their entire account is just a bad plan until they get a respec system.

 

[Scree 1,903]

2 minutes ago, Svenn said:

The skill trees were never really great at giving different and interesting character progression. It's the other stuff that will make for interesting character building. Disciplines (this is the main one), Advantages/Disadvantages, Gear, etc.

But they do. They make you better at whatever you intend to play. They restrict movement into flavor of the month builds (because people who've trained in it, will be better at those builds). Disciplines give you access to it, absolutely, but skills make you great at it.

[Devonic 374]

The increase in skills is nice to see, just something more positive to accumulating skill points, instead of a count down timer.

[PopeUrban 4,338]

I'm curious why you thought it was a good idea to throttle down the secondary track. Doesn't this just incentivize people to buy a second account for a one time fee rather than pay a monthly fee for VIP?

If I want to really dip in to both the exploration and crafting tracks (a pretty natural pairing, and one I'd expect a lot of crafters to do) the most efficient method is just to buy a second account. Previously it was just the most (real life) economical method on a long enough time scale, but by making it mechanically superior as well I'm not sure why I would want to buy VIP at all.

I see myself either being frustrated that I have to upkeep VIP on two accounts (more costly) or babysit my skill points more often on two accounts (more of a hassle) and if I'm going to be annoyed either way, I'd probably opt to be annoyed in the way that costs me less money, and earns ACE less money.

[Scree 1,903]

4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Breaking an account for months from choice, is far different in nature that slotting the wrong discipline or leveling up the wrong attribute on a single vessel. 

The first can easily lead to game abandonment due to the time involved in correcting the choice, while the other has an active path to correction.  Passive training, especially with the training times required, that lets people break their entire account is just a bad plan until they get a respec system.

 

Again, I didn't pitch this game on the foundation I explained. They did during Kickstarter and for at least a year immediately after it. I'm merely saying I signed up for a game that rewards thinking ahead, and maybe hedging your bets by not putting your whole bank on a bet on Red 19. 

They apparently no longer plan on making that game, aka, let's hold everyone's hand so no one gets punished for making bad uninformed choices. 

To be clear, my recommendation doesn't remove "generalized" trees that benefit a dozen classes/races when you train in it. It simply allows you to skip to the end of the current trees and start their, instead of where they tell you.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Scree

[Gradishar 1,257]

The 125,000 points we see in the screenshots...do those represent RL seconds? Minutes? some other measurement of time?