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kaizoq

Spears

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Spears

"Along with the axe, knife and club it is one of the earliest and most important tools developed by early humans. As a weapon, it may be wielded with either one hand or two. It was used in virtually every conflict up until the modern era and is probably the most commonly used weapon in history." - Weir, William. 50 Weapons That Changed Warfare.

 

That's the weapon I've wanted to use - it also is the weapon that is hardly ever implemented in mmorpgs. Not sure why, they must have some sort of reasons, or could it just have been forgotten? I'd like to see spears in Crowfall, mainly two-handed. Wish I was a better spokesperson to get my point through .. but .. Spears?

 

Techniques with the weapon vary greatly (Nordic, Japanese, Chinese, etc.), as does the lenght of the weapon. Often, when bringing up the subject of spears - I have noticed that majority of people think it is solely a stabbing weapon. While spears are made for thrusting and piercing, especially nordic spears have a wider blade for cutting purposes.

 

For a not so realistic presentation of spear combat that surely can give some insight on possibilities of spear usage (animations, skills) in the game, I've got a little link for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=al1CpCfSEHo#t=37

 

The video consists of fighting clips from an animated series called "Moribito - Guardian of the Spirit".

 

.. before someone gets the chance to ask: Yes, I do like long hard shafts in my hand, baby.

 

500px-Spearman.png

Edited by kaiZoq

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I feel the same way, spears as well as shields are hugely overlooked in fantasy.

I think if they diversify a player's arsenal that way swords can be worn side arm style, while a primary weapon is uses, allowing alternative attack choices to exist for many characters, than it would be a lot more common.

But yeah, Spear, and shield too, would be nice if they were emphasized and applies strategically so their use could be appreciated.

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I am too a fan of Spear and Shields. One of the many reasons i chose the centaur as my main race is that he have the choice to use a spear and the shield, is too much hype in only one race. 


"An ordinary archer practices until he gets it right. A Ranger practices until he never gets it wrong." -The Lost Stories  


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✣Junte-se a nós✣

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Glad to see fellow spearmen in the community, looks like you're mainly interested in one-handed usage together with a shield? I prefer the long two-handed ones, reach and mobility together - squeeled like a fangirl whilst watching Oberyn fight in Game of Thrones with a spear.

 

speedpaint__oberyn_martell__the_red_vipe

Edited by kaiZoq

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Two hands on a weapon means you spend time blocking with the weapon, if you have a spear and shield, you just block with little effort with one hand and strike with the other.

I think Oberyn used spear and shield in the book, while Macedonian Phalanx used 12 foot infantry spears.

Short two handed polearms are usually deploying more utility like a Halberd.

 

new-polearm-thumbs.jpg

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Spears are weapons typically used by a "lesser" class of warriors, swords use so much metal they were expensive, but a spear just needs a tip and a strong shaft to be effective[hehehehe].

 

I'm all for spears and polearms, the go to OP-Weapon in every sandbox ever. Spears were typically light infantry weapons, so I would love to see some high mobility classes with extra dodges in exchange for a little lower damage, while sword wielding plate and shield wearers are tougher, slower and pack a heavier punch.

 

Please let us couch spears in groups at doorways.

 

"You shall not pass" and all that.

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Spears are weapons typically used by a "lesser" class of warriors, swords use so much metal they were expensive, but a spear just needs a tip and a strong shaft to be effective[hehehehe].

 

I'm all for spears and polearms, the go to OP-Weapon in every sandbox ever. Spears were typically light infantry weapons, so I would love to see some high mobility classes with extra dodges in exchange for a little lower damage, while sword wielding plate and shield wearers are tougher, slower and pack a heavier punch.

 

Please let us couch spears in groups at doorways.

 

"You shall not pass" and all that.

Fantasy misconception, everyone relied on spears, swords were side arms and offered wealthier warriors a stronger arsenal to fall back on, they still prioritized spear use.

 

crusader-clipart-18035734-medieval-knigh

 

Worse, swords are less and less useful the more armor improves, a 2 handed spear has superior armor punching power than any sword, see joust for reference. Many knights took up heavy infantry with pole weapons when Cavalry charges became dated.

 

All cultures, all situations, spears are primary weapon choice, when swords became prevalent, they just offered a superior fall back weapon than daggers and axes.

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Fantasy misconception, everyone relied on spears, swords were side arms and offered wealthier warriors a stronger arsenal to fall back on, they still prioritized spear use.

 

Worse, swords are less and less useful the more armor improves, a 2 handed spear has superior armor punching power than any sword, see joust for reference. Many knights took up heavy infantry with pole weapons when Cavalry charges became dated.

 

All cultures, all situations, spears are primary weapon choice, when swords became prevalent, they just offered a superior fall back weapon than daggers and axes.

 

Oh I didn't mean to imply that people who used swords only used swords, but full metal arms were typically a luxury reserved for the wealthy class of warriors. Spears are always useful, throwing, horseback or otherwise.

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Fantasy misconception

 

Bahamut, you're correct, but to add - it is a fantasy game we are discussing, no? :lol: And on another note I'd much prefer being a light infantry with a spear, dagger and crossbow than the generic greatsword hero in heavy plate, thus my thread.

Edited by kaiZoq

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I'd Achilles yo @ss ery day uh da week if I could have a Hoplite XD

 

achilles.jpg

No but really, its time for the spear and shield to get the fantasy treatment, reach, defense, versatility. These are the old legends, the great hero's who deserve their due. I wanna see archetypes based off Alexander and Achilles and Leonidas clash against the might of medieval lore. The warrior kings of Greece will show them how a true king claims right of conquest.

 

http://youtu.be/zenfAsoeTWA

Anyway, as an archetype, if they combine the Hoplite with naval association where heavy armor is weak, they'd have an archetype which holds various practical implications.

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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 it already looks like the flare for odd weapons from some of the picures I would venture to guess spears and polearms will be in the games as well.

 

Could you get some links to these pictures? I'm quite interested to see what odd weapons you're talking about.

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Yeah I don't see that axe being combat effective.


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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Well that is one ridiculous looking axe.

 

It's a Halberd, pole axe+spear.

 

Yeah I don't see that axe being combat effective.

 

halberds.gif

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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To plagiarize Musashi (Howard Collins, the game design wonk, not the swordsman) on spears:

 

 

Spears have never really been given a fair shake in traditional fantasy gaming.  A spear is somehow not as romantic as the "long sword," despite the fact that it figured prominently as a heroic weapon in the mythos of many cultures, including the Norse and the Greek, two popular sources of RPG root material.  Historically, the spear was the weapon to field, starting with the Greeks (before that, the club was the primary implement of killing the other guy, while the spear was primarily for hunting).  Rows of tightly packed spearmen was a popular and standard tactic from the earliest phalanxes up through companies of Swiss pikemen and the bayonet charges of the 19th and early 20th centuries.  A spear is simple enough to put into the hands of the greenest peasant levy, and versatile enough to have entire systems of combat based around it (especially by the Chinese).  In a one-on-one fight between a spearman and a swordsman of comparable skill, the spearman is the odds-on favorite to walk away.  Yet in all forms of fantasy gaming from Dungeons and Dragons to the MMORPG systems of Asheron’s Call and Ultima Online, the spear is disregarded as a decent weapon most of the time, and for good reason:  the weapon’s game statictics are always lackluster, always less effective than weapons like the sword.  Why is this?

First look at the predominant advantage of the spear in realistic combat.  A spear in its simplest form is a dagger on the end of a pole.  This was a simple method of increasing the reach of the wielder, allowing him to strike at a longer distance than a dissimilarly armed opponent could counter.  The spear immediately puts an enemy with a smaller weapon on the defensive, while at the same time increasing the wielder’s own defense by the virtue of being out of reach.  This is very important.  A swordsman or other enemy who wants to get to the spearman must first get past the effective range of the spear, which is daunting to say the least, as trying to slip in puts one at great risk of death or grievous injury, both paralyzing possibilities in mortal combat.  The advantage of superior reach led to longer and longer spears, eventually cumulating in the specialized awl pike at around 18 feet or so in length.

This strength becomes even more powerful when applied to mass combat.  A well disciplined line of spearmen all pointing at your line was a serious issue to contend with.  The concept of the spear phalanx was so central to mass combat that shieldbearers were enlisted to protect them.  A shieldbearer is a man whose only job is to plant a tower shield firmly into the ground in front of the spear line to keep enemies from penetrating the line.  The spear phalanx was the only tactic of its day capable of dealing effectively with a charge of heavy horse (archery could also deal significant damage to cavalry if they were not on the move yet).

The big problem with the misrepresentation of the spear in fantasy RPG’s is that there are almost no systems that reflect the power of extended reach in pen and paper, and none at all in MMORPG’s.  The best model of spear combat is in Shogun:  Total War, a strategy game.  Almost universally, the designers of fantasy RPG’s, computer or otherwise, have a vision of dark ages melee combat that comes from watching two actors bash each other with pieces of aluminum at theme restaurants like Medieval Times.  In these cases, the winner is not the one who has a better intrinsic understanding of the attributes of his chosen weapon, he’s the blond guy.

How then can the power of pole weapons be represented in simplistic engines and systems that don’t track the exact x, y, z location of the striking surface?  Engines like the Turbine engine 1.0, and most certainly the UO isometric engine, have no ability to know or care about how many feet and inches an opponent is from his target.  A simple way to reflect the reach advantage in games like this is to assign defensive bonuses to the man with the spear.  The spear is, after all, primarily a defensive weapon, aimed at keeping the enemy far away from the wielder.  In a more advanced model, weapons and techniques could have "reach" parameters assigned, and defense modifiers assigned to the person with the greater reach.  A system like this would also allow for considerations like proper greatswords, pikes, and the absurdity of charging into a battle with a ceremonial punch dagger, but would represent an additional drain on resources and bandwidth, important considerations given current wide area networking technology.

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