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kaiZoq

Spears

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Still, looks a little top heavy, lol.

 

It is, typically Halberds are 2 handed weapons and on the short side of 8 foot. But they offer chopping, cutting, and grappling, but most of all, armor punching, a mounted lancer might have adequate punching power to put a point through heavy armor, but an infantry warrior may not have the thrust, using centrifugal force with a spiked side would allow you to punch almost any armor.

 

The centaur is using it as a cavalry weapon in one hand, so it is a little fantasy, it would make more sense if his shield was higher up his arm like a shoulder or elbow mounted shield so he could put both hands on it, making it a great variety weapon from... Centaur back, being able to do close line and sweeping attacks instead of just thrusts would greatly increase his attack options.

 

A Halberd is perhaps the hardest hitting weapon on the battlefield, it was particularly featured during the heavy armor periods of history.

 

halberd-onhand-large.jpg


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Yeah, in Japan, the spear was regarded as the "king of weapons."  Some of the greatest warriors and Shoguns in their history were spearmen, even if they were "known" for their sword skills (ie, Kamiizumi Ise no Kami Nobutsuna, Yagyu Sekishusai, Iizasa Choisai, Aisu Ikosai, etc).  

 

The biggest problem, like the monster quote from MisterPedantic states, is the lack of RPG ability to correctly use spear.  Novices use spear as expected- stabby stab stab- and have no real concept of distance, timing, and use of the weapon once the opponent has passed the edge of their reach.  This is a problem against a competent swordsman, it's very easy to enter in on someone without a clue with spear.  Also, depending on the weapons being used, you can cut through a spear or staff or any wooden weapon with a strong/sharp enough metal blade.  So how would a game bring the advantages/disadvantages of a spear to a MMO? 

 

This is where the entire "block" mechanic becomes important.  Most every weapon- even a sword knife- can be used to receive attacks.  It may still hurt receiving a sword cut with a knife braced against your arm, but it's better than the sword cutting through your arm.  Tera implemented this somewhat with Lancer and Berserker blocking, but zerker is the better example since they use their great axe as a shield, much like one would with a sword weapon.  I would love to see an active block component to Crowfall, one that doesn't necessarily apply full-on damage elimination but rather real damage mitigation.  That would be the first step in having effective spear combat in the game.  

 

The next step would be to apply distance modifiers to damage dealt.  This keeps with the skilled/active combat mentality the devs seem to go for.  It would requires a few additional hitbox checks when calculating damage, but you could say that if range is X, damage = damage * <multiplier>.  Spear wielders would then get bonuses to attacks at certain distances, rewards for maintaining that skill and awareness.  This would apply to other people as well, where a 2-handed sword user really can't effectively cut someone in the 1-2 foot range and knife users have issue at range.  Don't get me started on archers in melee :)

 

The final step after that would be to customize the archetypes so that they have different "skills" (assuming this is a game where you use abilities like all other MMOs) that can be used depending on their weapon of choice.  GW2 had a system like this.  But with such a system, you can cover dd, cc, etc all through different weapons.  

 

Well, that might not be the final step, but it's all I can think of right now.  Work calls :(


Gaunsaku

Elder, Lords of the Dead

lotd.org

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"hardest hitting"...???

 

lucerne hammer perhaps?

 

lucerne-onhand-large.jpg

 

and as always... Gaunsaku-san types Wisely...

 

lots of good Stuff in this Thread...

 

put me down as a +1 for all kinds of polearms...


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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As someone who's looking to be a crafter, I hope there's a ridiculous amount of weapons to choose from. Spears would be amazing!

 

and here's hoping that they're all viable...

I don't want to see tiers where in the end everyone is using the 100%skill weapon (like SB...)

 

like all the Darksouls screenshots in here. All these weapons were actually viable. sure some were better than others, but it was mostly negligible.

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The next step would be to apply distance modifiers to damage dealt.  This keeps with the skilled/active combat mentality the devs seem to go for.  It would requires a few additional hitbox checks when calculating damage, but you could say that if range is X, damage = damage * <multiplier>.  Spear wielders would then get bonuses to attacks at certain distances, rewards for maintaining that skill and awareness.  This would apply to other people as well, where a 2-handed sword user really can't effectively cut someone in the 1-2 foot range and knife users have issue at range.  Don't get me started on archers in melee :)

 

The final step after that would be to customize the archetypes so that they have different "skills" (assuming this is a game where you use abilities like all other MMOs) that can be used depending on their weapon of choice.  GW2 had a system like this.  But with such a system, you can cover dd, cc, etc all through different weapons.  

 

 

 

Well we know there will be a telegraph system of attacks in the combat engine.  Very simply, different weapons could modify the lengths of the attack telegraph.  A telegraph for a thrusting attack with a sword could look very different than that same thrusting attack but with a spear.  In a game that also includes player model collision detection, this could allow a back rank making attacks between front line blockers.  Very cool.

 

WildStar currently does not do this as there is only one weapon type available per class, so the only variation on the telegraph size and shape is based on the specific abilities.

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Me too I like games using spears, with good animations we can enjoy different gamepay :)

 

In the open post you linked a video of Seirei no Moribito. That's a very good and more or less realistic anime, but it's a japanese way of the spears fight.

The Legionnaire will use spears in a greek way. He will be more stable, and less acrobatic.

 

But with the Frostweaver and her kusarigama-like weapon, I hope they will put more archetypes using weapons in kung-fu ways and style :)

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I'd say Seirei no Moribito is half Japanese, half Chinese.  But same difference.  Western spear is very different, but then the types of armor and the way war was fought was different, too.  

 

Not asking for martial art-like use of weapons, because that's a tall task (even Blade & Soul has some issues there... though I do love beating up people with the kung fu master).  But like Valor asked, can current tech do something like what I mentioned?

 

Yes.  Without much additional work, theoretically.  

 

All models have a "bounding box."  This determines where they end and something else begins.  When doing attacks, you determine if something hits or misses in part of whether the bounding boxes overlap.  Or you could calculate the distance between every object on the screen at the same time, but that's too much computing overhead. Better to go with bounding boxes that fire events of "overlap" (or something) everytime they intersect another box.  Then in the overlap event, you check to see if target is being attacked, call your damage functions, etc.  Projectiles moving in a straight line would be built in this manner as well, I'd imagine.  That arrow you fire creates a moving box that goes until it overlaps another bounding box, kinda like what dev have hinted happening.  

 

Unity, Unreal, CryEngine, etc all have bounding box check functions that are implemented and functions that let you dynamically set the box size.  Using WildStar as an example, the "telegraphs" for attacks are essentially bounding boxes that are rendered on your screen.  The same thing happens in most all games, except without that render happening.  

 

If a spear motion capture volunteer is need, I'd be happy to take a work vacation and lend my body in the name of science/gaming :D

Edited by gaunsaku

Gaunsaku

Elder, Lords of the Dead

lotd.org

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I want spears really badly, but in addition, I want mounts while using spears. I want to ride on a lion and use a spear to attack, then if my mount gets killed as I brush past, I would fly off, get about 3-5 seconds to recover then I go full out Oberyn Martell. Cause you know, he assaulted her, he murdered her, he killed her children.

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Two hands on a weapon means you spend time blocking with the weapon, if you have a spear and shield, you just block with little effort with one hand and strike with the other.

 

I think Oberyn used spear and shield in the book, while Macedonian Phalanx used 12 foot infantry spears.

 

Short two handed polearms are usually deploying more utility like a Halberd.

 

new-polearm-thumbs.jpg

The Macedonian phalynx used 6 m pikes, that's over 18' long.

I've heard of 16' lances used in medieval Europe.

Spear length is important when formations collide because the longer spears should be able to hit first.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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"hardest hitting"...???

 

lucerne hammer perhaps?

 

lucerne-onhand-large.jpg

 

and as always... Gaunsaku-san types Wisely...

 

lots of good Stuff in this Thread...

 

put me down as a +1 for all kinds of polearms...

 

 

both of those examples isolate 2 features which were typically both seen on halberds, axe blade on one side, and spike on the other, and typically had about the same weight, the axe is just flattened out into a blade rather than a blunt hammer. overall, I'd always take the spike and axe over any other combination, the hammer just doesn't drive like the spike and the blade offers enough chop to take off a limb, the pole hammer isn't very attractive really >.<

 

Beyond that, I'm not super interested in seeing length wars with a spear focus, chances are, we will only see a few archetypes with spears, and the game has a lot of other elements to explore beyond real combat, like magic, flight, and the natural features as well like shields, projectiles, and strategy. Super long spears work almost exclusively in formation, so having an archetype field a super long spear which can't really play dynamically like other weapons is gonna get kinda boring and silly, at best, it might be interesting to see fantasy attacks where the spear reaches out further, but at that point they may as well throw it and magically retrieve it, or pull another one out of a magic bag.

 

On spears breaking, I've never seen a spear break in one strike, at least not from a sword. And before anyone says it's perfectly possible... exit all movie references and test cuts vs a spear braced on a hard surface, when a person is holding a weapon, no matter how hard you hit, it's only being held in place by 2 human arms which are going to give, maybe one. Matt Eastern claims that it typically takes 3 strikes to the same location in order to break a typical spear, and while they break way easier than swords, it's not like swords didn't break on the battlefield, which is saying a lot since they were typically deployed after a primary weapon. Emphasis on weapons breaking as a game mechanic isn't really that interesting gameplay wise as I'd percieve it, if at all, virtually all weapons would have to have a breaking point, and wear with use and abuse, with the sword being on the lower end of the breaking spectrum.

 

Well, somethings come up, can't sink further in on the topic :)


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I really like spears, just not the 20 foot-long ones. Something that is longer than sword, but can be still swung around easily. Like Oberyn's spear. As for spear breaking, they could a implement a simple durability system and make spears less durable than swords. If they set their durability low enough, we will see spears breaking in the middle of combat, unless it's made by an expert crafter, using the best resources.

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I really like spears, just not the 20 foot-long ones. Something that is longer than sword, but can be still swung around easily. Like Oberyn's spear. As for spear breaking, they could a implement a simple durability system and make spears less durable than swords. If they set their durability low enough, we will see spears breaking in the middle of combat, unless it's made by an expert crafter, using the best resources.

 

If we are going as short as 8-10 feet for a regular spear, there's no reason why it can't be made of a composite, magical material or even metal and be nearly as impervious. I don't know what kind of materials they will offer in the game, but Mythril is light and sturdy. Given that they probably won't blunt every sword slash vs steel armor and force players to thrust at everything in plate, there's no reason why spear durability needs to be scrutinized... Though we are likely to see a lot of spear sweep attacks if they get spears into play :P


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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