fishdix

Twitch Streaming- Sniping

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54 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Use the behavior of your enemy to your advantage.

Such is the art of war. Sun Tzu would be proud of you. :)

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7 hours ago, fishdix said:

I can't make a stream of waiting for a team of people to hopefully not get trounced. I'd sooner watch someone try and hunt down a streamer.

 

5 hours ago, fishdix said:

As much as I love the "find a group of people to defend me or bait people" strategy... I really don't.

Fair enough. My first thought when I suggested it was just 'wouldn't it be funny if...'. My second thought too was that it would be a buttload of work just to die on stream anyway.

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Posted (edited)

"Stream Sniping" is a problem streamers create for themselves, and it is their own responsibility to deal with the consequences of their actions.

If you don't want people to have these advantages  over you in a PvP game, stop literally broadcasting your activities to the entire internet.

It is not the developer's responsibility to fix your poor decisions.

Stop coating yourself in honey and hanging out in the woods and then complaining you get mauled by a bear.

Edited by PopeUrban

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You are right. But you should also want the game to be streamed...it helps the game.

Many other games tackle this same issue, but to take the stance that NOTHING can be done is downright ignorant, in my opinion. You fail to see the correlation between streams and a game's success and I cannot convince you as such without going through many case examples. I imagine the devs would agree and would like to see people streaming the game as well. DayZ got most of its exposure from streamers and faced similar issues. Epic games is SUING people for stream sniping. Some devs don't care or do anything. It's up to the dev to state their stance.

I was hoping people would see that I'm less complaining and more trying to find a solution to helping the game be seen, while not changing it at the same time.

Requesting things like a mini map option vs a full screen option is entirely reasonable, in my opinion. I like solutions and while I agree with your points, they seem to be coming from a player rather than someone looking for the game to succeed. 

To assume that a game has a great chance of success without a stream community is to take a large gamble. 

I'll give this some closer...I'm sure someone who knows one of the devs has seen this thread. 

You are right. I was stupid to stream the game. 

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34 minutes ago, fishdix said:

You are right. But you should also want the game to be streamed...it helps the game.

Many other games tackle this same issue, but to take the stance that NOTHING can be done is downright ignorant, in my opinion. You fail to see the correlation between streams and a game's success and I cannot convince you as such without going through many case examples. I imagine the devs would agree and would like to see people streaming the game as well. DayZ got most of its exposure from streamers and faced similar issues. Epic games is SUING people for stream sniping. Some devs don't care or do anything. It's up to the dev to state their stance.

I was hoping people would see that I'm less complaining and more trying to find a solution to helping the game be seen, while not changing it at the same time.

Requesting things like a mini map option vs a full screen option is entirely reasonable, in my opinion. I like solutions and while I agree with your points, they seem to be coming from a player rather than someone looking for the game to succeed. 

To assume that a game has a great chance of success without a stream community is to take a large gamble. 

I'll give this some closer...I'm sure someone who knows one of the devs has seen this thread. 

You are right. I was stupid to stream the game. 

Streaming or the lack therof should not be a consideration when developing a game. Games are built to be played first. The cottage industry of making them spectator sports came to be without people attempting to design for it, and will continue without attempting to design for it either.

Compromising or altering a game's design to make it easier to stream or spectate as an esport is a waste of developer resources.

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

Streaming or the lack therof should not be a consideration when developing a game. Games are built to be played first. The cottage industry of making them spectator sports came to be without people attempting to design for it, and will continue without attempting to design for it either.

Compromising or altering a game's design to make it easier to stream or spectate as an esport is a waste of developer resources.

That's a bit too blanket.  Some games are designed for streaming, some are not.  Some games need to build mechanics around being good to stream as a marketing strategy, others do not.

I think crowfall is in a weird place that way actually.  I think if you could get an awesome, cinematic camera as a third person who does not have an account in the campaign, some of the siege stuff may be awesome to watch, especially if that mode did not include the toasts and hp/floaters. 

But harvesting, and general player hunting.  I think there might be too many gaps in the action for it to work as a live stream.  

Recorded, edited, and then highlights posted to youtube, that could work.  No worries about stream snipers in that case.

 

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Hmmm ... I would find out who the enemies of the 3 people who attacked you are.  Then just continue streaming and when you see your snipers in game, get your new friends to help you out.  If you are being killed what you need is a little protection.  Even if your new friends are not online it just gets your snipers used to killing you.  That way they will be salivated and chomping at the bit when your friends are on.

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20 hours ago, fishdix said:

if you've noticed a trend with open world pvp games and twitch etc...its that they typically die. In 2018, twitch is almost vital to the success of a game. 

To assume that a game has a great chance of success without a stream community is to take a large gamble. 

To this day, every pvp mmo has failed to produce a community on twitch.

How many PVP MMOs have there been in the last few years? At least open world ones that had any chance to begin with?

Ablion Online did fairly well in relation to the game's popularity/size and both Twitch views and game pretty much fell off together that was game issues, not lack of streams.

MMOs simply aren't that engaging/entertaining and beyond having a very popular streamer plugging it, they aren't going to do any better. At any given time, there is probably one Fortnite streamer (besides Ninja) with more viewers than all the MMOs on twitch combined or dang close.

20 hours ago, fishdix said:
  • have a minimap option rather than a full screen one which streamers can block, like we can currently block the chat and location during alpha.
  • diverse terrains
  • The fog of war
  • reset,
  • much bigger map
  • many more people
  • many campaigns
  • new campaigns rather than existing ones, 
  • not maxed players vs new players.

These are all great ideas and most will come as the game develops. They aren't going to add them in tomorrow to please a couple people that stream. Currently it's like playing hide n seek in a backyard and getting annoyed people find you in 5 seconds. It sucks for now and either have to deal with it or wait for a more stream friendly setting.

As I hope all of the UI is free to customize at least in size/location, maybe they could have the map be shrunk down and or moved so that a streamer with a bit of know how could work something up that when they hit "M" or whatever, a popup blocks that portion of the screen only for viewers. I've seen such things done.

Also would like to see campaigns where there is a limit on how trained one can be to allow newer players a chance to learn/play with equals.

20 hours ago, fishdix said:

Speaking about cheating and TOS is a slippery slope

They then proceed to say in global "maybe don't stream the game, because you're poorly made socks". Not only admitting to sniping me, but calling me poorly made socks, after they teamed me at a MASSIVE advantage.

In pre-alpha, however, its simply not good content to watch or stream if that will be happening. I imagine the devs do not want this type of toxic borderline-harassment for the kicks. Its an over-abuse in a tiny unbalanced test environment where people are trying to help give a new game exposure...not a launched game. 

I'm all for games having a TOS that says "play nice, don't snipe," but in reality, it is hard to police in an open world game. However, if someone is streaming and the same players magically continue to find them, report. We do play in a world where streaming is common place and companies should make use of it (as ACE has). Ignoring even a small steaming community doesn't really create much positive PR for current/future customers.

Talking trash or going above and beyond is something else and should be dealt with, again, report. They locked the forums down fairly well and I am curious to see how this works out in-game with a much larger population that is harder to filter/track/report/etc. Hopefully they draw a line that leaves room for some personality, but not so much that people log out and don't come back due to folks that find too much pleasure in making others feel poorly.

 

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, I suppose I'm looking for something that might not be found. I believe that Albion was a fairly easy game to stream without being sniped, but it was so segmented and you were always a few feet away from an easy exit. Additionally all the terrain looks very similar in that game so its difficult to tell them apart. Yes, the game failed hard in many ways...not related to streaming...all related to the game itself; but they got my money years ago LOL.

The more I think about it the more I realize its a silly game to attempt to stream. Why would my guild want me to stream? Why would my faction want me to stream? This is a game that is very strategic and group focused and giving away valuable information is very stupid and costly. 

There are certainly ways to stream the game but overall it's a bad idea. 

On the point of MMOs being bad for streaming, I'll fully agree...with some exceptions MMOs are super niche and even moreso when it comes to streaming. 

As for trash-talking...meh. I mean, I like people being able to have fun and I'll leave that up to the devs. I won't report anyone for using bad words...the people who do this type of stuff are not in the wrong in any way, imo. Trash talking in global or whatever will have to be moderated or dealt with by devs ahead of time, because it will obviously happen. 

The MAGIC solution would be: figure out a way to delay the game-play by 10 minutes...but keep the audio/camera LIVE. That would solve everything, but that technology is crazy to implement.

I guess I just wish it was a great game to stream, because I spend a lot of time streaming and I was looking to make it possible. Rust and Dayz have done some awesome things to allow streaming but not break the pvp. BOTH those games, however, are not Throne simulator conquest group/faction based pvp games, so they really aren't a great comparison example.

Thanks for being a group of level-headed people. I do not believe a dev should intervene with stream sniping (maybe make a few tweaks and allowances for configurations for streamers) and I fully encourage you to stream-snipe everyone (myself included if I stream again) and kill each other a lot. I'll be trying to figure out an "ideal" way to stream the game and I think it will also be amazing for youtube. 

Peace,

Dave

Edited by fishdix

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

That's a bit too blanket.  Some games are designed for streaming, some are not.  Some games need to build mechanics around being good to stream as a marketing strategy, others do not.

I think crowfall is in a weird place that way actually.  I think if you could get an awesome, cinematic camera as a third person who does not have an account in the campaign, some of the siege stuff may be awesome to watch, especially if that mode did not include the toasts and hp/floaters. 

But harvesting, and general player hunting.  I think there might be too many gaps in the action for it to work as a live stream.  

Recorded, edited, and then highlights posted to youtube, that could work.  No worries about stream snipers in that case.

 

Unless twitch integration is central to the actual game design (there are some games what actually use this as a feature and that's really interesting) there's no reason to spend development time on it IMO. Games don't become popular because people stream them. Streamers become popular because they play popular games or have interesting personalities and commentary. If a game is popular, streamers naturally want to stream it for more views. If a popular streamer has already done the legwork its in a developers best interests to promote that streamer.

However, altering the TOS (like a "no sniping" clause) is easily abusable for competitive advantage. If I've made a few nemeses who have made a habit of tracking me down and killing me, well heck, I can just start streaming and claim they're sniping me. Now I'm wasting some CSR's time on frivolous nonsense that they can't conclusively prove or disprove.

Similarly, trying to spend your development time on enabling streaming specifically is just a bad use of your budget. Streamers didn't need your help to make twitch what it is, and they don't need your help to stream your game now either. GW2 tried really damn hard to do with with esports and failed because its game simply wasn't popular. Planetside 2 literally made a completely different GAME to try and chase those spectator dollars and wasted a ton of development time in the process, again failing to meet any objectives.

I'm not saying people shouldn't stream, nor am I saying that streaming can't be useful in a marketing capacity. I'm saying that streamers and developers have the same sort of relationship as a reporter and a fireman. The fireman's job is to put out fires. The reporter's job is to report on the fires. Changing a game specifically to make it more easily streamable is very much like changing the way you put out fires to make your fire department more popular for the annual fundraiser.

That's not so say some things that happen to help streamers aren't goo ideas sometimes. For instance, I think a minimap for crowfall is a much needed qol feature in general terms. I'd love a shadowbane style demo recording and playback feature (and in general "replay" functionality in games is both useful for players and for community marketing via youtube in general so its a win/win) Some games are naturally more suited for streaming just because of how they're built, obviously.

I'm saying that a game being more easily spectated via streaming or youtube or whatever shouldn't even be a consideration if it impacts the actual gameplay of your game unless your game depends on streaming to function. Most games do not. Marketing shouldnt really interfere with your game's design. Marketing's job is to sell the game, not design it. A Streamer's job is to become e-famous through their own production skills and content selection, not to design games.

I really don't think we need people more interested in using games as a platform for their own personal edification, be they professional e-athletes or other "influencers", dictating design decisions when the entire purpose of most games is to be fun for the people playing them, not for the people watching them or the people using them to make a buck. Sure there's crossover. Sure there's nothing wrong with trying to be e-famous. However games should be designed first and foremost around their core audience, and in most cases that means the core audience is the people installing the game and actually playing it, not the people broadcasting their game play for others to watch.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Posted (edited)

as the best contrast:

how is streaming either done or viewed as in the Eve online community?

Edited by Tinnis

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

as the best contrast:

how is streaming either done or viewed as in the Eve online community?

Most EVE streamers do it with a heavy delay and do the usual blocking out of chat. Those that don't delay get sniped and laughed at in their own chat for doing a dumb thing in a game that loves to punish people for doing dumb things.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Just now, PopeUrban said:

Most EVE streamers do it with a heavy delay and do the usual blocking out of chat.

and what is the community side of it e.g. do corps have a "no stream" policy of membership - do people typically also try to stream snipe alot etc

like for instance if i look to the unofficial classic freeshard of Dark Age of Camelot - uthgard - the developers have a blanket policy that anyone who is partaking in Realm vs Realm fighting must have a minimum of a 15 minute stream delay etc

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Just now, Tinnis said:

and what is the community side of it e.g. do corps have a "no stream" policy of membership - do people typically also try to stream snipe alot etc

like for instance if i look to the unofficial classic freeshard of Dark Age of Camelot - uthgard - the developers have a blanket policy that anyone who is partaking in Realm vs Realm fighting must have a minimum of a 15 minute stream delay etc

Streaming limitations are generally a matter of corp opsec. People have been dropped from corporations for streaming when they shouldn't have been even if nothing actually happened because giving away free intel to the entire internet in a risk heavy environment like EVE is a huge risk for your corpmates. Loose lips sink ships and all that. CCP in general doesn't interfere with players beyond the rules of the game itself, the only exceptions being if there's a known exploit they haven't fixed yet that's in live that they specifically ban.

Its also worth noting that EVE's general aesthetic of empty space can make it very difficult to actually tell where someone is and live streaming can be done safely in some cases simply by blocking out the system name you're in and being aware of blocking out when you're opening a map or anything that would give away your location. Wormhole streamers will go live a lot of the time for instance because just looking at the screen it is often impossible to tell excatly where they are, or because even if you know where they are the randomized nature of wormholes makes it virtually impossible to get there without having a path already scouted.

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, fishdix said:

The MAGIC solution would be: figure out a way to delay the game-play by 10 minutes...but keep the audio/camera LIVE. That would solve everything, but that technology is crazy to implement.

i may just be a simple youtube old man that lacks the internet bandwidth and understanding of that there twitch voodoo [and the desire to shove ones own face into view]...

but could you:

set up two seperate twitch streams on your computer - one is your camera in real time [and direct people to chat here?], while the other is your delayed gameplay.

then direct people to mush them together via http://www.multitwitch.tv/

[or a similar alternative service]

Edited by Tinnis

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15 hours ago, fishdix said:

bigger maps/servers,

more campaigns,

more people, 

new campaigns rather than existing ones, 

not maxed players vs new players.

All of this stuff is coming at a later date. Even the very last item has been discussed to have "noob" campaigns where vessel level and/or skill training is capped. 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Best stream snipe in Crowfall so far still belongs to @facerip

https://clips.twitch.tv/SweetPrettiestIguanaLitFam

(credit to @Tinnis for digging up this gem). 

disagree. the one below wins that title, despite not being an intentional snipe :P

[YUMX POV] https://www.twitch.tv/videos/221896226

[MARKEEDRAGON POV] https://clips.twitch.tv/CleanPeacefulPancakeHassanChop

Edited by Tinnis

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8 hours ago, fishdix said:

This is a game that is very strategic and group focused and giving away valuable information is very stupid and costly. 

Now that's the most accurate thing you've said thus far!

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