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Twitch Streaming- Sniping


fishdix
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So I adore this game and am 3 days brand new. I'm a small streamer who believes in this game and am very happy with its progression. I decided to give a LOT of my free time to provide exposure to Crowfall and stream it. I apologize for the lengthy post, but I just want this game to succeed and if you've noticed a trend with open world pvp games and twitch etc...its that they typically die. In 2018, twitch is almost vital to the success of a game. I've probably sold 12 copies of the game in the 3 days I've streamed.

I believe that the positive exposure of this game can outweigh the negative and provide huge benefit. I also believe that we can combat some of the major faults in pvp MMO games and their ability to be streamed. To this day, every pvp mmo has failed to produce a community on twitch. The situation that happened today might very well be a paying player who does not believe in the game and wants to poison it and destroy it from within. They might simply be a jerk...but it brings to light the situation and how we can perhaps provide a solution to streamers and our pvp game.

3 days new, in a pre-alpha game...On a tiny map...that they know well...I'm ganked by not 1 but 3 people fully skilled and geared. Fine. They then proceed to say in global "maybe don't stream the game, because you're poorly made socks". Not only admitting to sniping me, but calling me poorly made socks, after they teamed me at a MASSIVE advantage.

We had a lengthy discussion following the incident about what is considered cheating, toxicity, acts against the developer, intentions to hurt the game, simple pvp games where there aren't any rules. There were many sides on the issue. Here is mine: We can't stop this from happening and shouldn't try and police it. I DO believe that behavior like this is DISGUSTING and it would turn almost everyone off. The game has almost no people and to call someone trash after you took an advantage and destroyed them while they were trying to give their free time to promote your game...that's just plain rotten, imo. But whatever...I'm just a dude who can stream another game. I do, however, believe this game is worth more and perhaps we can help encourage streamers to get involved. Here are 2 solutions and hopefully there are many more.

1. have a minimap option rather than a full screen one which streamers can block, like we can currently block the chat and location during alpha.

2. have LOTS of difficult to distinguish and diverse terrains that make it more difficult to determine where on the map a person is...thereby giving a streamer SOMEWHAT of an advantage.

I don't mean to cry or stop sniping and I don't expect people to be able to have an easy time while streaming...I just want to encourage the opportunity for people to be able to give this game the exposure it deserves. Speaking about cheating and TOS is a slippery slope and I'd rather just assume that people will do anything, even if it ruins the gameplay of other people, which is against the TOS. How ACE regulates this is not really my concern and I say fair game to everyone, if that's what everyone wants. The fog of war, reset, much bigger map, many more people, many campaigns SHOULD encourage options and I'm just trying to look towards those.

Maybe there are other things we can do as well. 

That's all I've got so far. There are no pve safehavens other than a potential exciting EK dust grind or some armor knitting with grandma streamberg.

Hopefully you can see where I'm coming from. I'm not even sure if/how I can continue to stream the game so this is moreso for the future and to bring it up...I think this is worthy at looking at, because I'd hate to see this become a wasteland on twitch. 

 

Thank you,

Dave

PS>  A swear word was auto-edited to "poorly made socks"

Edited by fishdix
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That sucks that you got targeted because they could see your location from the stream. 

Maybe you could act as a lure for well geared peeps on your faction and they could gank the griefers? That would be lolworthy. Could backfire if your faction doesn't win though. But thats a whole lot of organisation outside of the streaming time, I guess any typed chat would give you away.

Otherwise might have to wait until you are geared and grouped to stream. Hang in there, I hope it improves.

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Well, 

i think, this will always append, but to mitigate, you should : 

  • hide exact location,
  • hide the compass
  • hide the fort name
  • hide the chat

if it's not enought : 

  • add delay
  • play in group

their is no absolute solution.

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I've been saying it from the beginning but I really don't think Crowfall is going to be a good streaming game. There's going to be a lot of down time and a good chunk of the game is going to be about preparing for fights rather than actually doing them. 

If for whatever reason a streamer does blow up playing Crowfall they're going to get trolled and griefed into oblivion. Imagine someone like Sodapoppin streaming Crowfall...a game with physics and full loot PvP. Most of the big streamers have a hard time streaming anything that isn't instance based without getting trolled endlessly. I hope I'm wrong but coming from someone who's got some experience in this department I really don't see it happening.

I don't think a game has to be a Twitch phenomenon to be successful. Unfortunately what makes Crowfall so awesome makes it a horrible game for streaming.

I do think Crowfall will make for some AWESOME videos though. 

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I streamed earlier this year, running around with my guildies, the biggest problem I had was lack of content.

I will probably stream again in the future, but so far it's still lacking win conditions, meaning it's pointless taking forts because you don't really gain anything.

Never had a problem with stream sniping, but I guess I'm an exception.

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My Twitch - My Youtube - Apply to Vanguard HERE!

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@fishdix i have no sympathy, but i have suggestions.

hide:

- compass

- 'zone name' area

- map co-ordinate area

WqCvLEt.png

- a stream delay of your choosing [a few minutes or whatever]

and then i saw our streaming buddy @Shadiz has a neat solution for the world map - he has bound his streaming software to change the stream to just focus on his face camera rather than the game when he opens up his world map screen [via the same key or something?]

but yea, people could still find you with the above given the size of the map if they really wanted to.

Edited by Tinnis
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Welcome to Crowfall, Fishdix.

I disagree with many of your conclusions, which by their very nature as those of someone who by their own admission is '3 days new' are suspect, but I do share your opinion of stream-sniping as being something dishonorable and generally lame. Some of my own guild-mates are of a contrary opinion however and sniping will always exist, neither ACE nor anyone but the streamer themselves can nor should feel they need to do anything to prevent it.

I do not believe the sniping of streamers specifically or lack of a presence on Twitch in general will hurt Crowfall unduly, though I do think it can help and often spend a fair amount of my own free time supporting streamers of CF and getting the word out about them. Crowfall is the kind of niche game that will find it's audience organically, and while it having a presence on Twitch can certainly increase the number of copies sold, it is not going to impact the game's profile very much, not as much as word of mouth will. Crowfall is simply not a very stream-friendly game, except for certain specific activities, and that reduces it's value as content on a platform such as Twitch.

I also don't feel that being sniped is exclusively the cause of the experiences you described of being ganked, outnumbered and poorly made socks-talked. These things are inherent in a modern online PVP game, and even more so in an open-world sandbox environment such as Crowfall, especially in the context of the smaller, activity-lacking test phase. It is in fact the goal of players in this game to kill the enemy players as soon as possible by any means necessary, to disrupt harvesting and crafting efforts - to slow down the enemy war machine - and finding people out in the world doing these activities is both the norm and quite easy once you know what you are doing. Of course streaming and being sniped makes this easier, but it's going to happen regardless; streaming or not streaming.

Your bringing up the TOS is an absurdity and I will not comment further on it.

There are many suggestions regarding things you can do to make it more difficult for the people trying to snipe you, some of which you are obviously aware of and already doing, and others you perhaps have not considered. I suggest you keep in mind that in release, things will be far different than they are now and this will be far less of an issue. I think you make too many dire proclamations based on your negative but limited experience with Crowfall in this context and over-estimate the importance of Twitch to Crowfall's success. Some of us have been waiting for this game for almost a decade and a half, we have roots and branches that extend throughout the gaming world, literally reaching tens of thousands of gamers...CF, if worthy of it, will do just fine without you and those who stream if necessary.

We DO want people to stream however, but please don't try to change what Crowfall is, or chastise what the people who play it do, to suit your personal endeavors or preference. Crowfall is, whether some people who have somehow found their way to it know it or not, a hardcore PvP 'Throne War Simulator'...if you know nothing about it's Shadowbane lineage and what that entails, consider then the choice of the devs to reference Game of Thrones with this marketing angle, and all the things done in that throne war...stream sniping and being ganked will be the least of it once we get going...

In this game, there will be the players, and there will be the crushed. That is how it is intended. You won't change that.

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I think most of the sniping that goes on right now is just because population is low and it can be hard to find ANYONE to fight. 3 geared people killing a fresh noob and then calling them "poorly made socks" is pretty lame though. 

Some things you can stream safely in Crowfall, others you cannot. 

As EK's become more feature complete you may find people streaming in those where they can control the experience. 

As for the campaign worlds, streaming in an open world PVP MMORPG with item loot without a significant delay is just asking for it IMO. You can and will be sniped. For the most part I do not like to even be in the same group as someone who is streaming because it gives away lots of tactical advantage (numbers, classes, position, etc.) to anyone watching. The few times I have grouped with someone who was streaming I played under the assumption the entire server population was watching the stream and was preparing to snipe us. The point OF streaming was to GET SNIPED because we wanted a fight.

Using Shadowplay to create youtube highlight videos is more interesting IMO. As @Zybak pointed out there's a lot of downtime between the action in Crowfall. I find it a lot more interesting to watch youtube videos of Crowfall than streams for this reason.

Not sure if this helps you or not but this is the current streaming reality as I see it. 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

YouTube - Twitch - Guild

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I try not to troll these boards, I really try not to call people out on the hogwash here but this post has me eye twitching about to stroke. 

 

You cant possibly feel so entitled to broadcasting your life that you think it’s more important that the tactical advantage of not telling the enemy what you’re doing.  You can’t possibly be that naive...

 

Also, don’t play the damn game by yourself.  If you don’t have a guild with dedicated gathering/crafting players then you will never be a valuable pvp asset.  Get some friends, find a guild, make a guild, form an alliance; stop trying to solo groups of players with every advantage they could possibly have and then crying about it.  If you can’t handle some light trash talk then you’re in for a world of pain once people start losing assets that they spent months building or you spent months building and it takes your enemy less than 8 hours to burn. 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Hey Fish, as you know I am a streamer for crowfall

I also have been stream sniped but not to bothered by it due to the fact that I have advanced gear and when I am streaming it is to bring pvp. I do all my harvesting for ores ect off stream and mostly pvp on stream. Though I do understand the side from where your coming from, you are trying to show off the game to get new players to come and take a look. I think there is a lot of interest into the game but maybe due to the low amount of videos on youtube people are just waiting to see what happens. You are trying to show players what to do when they start off on crowfall, which is quiet difficult to begin as soon as you leave the beach head. This game is all about playing in groups/guilds its very difficult to play as a solo player, that why I tend to play classes that can stealth easily if I get attacked.

 

I have some plans to counter stream snipers in the future (soft Launch as I don't want them to know about it till then)

 

 

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2 hours ago, Anthrage said:

I disagree with many of your conclusions, which by their very nature as those of someone who by their own admission is '3 days new' are suspect, but I do share your opinion of stream-sniping as being something dishonorable and generally lame. Some of my own guild-mates are of a contrary opinion however and sniping will always exist, neither ACE nor anyone but the streamer themselves can nor should feel they need to do anything to prevent it.

I do not share this opinion. I find nothing “dishonorable” about accepting an invitation to pvp with someone...especially with someone who is broadcasting their pvp encounters without the knowledge or consent of their opponents. If I volunteer my time to willingly engage in pvp with someone who is broadcasting those encounters and is trying to get views/followers/donations from those encounters...and I do so without any expectation of sharing in those revenue streams...I would think a sincere and heartfelt “thank you” would be in order. 

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That’s a good point.  He should be splitting his contributions with those helping him share the game. 

I wonder what the consent laws for video are on this.  I didn’t consent to being the video.  Please blur my character.  

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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https://crowfall.com/en/travian/rules-of-conduct/

Quote

Remember: Be respectful and courteous to others in our forums

In-Game Rules of Conduct

Crowfall is a game centered on immersive group and faction-based PvP conflict. Therefore, it is to be expected that players will be entrenched in a hard-hitting, ferociously competitive in-game experience. In the midst of winning and losing, emotions can and will run high.

It is also to be expected that certain other aspects of conflict, including espionage and betrayal, will feature heavily in the tactics employed by players. So long as such activities are undertaken within the parameters set forth by the Terms & Conditions and this Forum Rules of Conduct —meaning that no exploits or other abuses of Travian Games's rules and policies occur— it is considered appropriate play.

Specifically, the elements below are allowed in-game, so long as the context is within the in-game conflict:

    ridicule, mock, taunt, stalk, threaten, harass, betray, scam, intimidate or abuse

NOTE:

    No elements of speech related to race, ethnicity, religion, country of origin and/or lifestyle preference are allowed in-game.

    If any of these behaviors/actions can be reasonably seen to be directed or intended outside of the in-game roleplaying context, the Rules of Conduct will apply.

    All other prohibited behaviors, such as using exploits or making real world threats (as noted in the General Rules of Conduct) are still considered actionable offenses and may result in disciplinary action against your game account.

In consideration of the in-game atmosphere we anticipate, we will be more lenient on language used within the game world. Players will have the option of tuning out harsh language or communication by specific players by using the Chat Filter and/or Ignore function.

 

Edited by Tinnis
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cuse words are auto changed. it was better than putting up asterisks. it was put in as a joke but requested it stay. I'm hoping ACE adds this into the in game chat!

others have touched on the topic already but i'll state them again for exposure.

 

  • get in a group! you'll have more fun and so will the viewers.
  • delay the stream. even 1 minute is enough.
  • it's pre-alpha. at least you're learning about the stream delay now and not when the game is released.

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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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Can you do a decent David Attenborough impersonation?  Something about prey being stalked and killed in the grasslands of wrath for the viewership of people from their homes...

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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3 hours ago, Deathadder said:

Hey Fish, as you know I am a streamer for crowfall

I also have been stream sniped but not to bothered by it due to the fact that I have advanced gear and when I am streaming it is to bring pvp. I do all my harvesting for ores ect off stream and mostly pvp on stream. Though I do understand the side from where your coming from, you are trying to show off the game to get new players to come and take a look. I think there is a lot of interest into the game but maybe due to the low amount of videos on youtube people are just waiting to see what happens. You are trying to show players what to do when they start off on crowfall, which is quiet difficult to begin as soon as you leave the beach head. This game is all about playing in groups/guilds its very difficult to play as a solo player, that why I tend to play classes that can stealth easily if I get attacked.

 

I have some plans to counter stream snipers in the future (soft Launch as I don't want them to know about it till then)

 

 

ive stream sniped deathadders once, but i told him i was coming and was outnumbered 3v1

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I have a "Players as powerful AI monsters" suggestion running in the development partners section.  That game mode might be perfect to stream to, because in that mode you would actually want people to try to hunt you.

As a streamer, would that idea appeal to you? Roaming around the land as a powerful critter, looking for tasty people to eat.

 

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