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Amet

the time bank should not be a thing.

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I hear people say in the full release it will take 45 years to fill out the skill tree. that's entirely unacceptable even if you're only going for part of the tree.

a better idea for a more even skill tree is you are allocated a maximum amount of points to put in trees and these points are added to everyone equally as the campaign progresses. players can't get everything and this way the trees can be buffed up more to assist certain builds and give more than generic stats while keeping the field level. it would also serve to emphasise the heavier focus on pvp and resource wars as the campaign progresses through seasons.

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or if you don't like the idea of everyone getting the same points you can make it so it's the maxmium allowed points and players build up to that by leveling or something.

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The 45 years is an exaggeration. A lot of the training you will do will provide horizontal progression rather than vertical progression. Training in Runecrafting isn't going to help me be a better Blacksmith. Training in Underfoot isn't going to make my Fae more powerful. So there are caps on training, in a way. You can only grow in power to a point.

They have plans for catch up mechanics (skill tomes) so that people who join the game late can train faster. Skills are only one facet of player progression. Gear, disciplines, vessels, player skill and tactics, diplomacy and logistics. They will all impact player success.

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2 hours ago, Amet said:

I hear people say in the full release it will take 45 years to fill out the skill tree. that's entirely unacceptable even if you're only going for part of the tree.

I have to disagree with the premise, if Im understanding what you mean.  You should not be trying to complete everything in every skill tree.   The skills set up requires us to make choices.  Do you want to focus on combat, or on crafting, or whatever?   

If  you're combat focused, then you contribute those skills to your guild and have to rely on the crafters to keep you set up with gear.   If you focus on harvesting, you have to rely on your guild's combat specialists to keep you safe while you gather.

It will be, and should be, very hard to solo in CF.


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You may misunderstand how the trees work. Trees have nothing to do with campaigns. Tree progress is consistant from the moment your start your account. In the future players will be able to bind unwanted skill points in to tomes which other players can consume to catch up to (but not surpass, as there will be a cap) day one veterans, giving players the choice of continuing to train to max out the entire tree or only skilling the roles they care about and then using the skill points as a passive income source in stead.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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2 hours ago, Amet said:

I hear people say in the full release it will take 45 years to fill out the skill tree. that's entirely unacceptable even if you're only going for part of the tree.

a better idea for a more even skill tree is you are allocated a maximum amount of points to put in trees and these points are added to everyone equally as the campaign progresses. players can't get everything and this way the trees can be buffed up more to assist certain builds and give more than generic stats while keeping the field level. it would also serve to emphasise the heavier focus on pvp and resource wars as the campaign progresses through seasons.

If you mean per campaign training, I'm all for that idea. Crowfall's strength is diverse ways to go about things.

Having campaigns that provide upfront pools of points to spend, start everyone blank and go faster through training, or whatever mechanic seem possible with what they have.

Could have an overall permanent training system like current that applies to normal campaigns, then a separate system for individual campaigns with different rules. Maybe it's overly complicated, but I don't know why it would be.

As is, older accounts will be stronger be it direct power or with more options which is the flip side of the same coin. I don't see how new players are going to come in and easily obtain tomes to train up and "catch up" as the devs intend for the system to do. Having alternate modes/campaigns could go along way to welcoming new players and making the game more accessible while they training slowly in the background or gather enough tomes to "catch up" to whatever point.

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2 hours ago, Amet said:

I hear people say in the full release it will take 45 years to fill out the skill tree. that's entirely unacceptable even if you're only going for part of the tree.

a better idea for a more even skill tree is you are allocated a maximum amount of points to put in trees and these points are added to everyone equally as the campaign progresses. players can't get everything and this way the trees can be buffed up more to assist certain builds and give more than generic stats while keeping the field level. it would also serve to emphasise the heavier focus on pvp and resource wars as the campaign progresses through seasons.

If that's the way you feel, then you backed the wrong game. Passive EvE like training has been part of the design the rest of us have put quite a considerable amount of investment in to see tried. 

Is it perfect? nope.  Does it have problems? Yup.  Could there be a better way? Maybe.  Should we keep suggesting improvements to it? You bet we should.

But it is what every person putting money into this has backed, so simply saying it's unacceptable is provably false.  It was acceptable enough for those of us who understood it as being a core part of the intent of the design, and to put our money up to see it built.

No way your going to see it removed now, at least not before it's been tired out for real for several months.  

I do like the idea of campaigns with a different training plan. The problem is the amount of work it would require to isolate training by them.  I'm sure they don't think the "Juice would be worth the squeeze", at least not until after they have problems with the original plans.

Perfect design is a moving target, they will adjust where necessary.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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3 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

If that's the way you feel, then you backed the wrong game. Passive EvE like training has been part of the design the rest of us have put quite a considerable amount of investment in to see tried. 

Is it perfect? nope.  Does it have problems? Yup.  Could there be a better way? Maybe.  Should we keep suggesting improvements to it? You bet we should.

But it is what every person putting money into this has backed, so simply saying it's unacceptable is provably false.  It was acceptable enough for those of us who understood it as being a core part of the intent of the design, and to put our money up to see it built.

No way your going to see it removed now, at least not before it's been tired out for real for several months.  

I do like the idea of campaigns with a different training plan. The problem is the amount of work it would require to isolate training by them.  I'm sure they don't think the "Juice would be worth the squeeze", at least not until after they have problems with the original plans.

Perfect design is a moving target, they will adjust where necessary.

Pretty sure what we backed, at least Kickstarter and early on, wasn't what many were expecting. Not sure if training was even mentioned on the KS beyond something brief in the FAQ.

I did back the concept of being able to try different ways of playing with different rules or options, which seems entirely possible within what they are capable of and have done so far.

If they had carbon copied EVE's system into a fantasy setting, I'd be pleased, unfortunately the similarities are superficial in that they both are passive and that's about it. The OP's concern might not be solved by EVE's system, but they seem to have thought up multiple systems that at least go towards something better than what ACE is planning so far.

Then again, EVE is an "endless" open experience, not chopped up into time limited matches. Games have to be the sum of the pieces. Training in particular for CF seems like a piece that fell out of traditional MMO/RPG's box just because there needs to be permanent numbers attached to a character stat sheet, not because it enhances the overall experience.

To me it seems like training has caused more complaints, overhaul suggestions, flat out confusion than is made up for the limited justification of it. What does it add that can't be done in-game actively in a more fair and skill based manner?

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I must fully agree with what APE is saying. Were other systems for long-term account growth discussed? Was an Eve system discussed?

Per campaign is a great idea BUT it does not speak to long term account growth. Is there a solution to that? I'll agree that an option for special campaigns that involve fresh progression would be great (and something post-launch for sure) in addition to regular campaigns that would use account-skill progression.

Tomes for catch up seem very valuable...so much so, that by the time they are crafted (which I assume will be a long time after launch, with the exception of extra accounts sitting and collecting to bank and sell) it might be VERY valuable for the hardcore players to snag some new accounts and give the tomes to themselves?

Will we be given a reroll option of ANY sort or are we sol and need to buy an account? OR are we just going to trade our tomes with our other OG friends?

Just questions more than concerns.

Edited by fishdix

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19 minutes ago, fishdix said:

Will we be given a reroll option of ANY sort or are we sol and need to buy an account? 

If there will, it will probably very expensive and you will probably be locked to only one/year or something like this.

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I'm okay with being charged to reroll and I'm okay with 1 per year.

What about, we are collecting passive points (I'm cool with making choices) that are like League of Legends, in that we are putting them towards campaign masteries??

After 6 months, I've collected points into my trees or whatever...and During each campaign, I have x amount of points to contribute towards masteries or something to do with the campaigns I am entering. As time goes by, I have more to contribute and allocate for when I enter a campaign. They don't need to be stat based, they can be anything that is account based that we can allocate in any way to our campaign. 

This way we reward passive time-based skilling, but can make individual choices towards our campaigns.

Or maybe I'm crazy, lol 

Edited by fishdix

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9 minutes ago, fishdix said:

I'm okay with being charged to reroll and I'm okay with 1 per year.

What about, we are collecting passive points (I'm cool with making choices) that are like League of Legends, in that we are putting them towards campaign masteries??

After 6 months, I've collected points into my trees or whatever...and During each campaign, I have x amount of points to contribute towards masteries or something to do with the campaigns I am entering. As time goes by, I have more to contribute and allocate for when I enter a campaign. They don't need to be stat based, they can be anything that is account based that we can allocate in any way to our campaign. 

This way we reward passive time-based skilling, but can make individual choices towards our campaigns.

Or maybe I'm crazy, lol 

When the game launches there will be more campaigns online, so it would be annoying needing to put a lot of points in 4 different campaigns every time there is a reset, and it would be super op. Exemple: In the free for all campaign i go full combat, in the gvg campaign i go blacksmith, in 12 factions campaign  i will go runemaking , in 3 factions campaign i go in woodworking, this would take away from the social part of the game.

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Why the worry about separate skill trees one of the best things I like is the fact that we will have different vessels. If you every one on the same footing in a campaign allow no imports.  Then every ends up with a level 1 vessel, and has to scratch out all the real differentiators (tools, disciplines, armor weapons). Having skills maxed will help but having to harvest/craft while PvP will be a serious challenge. Having to retrain each time for a campaign would be somewhat wasteful and get away from the specialization in skills. People who like to harvest are unlikely to jump into a campaign to PvP.  Think of it this way. There are going to be crafter/combat hybrid players - the best ones to take advantage of a campaign with no imports. And there will be hardcore crafter specialists that thrive on providing you the tools/armor/weapons/vessels you want for campaigns that allow imports.

I like the skill system, with the notable exception of the end node homogenization I whine about in another thread. There is the short game - specializing in specific crafting trees and the long game - do I cross trees so I can survive long enough in a campaign where I can make a TON more gold crafting in campaign OR explore another crafting tree so I can cut my costs and boost my profits OR do both (long long term).

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6 hours ago, fishdix said:

 

Will we be given a reroll option of ANY sort or are we sol and need to buy an account?

 

From some of the comments from ACE I have seen, this is eventually on the table. It's not something that is needed right away, and is more a future problem and consideration.

I just have to say, I am fully confident that if passive training is not flexible enough, ACE will at some time in the future add that needed flexibility.  If tomes are a poor catch up mechanic, then ACE will put together a better one.

Given the timescales of training, catch up and reroll are not something that needs to be developed for immediately.  If and when they do become important, ACE will certainly put the effort into solving the problem.

It's not like the the game is going to be "finished" at the same time it is "ready", and they are well aware of the importance and controversy surrounding the training plan.  We are already into the 3rd system respec in pre-alpha so far, much of it because of community input.

 

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12 hours ago, fishdix said:

Tomes for catch up seem very valuable...so much so, that by the time they are crafted (which I assume will be a long time after launch, with the exception of extra accounts sitting and collecting to bank and sell) it might be VERY valuable for the hardcore players to snag some new accounts and give the tomes to themselves?

Will we be given a reroll option of ANY sort or are we sol and need to buy an account? OR are we just going to trade our tomes with our other OG friends?

First, there is no locks for what Race/Class vessel that you CAN play, only on the bonus you get from training in the trees that improve that race or class...   say you dumped all of your marbles into Sylvan-Rogue, you can still play any vessel but get the stat/skill bonuses on that combination plus half the stat bonus on Sylvan-x and x-Rogue, right...   and with VIP you have your off training...   if you cannot seem to nail down your playstyle choosing 2 of 3 race types and 2 of 3 class types in the parent tree you always will have the possibility of buying training tomes for the 3rd choice rather than requiring the development of an expensive reroll mechanic.   It is months into the game, probably after the first campaign before you narrow your choices in the child trees of race and class and by that point, if you are still training away from your playstyle..  hrmm.

Yes, tomes are not planned until x months post launch, but a reroll seems superfluous given if you question your original choices then for goddess sake, change your training.   With passive skills looking to be a shrinking portion of combat power (I see it as down to 20% from the discussed 33%) unless we do get valuable tray powers unlocked through the passives (ressurection, racials, non-base, non disc tray powers).   I would bet a non-passive trained race-class combo on a combat trained account with a level 30 crafted vessel and blue gear would be perfectly viable if you decided to play something different.

Don't associate passive training with a "have to play as that" attitude...   the game doesn't lock you out and everyone is going to fall behind the min/max in something, every player will have an area where they need to catch up...   thus certain tomes will be highly valuable and alt accounts will eventually be "tome generators".   Gaming the training is what we do...   and have always done.   Maybe this is a pita2w scheme given the planning and effort to twink an account or two from multiple accounts  but remember by time training you are devaluing the alt accounts that we may/may not have an opportunity to sell re:trusted traders later on.

Edited by Frykka

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On 4/24/2018 at 3:00 AM, fishdix said:

I must fully agree with what APE is saying. Were other systems for long-term account growth discussed? Was an Eve system discussed?

Passive skill training was explicitly stated to be one of the two primary systems for skills-related character progression as far back as the Kickstarter, yes. The other was "active use," which if memory serves was going to be capped at some amount, but that eventually got removed, then later on was effectively replaced with the ability to level vessels.

The Kickstarter was a few years ago, so a lot has changed, but the core concept behind passive skill training is one of the few things that is still exactly as they first described it. Edit: well...almost exactly. After all, they replaced archetypes with a race/class system, but the system itself is still the same...

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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