AOT: Too Many Soldiers, Not Enough Coal Miners.

[Theoval 42]

AOT: An Odd Thought. 

Subject: Too Many Soldiers, Not Enough Coal Miners.

So, gals, guys, I assume this topic has been tread or covered in some manner...somewhere in this games alpha history, at least, I can only hope it has in some manner; because I see a future problem on the horizon the more I think about this. Sadly I have been unable to find anything about it. 

And this thought process has been sparked by a single sentence in a single thread; "Right now, skills are training at a 10x rate. When it drops to 1x, things will change dramatically. " @ 

Is that really the case? Are we training at 10x the rate? Does this also apply to even basic skills? Or is it just the ones higher in the skill trees?

If so, there is bound to be some extreme issues coming down the pipeline. Not in the usual bug-manner; but that of player choice. Whom here can say they have EVER played an MMO that had more healers and support members (Harvesters, Crafters) than combat focused classes or jobs? What even incentive is there for the crafters? Are we hoping campaigns that benefit and directly are affected by crafters/harvesters because of win conditions, would fix this issue? (Hopefully the later is not the answer, as it will mean the small numbers being spread out further)

The war on self-sufficiency will help this issue, sure, but we are going to see such a huge focus disparity at the beginning, that its going to create a massive demand with so few to fill it, that will be ONLY feast or famine for whatever side gets the majority of the players whom WILL take those thankless classes/functions. Thus we have the Captain / Coal Miner issue. You got more than enough people to fight, but not enough people to outfit those people TO fight, and it creates a vacuum that either gets filled by someone whom doesn't want to do that (making the experience unfun and more than likely to hurt player retention) or those whom already do it, gimp (even if argued its only a 'tiny' difference) themselves from playing any other way for months and months due to the skills coming so slowly. This is a PvP game, people are gonna wanna be doing THAT over spending time hacking up flora and fauna in general.

Am I just kinda overthinking this or has this been addressed in some manner and I have been unable to find anything about it?

This all becomes moot in time though for players that stay, since over time people will unlock more and more on their crow. But the beginning may be...very rough due to this, and hurt the population to such an extent that it BECOMES a bigger problem than it actually is in turn. People like to complain and negativity sticks far more than positive things, just take a look at all the 'pay to win' stuff still floating around about CF (simple youtube search brings up a lot of stuff). Had even a coworker go "oh, you mean you are in the alpha for that pay to win game?"  when I talked about this topic to him even before posting here. 

[Jah 5,876]

2 minutes ago, Theoval said:

Is that really the case? Are we training at 10x the rate? Does this also apply to even basic skills? Or is it just the ones higher in the skill trees?

Yes, the current training rate is sped up 10x. However, they have mentioned speeding up the early nodes. I think they are still working on finding the right progression rates.

4 minutes ago, Theoval said:

This is a PvP game, people are gonna wanna be doing THAT over spending time hacking up flora and fauna in general.

If people don't want to play a game with harvesting and crafting elements, Crowfall might not be the right game for them. In Crowfall we'll fight over who gets to hack up the flora and fauna. Its part of the game loop.

[pamintandrei 94]

32 minutes ago, Theoval said:

What even incentive is there for the crafters?

To win.As a crafter you can't win without someone using your weapons and as a pvper you can't win without a weapon.

[Zatch 260]

The differences in crafted weapons is insane. Crafters will be a necessary component for any group of pvpers. The sword on the left is an amazing success, the middle is an avg success, and a basic was added to illustrate the difference. 

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Zatch

[Armegeddon 1,123]

As Jah referenced, there will be a NEED to have people that want to craft and explore. Simply roaming and trying to "gank" for resources simply won't cut it, especially considering seasons and scarcity. Your guild/community will need to be well rounded, especially in the Dregs. If you are a Guild that wants to engage in PvP exclusively, you will not fare well. This designed symbiosis is integral to their planned design. Need for interdependence to succeed. 

JTC came from Shadowbane. The game, as great as some of its concepts were (and many find here again in Crowfall) had a giant flaw (besides SB.ExE and the brutal Launch/Rush to Market). The sheep were devoured, there was no outlet for them, no place to go. There were no cyclical servers, they were semi-permanent, only closing as population waned. Then the wolves started eating each other, because there was nothing else. The game's population bled out, cannibalizing itself. Eventually consolidating from 7 or 8 servers down to two. 

What they have created here is an inherent need for "sheep", which is a good thing and cyclical servers or campaigns which is great as well. No stagnation, no entrenchment. I probably didn't directly answer your concerns, I just wanted to lend perspective. To succeed, you better have people willing to put time and investment into things other than PvP if you want to play in the DRegs (Guild vs. Guild). This will be mitigated somewhat on the faction rule sets.

All that being said, given the rate of training, I expect the first campaign to be tedious, and that's being kind. Though I'm bought in, sold on the game,  I too have concerns about "new" players leaving in droves due to slow progression once the game goes live. I guess we'll see.
 

[KrakkenSmacken 4,362]

32 minutes ago, Jah said:

Yes, the current training rate is sped up 10x. However, they have mentioned speeding up the early nodes. I think they are still working on finding the right progression rates.

If people don't want to play a game with harvesting and crafting elements, Crowfall might not be the right game for them. In Crowfall we'll fight over who gets to hack up the flora and fauna. Its part of the game loop.

Not sure if you have been on 5.6, but the basics have had a significant cut down in time required per node.  They went from a resolution limit of 3 days minimum to 500 points (83 minutes at 1X). I'm not sure how many they applied that to, but they also took out much of the top end hockey stick of the 5th pip, so things are training faster.

If they keep it where it is, and my 10x napkin math isn't completely out to lunch, then a person can push in crafting basics from zero first table/profession in around 96 hours at 1X.  

If they implement an "everyone gets a free 3 days", and my math isn't totally bonkers, you could start Friday and be into your chosen profession before the weekend is over.

There is a marked speed difference now between profession and race/class.  They have really opened up the flexibility of the system for themselves.

 

 

[Theoval 42]

29 minutes ago, Jah said:

If people don't want to play a game with harvesting and crafting elements, Crowfall might not be the right game for them. In Crowfall we'll fight over who gets to hack up the flora and fauna. Its part of the game loop.

Guess then this fits more of a niche crowd, more like MWO does for robot sims. That is not necessarily a bad thing. I know I won't be able to pitch this game much then to most of my discord buds or coworkers, it doesn't fit what they would want. This game then is meant to appeal to a different mindset than what is usually considered the 'norm' in the mmo industry. Kind of refreshing, looking at it that way. 

9 minutes ago, pamintandrei said:

To win.As a crafter you can't win without someone using your weapons and as a pvper you can't win without a weapon.

Depends on if you luck into killing someone whom WAS a crafter and had hold of a weapon you can use, or a plethora of other variables, but yes, the win conditions make sense. What then is the benefit of winning a campaign outside of transferring gear/items out from said campaign then to make the win worth it? Ofcourse bragging rights is a given. "WE WON YOU LOST! YAH!" kinda dealio.

8 minutes ago, Zatch said:

The differences in crafted weapons is insane. Crafters will be a necessary component for any group of pvpers. The sword on the left is an amazing success, the middle is an avg combine, and a basic was added to illustrate the difference. 

 

https://imgur.com/X2F6oiW

This is actually really useful as a sort of graph to see the differences. Interesting. And reinforces my own choices, but also means that even IF you are a crafter and are not spec'd in combat-you can have a good advantage with powerful gear alone of your own making to give you a slight edge in that manner. That was a smart move on ACE's part to make the differences so great between crafters and non-crafters basic weaponry.

8 minutes ago, Armegeddon said:

As Jah referenced, there will be a NEED to have people that want to craft and explore. Simply roaming and trying to "gank" for resources simply won't cut it, especially considering seasons and scarcity. Your guild/community will need to be well rounded, especially in the Dregs. If you are a Guild that wants to engage in PvP exclusively, you will not fare well. This designed symbiosis is integral to their planned design. Need for interdependence to succeed. 

JTC came from Shadowbane. The game, as great as some of its concepts were (and many find here again in Crowfall) had a giant flaw (besides SB.ExE and the brutal Launch/Rush to Market). The sheep were devoured, there was no outlet for them, no place to go. There were no cyclical servers, they were semi-permanent, only closing as population waned. Then the wolves started eating each other, because there was nothing else. The game's population bled out, cannibalizing itself. Eventually consolidating from 7 or 8 servers down to two. 

What they have created here is an inherent need for "sheep", which is a good thing and cyclical servers or campaigns which is great as well. No stagnation, no entrenchment. I probably didn't directly answer your concerns, I just wanted to lend perspective. To succeed, you better have people willing to put time and investment into things other than PvP if you want to play in the DRegs (Guild vs. Guild). This will be mitigated somewhat on the faction rule sets.

All that being said, given the rate of training, I expect the first campaign to be tedious, and that's being kind. Though I'm bought in, sold on the game,  I too have concerns about "new" players leaving in droves due to slow progression once the game goes live. I guess we'll see.
 

That is a very useful perspective...kinda eases some of my own thoughts on this a bit more. Their really trying to create a symbiotic relationship between the players themselves in order to create a ecosystem in earnest. And I agree, the first campaign I believe will be a...fairly drawn out one. Probably will be one of the more grueling ones for everybody till some semblance of power is built up, and the economy settles. May take several of them even to actually get to a 'situation normal' for the economy. 

4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Not sure if you have been on 5.6, but the basics have had a significant cut down in time required per node.  They went from a resolution limit of 3 days minimum to 500 points (83 minutes at 1X). I'm not sure how many they applied that to, but they also took out much of the top end hockey stick of the 5th pip, so things are training faster.

If they keep it where it is, and my 10x napkin math isn't completely out to lunch, then a person can push in crafting basics from zero first table/profession in around 96 hours at 1X.  

If they implement an "everyone gets a free 3 days", and my math isn't totally bonkers, you could start Friday and be into your chosen profession before the weekend is over.

There is a marked speed difference now between profession and race/class.  They have really opened up the flexibility of the system for themselves.

 

 

That is good to hear! Means that it may not be as much a wait, and as harsh a 'your choices are your grave' feel to it then. 

 

Thank you guys for your responses and info, btw!

[Zomnivore 340]

If you've played albion online you know that this isn't really a problem.

[Theoval 42]

2 minutes ago, Zomnivore said:

If you've played albion online you know that this isn't really a problem.

Actually never even heard of that game. Will google it.

[Zomnivore 340]

It should help alleviate your fears.

 

To be blunt, the people who farmed resources and leveled their crafting at the start of the game became wildly successful in the market place and simply rose to be vastly wealthier then the people who didn't involve themselves early in the resource gathering portion of the game.

It might not seem like much of a big deal, but it just depends on how people are positioned the game dictates that armor and resources are needed and if you're properly positioned to fill that need at the right time, you will be handsomely rewarded.

Of course the economy settled down a bit and things normalized but that head start was significant in establishing the starting hierarchy of guilds and their hold over terrain.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Zomnivore

[Theoval 42]

4 minutes ago, Zomnivore said:

It should help alleviate your fears.

 

To be blunt, the people who farmed resources and leveled their crafting at the start of the game became wildly successful in the market place and simply rose to be vastly wealthier then the people who didn't involve themselves early in the resource gathering portion of the game.

It might not seem like much of a big deal, but it just depends on how people are positioned the game dictates that armor and resources are needed and if you're properly positioned to fill that need at the right time, you will be handsomely rewarded.

Of course the economy settled down a bit and things normalized but that head start was significant in establishing the starting hierarchy of guilds and their hold over terrain.

Just from reading the forums a bit and looking at the active members (and searching for threads about player population), it seems like a really healthy game. An has a lot of the same sort of crowd this game is really meant to cater too. I may give it a whirl even as well to see what its like, since it seems there is a 7day free trial! 

That is good to hear actually, quite a lot to be honest!

[Zomnivore 340]

I enjoyed my time with it, but I didn't like how tightly abilities were tied with gear.

 

You'll probably have a lot of fun with it if this kind of game excites you.

 

[Theoval 42]

15 minutes ago, Zomnivore said:

I enjoyed my time with it, but I didn't like how tightly abilities were tied with gear.

 

You'll probably have a lot of fun with it if this kind of game excites you.

 

Always have preferred games that focus on play interaction over NPC's and quests. Where you may get super basic stuff from crafting for yourself, or buying from a vendor, but to get better things you needed to work with someone to get them. Be it through monster hunting or through crafting. 

That social dynamic I felt has been missing from MMO's for a long time, at least in general. 

[Dr_Tomo 1]

I am curious, as to what evidence formed this conclusion. If anything, this is only going to keep people from playing in the dregs, as playing in this zone as any guild is going to require a lot more strategy compared to playing faction v faction.  My understanding is this is going to be a guild reliant game for the dregs, which means that people are going to have to work as a team and this could be in the form of  mandatory harvesting ops.

I already expect when the game releases that the 3rd skill I am going to have to train for the first couple of months, is some form of mining to help contribute to which ever guild I decide to  join.

[ElFlocko 6]

On 10.5.2018 at 11:27 PM, Zomnivore said:

To be blunt, the people who farmed resources and leveled their crafting at the start of the game became wildly successful in the market place and simply rose to be vastly wealthier then the people who didn't involve themselves early in the resource gathering portion of the game.

Just a quick Story about Albion Online and its start.

In Albion Online you have weapons from "Tier 1" to "Tier 8", at the start of Albion Online i quickly leveld to craft "Tier 4" Daggers.
I bought ressources from gatherers, crafted them to Weapons (Daggers) and sold them, for like 250% of the normal Price...

Just a few others could craft them at this moment, few Offers / much Demands.
Like you sayd a lot of People are Pvp focused and thats the Jackpot!

And this exact thing will happen to in Crowfall, and thats the Reason why i will be a crafter/gatherer at the Start.
"To earn a golden nose" (Like we would say in Germany)

[Zomnivore 340]

Yeah I wasn't telling any fibs.

Its really a problem that fixes itself fast because people see dollar signs.

[elvo 422]

On 10.5.2018 at 10:56 PM, pamintandrei said:

What even incentive is there for the crafters?

[blazzen 3,602]

To the OP, I agree that most people are going to want to do more than just harvest which is why I like the VIP model which lets you fill two professions if you subscribe.

[ElFlocko 6]

The next fun fact is in Albion Online you had 2 Ingame currency's, Silver you got though killing mobs and Gold from buying it with real Life Currency.

But also you could switch Gold to Silver and Silver to Gold, in the early stages of the Game the conversion factor was quite low.
So you could invest all your Silver into Gold, and after some Months you made a huge amount of Silver if you sold your Gold.

(I dont know if there will be a System like that in Crowfall too, like switching between Currency's.)

[Zomnivore 340]

Yeah everyone I knew was saying buy gold with silver right away, and of course it turned a tidy profit, but unfortunately it wasn't anything near as grand as being an early crafter.