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Rikutatis

Disciplines should be tied to the Sacrifice system

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No clue whether ACE reads this particular forum on a regular basis or not, but here it goes anyways:

- I'm not a big fan of discs in their current form (for various reasons I won't detail here), but something Todd said this week in the Q&A made me think they should be tied into the Sacrifice system, NOT gear slots. Here's why: 

-Todd has stated this week they want to promote and upgrade their active progression system a little more, the Sacrifice system as it's currently called. I think spreading out the disciplines in the form of thematic trees (support, offense, defense, utility, etc) and allowing you to acquire and access them through the Sacrifice system would be a great way to make this system meaningful and impactful. 

-As gear slots, I think discs have a huge potential for hard snowballing inside a campaign (they're the most important and impactful part of our builds) and add even more to an already exhausting gear grind. NPCs that were intended to drop disc materials can still be around and provide Sacrifice points instead. Sacrifice provides more variety in gameplay in how to acquire them (or at least has the potential to): capture POIs, pvp, harvesting, killing NPCs, exploration, etc. Plus it reduces that snowball potential of discs as gear. 

-If the devs really want disciplines to be something you can swap during a campaign, they can have a system in place where once you max out your Sacrifice/disc points, you can acquire more points to swap things around later on. That gives players the incentive to keep engaged in the Sacrifice system for more than a weekend. 

-Since discs would be scattered in the form of power trees, this also has allows the devs (if they want to) to limit a little more how players can progress and access discs. More powerful discs could require pre-reqs to balance things out for example. One of my beefs with discs for example is how it waters down class identity and class roles inside team comps. Or how it allows "do it all" builds that have virtually no weakness. This system could further limit which class can access which discs, or how you can stack them for example (again, only if the devs want to). 

@jtoddcoleman

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I'm not opposed to expanding on the sacrifice system, but under-the-covers the disciplines are equip'd items (runestones, just like Race & Class).  so an easier mechanism to achieve what you're suggesting would be to add a generalized system for getting items as a result of sacrifice -- and then including those Discipline items as rewards in that system.

Certainly something worth considering!  As you said, I am in favor of moving more of our advancement from the "passive" to the "active" column.

Todd

 

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1 minute ago, jtoddcoleman said:

I'm not opposed to expanding on the sacrifice system, but under-the-covers the disciplines are equip'd items (runestones, just like Race & Class).  so an easier mechanism to achieve what you're suggesting would be to add a generalized system for getting items as a result of sacrifice -- and then including those Discipline items as rewards in that system.

Certainly something worth considering!  As you said, I am in favor of moving more of our advancement from the "passive" to the "active" column.

Todd

 

Thanks for the reply Todd. Yea, that would definitely work and have the same results as the idea I proposed. 

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1 minute ago, jtoddcoleman said:

I'm not opposed to expanding on the sacrifice system, but under-the-covers the disciplines are equip'd items (runestones, just like Race & Class).  so an easier mechanism to achieve what you're suggesting would be to add a generalized system for getting items as a result of sacrifice -- and then including those Discipline items as rewards in that system.

Certainly something worth considering!  As you said, I am in favor of moving more of our advancement from the "passive" to the "active" column.

Todd

 

Im not sure . Yes we need something more to work for in game. But, A lot of stuff is not in yet . Like capturing the disciplines from creatures like shadowbane. The entire body creation is a minmax char design gamers wet dream. Sure increase the levels you can reach  if you want .

Add in more ability to grind on monsters and sacrifice. Possibly short term buffs for chars from the sacrifice system.  But, PLEASE don't turn this into a forced grind fest. 

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1 minute ago, dolmar said:

Im not sure . Yes we need something more to work for in game. But, A lot of stuff is not in yet . Like capturing the disciplines from creatures like shadowbane. The entire body creation is a minmax char design gamers wet dream. Sure increase the levels you can reach  if you want .

Add in more ability to grind on monsters and sacrifice. Possibly short term buffs for chars from the sacrifice system.  But, PLEASE don't turn this into a forced grind fest. 

It's not a grindfest, or doesn't have to be. If the ways to acquire Sacrifice points are robust and varied enough, you can be doing the things you'd normally be doing on a daily basis and be acquiring them. Capturing forts, pvp, pve, harvesting, uncharting new map territory, etc. I mean, how is that a grind, as opposed to having to camp the disc mobs and harvest a ton of materials to craft the discs? I'd rather have more options to get discs through different gameplay other than harvesting.  

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10 minutes ago, Rikutatis said:

It's not a grindfest, or doesn't have to be. If the ways to acquire Sacrifice points are robust and varied enough, you can be doing the things you'd normally be doing on a daily basis and be acquiring them. Capturing forts, pvp, pve, harvesting, uncharting new map territory, etc. I mean, how is that a grind, as opposed to having to camp the disc mobs and harvest a ton of materials to craft the discs? I'd rather have more options to get discs through different gameplay other than harvesting.  

Getting disc from regions created regional control and huge amounts of pvp at the locations of commander  ect. Its okay while i respect your idea i just disagree with using sacrifice points as currency or even a lottery. 

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13 minutes ago, Rikutatis said:

I mean, how is that a grind, as opposed to having to camp the disc mobs and harvest a ton of materials to craft the discs?

Who said you need a ton of materials to craft discs?

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7 minutes ago, dolmar said:

Getting disc from regions created regional control and huge amounts of pvp at the locations of commander  ect. Its okay while i respect your idea i just disagree with using sacrifice points as currency or even a lottery. 

I mean, I get that, and I agree with you. Something that generates a point of conflict and pvp is a great thing. However I think the game will already have plenty of that when it comes to forts, keeps, bloodstones (when bloodstone campaign or something similar comes online), materials POIs, etc. And while one more in the form of disc "bosses" would be cool, as you said it yourself "regional control" just screams snowball to me, for the amount of power discs currently grant. Imagine being the underdog guid/alliance, that would already be challenging enough on its own to fight the other guild/alliance that has more people, more access to better materials, crafting tables and spawn points, etc. Now imagine fighting them in vanilla builds vs their optimized disc builds. I just think discs are core enough to the combat and progression system that tying them to the Sacrifice system just gives you a lot more agency in how you build your character. Plus it gives the Sacrifice system proper weight and keeps players engaged in it throughout the course of a campaign. 

 

3 minutes ago, Jah said:

Who said you need a ton of materials to craft discs?

Why do you always discuss things through rethorical questions? :)

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1 minute ago, Rikutatis said:

I mean, I get that, and I agree with you. Something that generates a point of conflict and pvp is a great thing. However I think the game will already have plenty of that when it comes to forts, keeps, bloodstones (when bloodstone campaign or something similar comes online), materials POIs, etc. And while one more in the form of disc "bosses" would be cool, as you said it yourself "regional control" just screams snowball to me, for the amount of power discs currently grant. Imagine being the underdog guid/alliance, that would already be challenging enough on its own to fight the other guild/alliance that has more people, more access to better materials, crafting tables and spawn points, etc. Now imagine fighting them in vanilla builds vs their optimized disc builds. I just think discs are core enough to the combat and progression system that tying them to the Sacrifice system just gives you a lot more agency in how you build your character. Plus it gives the Sacrifice system proper weight and keeps players engaged in it throughout the course of a campaign. 

 

 

When the question asked. "Do we need more things to do and more content?" The question is always yes. In shadowbane we had PoI mines seiges leveling and boss mobs. But some of the best solo fights were over Rune Droppers. The Rune dropper locations actually aided the smaller guilds and solo players with gorilla tactics and timing the drop points. It made it more of a living world. With Crowfall they can even make it MORE  alive through this. Grinding endless sacrifice points seems like you could just buy the rune drops with trading in tons of harvested apples. 

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7 minutes ago, dolmar said:

When the question asked. "Do we need more things to do and more content?" The question is always yes. In shadowbane we had PoI mines seiges leveling and boss mobs. But some of the best solo fights were over Rune Droppers. The Rune dropper locations actually aided the smaller guilds and solo players with gorilla tactics and timing the drop points. It made it more of a living world. With Crowfall they can even make it MORE  alive through this. Grinding endless sacrifice points seems like you could just buy the rune drops with trading in tons of harvested apples. 

If the guy is an enthusiast apple harvester, yea sure. Why not. It'll give him access to the same builds everyone else has. Except he'll be doing his favorite thing in the game. Point is, doesn't have to be apple harvesting, but anything allowed by the Sacrifice system. Which should be varied enough. Rune droppers would still be there from how Todd described how the mechanics currently work. And other than rune droppers, as I already said before, there's mats POIs, forts, adventure zones, and more to come with future stuff like bloodstones. 

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I know people that would just bot apple harvesting and buy it with that. I just think it would be better to require teamwork or a skilled single person to outsmart the team. Just sounds like wanting easy mode rune's 

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I could see them doing it for generic disciplines that are valuable to every class like Juggernaut. The more specialized discs I would like to see on specific monsters or locations.

Edited by Zatch

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I posted this in the devs forum, but it more chatty out here so.

Quote

I have always sorta been on that train, but passive over active is a big part of what ACE was selling, and I do like it to keep up without needing to be in hyper achiever mode.

I wonder if there isn't now a compromise possible, with Todd talking about new ways to make active progress for a vessel.  The first thing that came to mind was a major discipline stone for each skill tree that starts at zero, and then levels up as you gain XP. 

You could pick any of the skill trees for this discipline, and you would be sacrificing flexibility those slots give you for the sole purpose of getting an additional skill.  It would be about as permanent as your vessel, which means it would also eat a vessel slot.  It would also be limiting any vessel to two additional skill trees.  So if you wanted to make a dedicated crafter account, you could train the basics passively, and start pursuit of the one you liked the most, and then vessel swap/train into the others actively, by slotting the advanced skills as blanks and sacrifice them up.

Combat would be a hard choise, because it would end up being a swap of combat skills for discipline powers. 

You would want a pre-made vessel of quality for the crafting you wanted to do, before you started the leveling up process. You might even need to catch the correct thrall to put into each skill discipline this way, so the activity would not be "easy". 

So with this comment.

1 hour ago, jtoddcoleman said:

I'm not opposed to expanding on the sacrifice system, but under-the-covers the disciplines are equip'd items (runestones, just like Race & Class).  so an easier mechanism to achieve what you're suggesting would be to add a generalized system for getting items as a result of sacrifice -- and then including those Discipline items as rewards in that system.

Certainly something worth considering!  As you said, I am in favor of moving more of our advancement from the "passive" to the "active" column.

Todd

 

Your sort of start running back into crafting, with just a different mode of exchange.  Getting items as a result of sacrifice is a not a lot different than getting items as a result of giving other items (raw materials), to players.  I naturally start to think about "sacrifice X to get Y" ,and it becomes simply a different material combination issue.

There are really only two things that advance independent of gear.  Sacrifice leveling stats, and passive training.  

An obvious third would be a simple vessel level active training/sacrifice analog. Training skills tied specifically to the vessel. 

Another possible is to go down the enchantment line with this.  You carry around and equip a soul stone, that charges/upgrades with the essence of your experience, which can then be added to already crafted things to give them a further enhancement based on how much experience they have accumulated.  

You could make a race, class or profession slot or stone type for each vessel, with each race, class or profession having a role specific bonus. So maybe after fully charging a Fae stone, you could enchant an item or discipline with the glide ability. With a class, maybe one of the class specific attack powers.

This could be a potential alternate source to high quality thrall soul gems. The partial souls of the crows themselves.

It might also influence trade.  A Fae would not need a Fae stone, but a Stoneborn might. It would give every player, even new ones, something of value to trade besides just gold. It would also help the PvP /PvE combat guys have something they could harvest, in the form of XP that became transferable soul gems.

 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Maybe for minors (Though I can argue against some of the more "In demand" ones like Sturdy and OO etc.). Harvesting discs. I can definitely see this...but I can't agree to this for Majors. People need to get out in the world, they need to search for the Thralls that drop runes.

I don't particularly care for the idea of people "farming" their way to the best Discs in the game. There needs to be competition. Shadowbane was similar to this. The Commander, Gladiator and Bounty Hunter Runes were hell to get at server start. They went for millions on the market. Guilds built Cities, and Banes(Seiges) were dropped on opposing Guilds  to gain proximity to these rune spawns. 

Now, I would like this to be more dynamic in Crowfall. I would like the Mobile carrying the rune to not be set, or constantly respawn in the same static location over and over again, but that would be another subject really.
 

 

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7 minutes ago, Armegeddon said:

Maybe for minors (Though I can argue against some of the more "In demand" ones like Sturdy and OO etc.). Harvesting discs. I can definitely see this...but I can't agree to this for Majors. People need to get out in the world, they need to search for the Thralls that drop runes.

I don't particularly care for the idea of people "farming" their way to the best Discs in the game. There needs to be competition. Shadowbane was similar to this. The Commander, Gladiator and Bounty Hunter Runes were hell to get at server start. They went for millions on the market. Guilds built Cities, and Banes(Seiges) were dropped on opposing Guilds  to gain proximity to these rune spawns. 

Now, I would like this to be more dynamic in Crowfall. I would like the Mobile carrying the rune to not be set, or constantly respawn in the same static location over and over again, but that would be another subject really.
 

 

No need for all of them, or all thrall types, to be represented in what a crow could train up.

Also, it was my expectation that training up soul gems would be just as gated as recipes are. Only fully finished clerics could train the full cleric one. Sturdy maybe only fully trained Centars. (I don't know what sturdy does, just sounds like something with four legs is better at.)

So a bit like how once you've maxed out you skills, building training tomes is an option, once your the best stonemason, and other arrow in your trade quiver is the ability to train up the soul stone that new stonemasons use for a boost.

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