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Rikutatis

Disciplines should be tied to the Sacrifice system

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2 hours ago, dolmar said:

I know people that would just bot apple harvesting and buy it with that. I just think it would be better to require teamwork or a skilled single person to outsmart the team. Just sounds like wanting easy mode rune's 

You could say that about anything harvest related lol. Botting as an argument could be applied to all sorts of different systems in the game. 

You'll need teamwork and skilled plays (or maybe just a zerg who knows) to capture forts, keeps, POIs, to win campaigns as a whole. Whole game will require that. Disciplines is a progression and character building system. You could say it's the core of it. There's already lots of other stuff to craft (maybe even a bit too much at this point). And the devs already stated they want to put a bit more emphasis on active progression. 

 

2 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Your sort of start running back into crafting, with just a different mode of exchange.  Getting items as a result of sacrifice is a not a lot different than getting items as a result of giving other items (raw materials), to players.  I naturally start to think about "sacrifice X to get Y" ,and it becomes simply a different material combination issue.

...

That's because you are taking Sacrifice for just its material donation aspect, the point is that it can be expanded to include all sorts of activities (as devs said before). As long as material donation doesn't end the absolute most efficient way to level Sacrifice, and you can gain sacrifice through capturing POIs, killing other players or npcs, exploring areas and so on, then no, it wouldn't just be the same thing as harvesting/crafting. 

I mean, I understand that "this is not how it was in Shadowbane", but honestly, there's been other good games besides Shadowbane over the years. If what matters for the game experience is that contested territory fight over the special mob spawn (and I agree that's a really cool feature), just make those mobs drop something else, like the seeds needed to plant bane trees, or something related to bloostones, or anything important for the CW win conditions, really. There's different ways to achieve the same fun experience, it doesn't need to be an exact copy and paste of Shadowbane. 

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32 minutes ago, Rikutatis said:

You could say that about anything harvest related lol. Botting as an argument could be applied to all sorts of different systems in the game. 

You'll need teamwork and skilled plays (or maybe just a zerg who knows) to capture forts, keeps, POIs, to win campaigns as a whole. Whole game will require that. Disciplines is a progression and character building system. You could say it's the core of it. There's already lots of other stuff to craft (maybe even a bit too much at this point). And the devs already stated they want to put a bit more emphasis on active progression. 

 

That's because you are taking Sacrifice for just its material donation aspect, the point is that it can be expanded to include all sorts of activities (as devs said before). As long as material donation doesn't end the absolute most efficient way to level Sacrifice, and you can gain sacrifice through capturing POIs, killing other players or npcs, exploring areas and so on, then no, it wouldn't just be the same thing as harvesting/crafting. 

I mean, I understand that "this is not how it was in Shadowbane", but honestly, there's been other good games besides Shadowbane over the years. If what matters for the game experience is that contested territory fight over the special mob spawn (and I agree that's a really cool feature), just make those mobs drop something else, like the seeds needed to plant bane trees, or something related to bloostones, or anything important for the CW win conditions, really. There's different ways to achieve the same fun experience, it doesn't need to be an exact copy and paste of Shadowbane. 

I think material donation is pretty much the only method possible to 'level Sacrifice', a phrase which makes no sense. Do you mean 'Vessel leveling'?

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I don't like the idea of inventory items like discs being tied to the active leveling in the sacrifice system...  it would put an emphasis on the leveling grind that upsets the entire balance between hardcore and casual.   The whole reason for the passive skill system.   

That said..  there are other things besides stats that can be a choice or an unlock from active vessel leveling and not also destroy the livelihood of the Runecrafter.   Selling tools is minor compared to selling discs.  What would make more sense is the disc slots being unlocked on a vessel as you level it...  all of the disc slots are locked initially and unlock in progression from 1-30 every 5 levels.   you get a minor at 5, then a major at 10, your weapon mastery at 15, another minor at 20, second major at 25, and your final minor at 30...   This would essentially make disc powers a progression that you have to plan for and work on actively.   This doesn't give you the discs like some crappy PvE raid prize... 

I want to see how discs are crafted and what experimentation does to a discs stats, powers, etc...  including the recipe unlocks and the rarity of mats needed before we start giving them away as PvE loot...   imo only the thrall and additives should come from PvE, the material goods from harvesting.  Minor discs and Harvesting Major discs should come from fairly common thralls and basic premium materials, the more valuable and sought after discs should require pretty rare thralls and need better materials to get all of the active powers and stats as we know them now to be on the disc at all.  This kind of balance between active play and crafting to obtain high end build needs makes good development sense.  Having discs vary from experimentation would be a big deal... 

 

 

Edited by Frykka

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7 hours ago, Frykka said:

... Having discs vary from experimentation would be a big deal... 

 

 

This would be an interesting change to the game. If its doable I would love to see this implemented.

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15 hours ago, Anthrage said:

I think material donation is pretty much the only method possible to 'level Sacrifice', a phrase which makes no sense. Do you mean 'Vessel leveling'?

Sorry, maybe I haven't been explaining this part of the idea very well (although I thought it was pretty clear in the OP). There's already capping forts on top of material donation. And there's been talk in the past of expanding the system to include other activities. This is a main part of my proposal, that the "Sacrifice" system as a whole be expanded to include a bunch of different activities that can earn you points towards leveling up in this active progression system. I cited several as examples, like killing other players, capping forts and keeps, donating materials, killing infested mobs (or whichever mobs), exploration activities such as map making/discovery, etc. Just stuff that you'd normally be doing on a daily basis. 

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15 hours ago, Frykka said:

...

 

I like the idea you proposed and I think it could be a good compromise to make the active progression very important while leaving discs untouched as they are, I just happen to think there's already soooo much other stuff that crafters have to experiment on and make in the game. Gear is extremely important, and soon we'll have even more stuff for crafters like building cities in the Dregs, and siege equipment. Removing discs from the equation wouldn't have the effect to make crafters obsolete IMO. Instead, it would just put more agency in the player's hands when it comes to their specific character progression (we're not talking about which armor and sword you choose to use, but which powers you want your character to have); avoid a potential snowball effect that character progression as gear can have; and make active advancement important and worthwhile throughout the course of a campaign all in one go (not to mention to possibiity to rebalance discs as trees and limit how you can stack them in different classes/builds). 

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@jtoddcoleman If I could sacrifice specific things or combinations of things for specific rewards this sounds interesting.

This wouldn’t necessarily have to be limited to discs either. Rewards could be all kinds of things. This could be Crowfall’s form of gathering “quests”. Gather 10 slag, knotwood and cobblestone and get a set of starter gear. Could do all kinds of things with this. 

If it’s random rewards then I think that would give it a “loot box” feel which I don’t like. No more RNG please.

Edited by blazzen

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48 minutes ago, Rikutatis said:

Sorry, maybe I haven't been explaining this part of the idea very well (although I thought it was pretty clear in the OP). There's already capping forts on top of material donation. And there's been talk in the past of expanding the system to include other activities. This is a main part of my proposal, that the "Sacrifice" system as a whole be expanded to include a bunch of different activities that can earn you points towards leveling up in this active progression system. I cited several as examples, like killing other players, capping forts and keeps, donating materials, killing infested mobs (or whichever mobs), exploration activities such as map making/discovery, etc. Just stuff that you'd normally be doing on a daily basis. 

It IS clear, but you are not understanding what I am saying, nor what the word sacrifice means. Capturing forts has nothing to do with sacrificing, the examples you cited - killing other players, killing guards, mobs and ToLS - none of these things have anything to do with sacrificing, which is specifically putting items into a brazier, to sacrifice them to the gods. You continue to conflate the concept of sacrifice with the system of Vessel Leveling or generating XP. It's not that we're stupid and don't understand your clear OP,  it's that your use of language and terminology in this regard is sloppy, incorrect and bizarre. :)

That may be due to a language issue, which is fine, but my point is, it would help your case if you stopped using the term sacrifice - which has a lot of associated baggage as it very specifically relates to the collection of items, which relates to particular activities that some people find unappealing as they can involve an unnecessary grind etc. What you are proposing is  A ) New/more ways of generating Experience  B ) New/more ways of using those Experience Points, to do more than just get Attribute Points by leveling your vessel...

It's an incredibly important distinction which I think it would be very helpful for you to make more clear, by not misusing the term sacrifice.

Edited by Anthrage

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I'm not sure why exactly we keep swinging back and forth like a pendulum between more active and passive advancement. The XP for vessel leveling would already feel too heavy if it weren't for the fact that vessels are now effectively permanent until destroyed. If we tack an even larger grind on to discs the only way I see that being okay is if they remain tradable, in which case I question sacrifice as an acquisition method when the soul capture and craft method seems to be a much larger driver for trade and exploration than just finding the single most optimal common item to sacrifice.

 

Stable trade, IMO, needs to ensure people loot and create valuable things they don't actually need, but that other people do. The more of the game that revolves around using a universal sink (which will always have a single specific highest-efficiency common item farm) for a specific result, the more we're just creating a system where every player needs everything they pick up. This stifles trade and creates a system in which players are focusing more on farming for sacrifice than looting/harvesting for the intrinsic crafted uses of various items. This isn't a binary decision, obviously, but it IS a pendulum where focus on once necessarily pulls focus from another.

I honestly don't understand the need for more active advancement, especially as a result of sacrifice. Isn't collecting items and getting better equipment/discs active advancement? The existing 87 attribute points are perfectly fine as a way to "patch up" the more random stats of vessels since they can't be mass produced. The existing skill trees are all about using or creating specific equipment (vessels are equipment) and in general the system as it stands praises acquiring specific goods that match your specialization over acquiring nonspecific goods that never enter the economy. The former encourages individual players to give individual items subjective value, which encourages trade. The latter encourages players to give individual items objective value, which only encourages hoarding. Tho more we lean toward objective value, the more we lean toward boring grind and away from player interreliance.

@jtoddcoleman Can you explain why you feel we need more active advancement beyond the existing model of equipment with lower impact stat specializations and higher impact harvesting/gathering specializations?

Edited by PopeUrban

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Active progression runs the risk of being used as a band-aid. Games tend to put in active progression for two reasons: (1) to give players a clear "reward" system and the psychology that follows or (2) to get players to play the game to keep up. Both are motivated by a hope to get players to play, and both made moot if the game mechanics themselves encourage players to play: combat and competition. If they do, success. If they do not, then active progression can hide that problem temporarily, but leads to burn-out as players recognize that their grind is not for anything fun.

This is all a roundabout way of my arguing that disciplines should go toward the SB model as much as possible. I totally agree with posters saying crafters have enough to do, fighters need more to do. Discipline hunting was a complete play-style in SB. It was different than farming, siege, ganking, mine-fights, camp-fights. 

Ultimately, "active" needs to be interpreted broadly. The idea of active is players in game doing things. Not all of those things need to be progression in a numerical advancement sense.

It's much more interesting to make such an integral part of character-building be scarce, economic, and competitive rather than a grind.

Further, the OP perspective on disciplines is necessarily incomplete, since the current system is not close to the proposed complete system, so I am very skeptical to criticisms of the discipline system as it is now.

Edited by McTan

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Sacrificing to the gods could be an interesting way to add more activities to do in the game. However, I'd rather it be its own unique system vs having certain disciplines tied directly to it. To me the sacrifice system would shine in its ability to give unique skills and passives to players.

An example could be a sacrifice to Malekai gives access to a higher stealth skill at the initial points, poisons at the mid tie. and finally culminates in giving the player access to an ability that summons a spider to be used as a scout. I think this would be a cool way to introduce more of the lore to Crowfall to the general player base as well as add an active component to player customization. Obviously this system would take time to design and develop, but I believe it would be a cool addition to Crowfall.

Edited by Zatch

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I think it would be great if activities that inherently required more risk produced items that could be sacrificed for more value than more mundane items and activities. That would make it less optimal to try and grind up vessel levels with cheesy crafting activity.

eg. along with the heads you can collect from downed players, perhaps maybe some kind of soul doobers could pop out from a player when they get downed, similar to how doobers pop out from resource nodes. These soul doobers could be sacrificed for value far greater than regular ore resources. You could also put the soul doobers into the crafting system as well.

I imagine you explain it in the lore as pieces of the crow's soul fracturing from the trauma of its vessel being brought to the point of death.

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1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

I think it would be great if activities that inherently required more risk produced items that could be sacrificed for more value than more mundane items and activities. That would make it less optimal to try and grind up vessel levels with cheesy crafting activity.

eg. along with the heads you can collect from downed players, perhaps maybe some kind of soul doobers could pop out from a player when they get downed, similar to how doobers pop out from resource nodes. These soul doobers could be sacrificed for value far greater than regular ore resources. You could also put the soul doobers into the crafting system as well.

I imagine you explain it in the lore as pieces of the crow's soul fracturing from the trauma of its vessel being brought to the point of death.

I got two accounts. Implement this ASAP so I can farm myself to max with zero risk.

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2 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

I got two accounts. Implement this ASAP so I can farm myself to max with zero risk.

Because, of course my idea was intended to be a fully fleshed out and completely full proof concept ready for introduction to the game.

Anyways, you going to waste 10 minutes between kills to get back to your corpse and second account for the next kill? Doesn't sound optimal to me.

But hey, that is all some people can manage I suppose.

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10 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

I'm not sure why exactly we keep swinging back and forth like a pendulum between more active and passive advancement. The XP for vessel leveling would already feel too heavy if it weren't for the fact that vessels are now effectively permanent until destroyed. If we tack an even larger grind on to discs the only way I see that being okay is if they remain tradable, in which case I question sacrifice as an acquisition method when the soul capture and craft method seems to be a much larger driver for trade and exploration than just finding the single most optimal common item to sacrifice.

 The existing 87 attribute points are perfectly fine as a way to "patch up" the more random stats of vessels

agree...   In SB you stalked the spawn and then PvP happened around an 8 hour respawn and usually a stealthed thief took it from the body before the person making a kill could even loot.   In CF you will only hunt for the thrall and capture it with a (simple)  crafted Soulgem you have to buy, carry in inventory and thus have a chance to lose every skirmish...   from the thrall you make a disc so it doesn't skip the economy piece.    There should be parity in combat power between the harvester/crafter with no combat training in good gear and has had no time to active level beyond 10-15 (they were harvesting and crafting) and the average combat PvPer in crappier market purchased gear that has done the grind to level 30...   they should be on pretty equal ground, one with stats from better gear, the other with stats from more active progression.

Edited by Frykka

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I think there's a lot of redundancy in the disciplines that can be moved over to possible ability acquisition through the sacrifice system. Disciplines like Escape Artist that basically have duplicate abilities (or multiple abilities VERY CLOSE in functionality) refactored and possibly divvy up between the sacrifice system and runes.

There definitely needs to be away to acquire more abilities and early on. Having to wait a weeks / a month and being stuck with the same tray is sure to drive people off.

Edited by izkimar

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