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Crowfall Crowns - Official discussion thread

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It will all wash out. Anyone that has played for any length of time, and Srathor should know this, white resources basically become worthless over time. Or to me they were. 
 

Now you have two options, you can take those stacks of white iron, spruce, granite et al. and choose to make lower tier weapons and armor to sell in your EK or create parcels with them. Creating them should be time consuming, otherwise no one would purchase them.. right? ACE is not in the business of charity and Crowfall, as a project, is not an altruistic endeavor.. they have stakeholders.


That being said, given the amount of resources needed to create parcels, campaign exports may have to be revisited.


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45 minutes ago, Armegeddon said:

That being said, given the amount of resources needed to create parcels, campaign exports may have to be revisited.

Unless you craft the parcel/building in the campaign and export that.

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The shop is absolutely something you should innovate on.  The system of buying odd amounts of middle man currency just to transfer it immediately to a purchase is enraging.  I can think of various accounts off the top of my head that I have a balance just sitting there.  Frankly it's similar to buying a gift card and waiting to use it until random fees are charged to it.  There's a reason most places were forced to remove those charges.

Since you need the system of crowns, in my mind it can be solved buy being allowed to buy an exact amount of crowns, in the lowest common denomination (50?).  Then having the price be discounted based on tiers of how much you want to buy.  So if 50 crowns is $0.50 baseline and I want to buy 6500 crowns, I buy exactly 6500 crowns.  But since I passed the 6250 tier you currently have set up I pay $0.40 per 50 crowns as a discounted price.

 

The separate issue being talked about is time in game vs resources you can buy in the store.  If you want a Manor for example, the resource cost in game and thus the time cost is enormous compared to the store.  I actually found it funny tallying up the resources just how much harder it is to build a simple cottage than to craft an entire section of land.  I could see this being the sticking point where someone buys a building for cash, then sells it in game for an enormous amount of non-basic resources, turning that into high level gear.  It's the one area that needs to be looked at so the pay2win voices don't have a legitimate concern.

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8 hours ago, Scree said:

Wait. I want to understand you right Srathor.

You want in-game items to be easier to make? As it stands crafters and gatherers will command superior prices from players willing to trade VIP for in-game items. 

Weird. I would have thought you'd come down the other way. You want your crafted items real-life value trivialized? Keep in mind the store-bought stuff can't be imported into campaigns. So in-campaign crafting could be incredibly profitable.

I want the in game effort to be close to the out of game effort. Otherwise it is just a transparent money grab. Back when I was working i made a decent living. That makes it worse. The in game effort is truly a stupid amount when you take into account everything needed to gather 3000 premium doobers. Tools, time, contested areas, random gankers. The man hours required to make parcels is bad. The man hours to make buildings is asinine. It is so far off the mark compared to the man hours to make the cash and buy it in the cash shop, that it is absurd. 

A fairly easy test for the amount of hogwash being peddled for me is when someone says "but you can make it in game!"

Always when you hear that look at the effort it takes in game, yes it will always take longer because the game stuff has hoops to jump through. So it is always easier to just "break out the wallet." When it starts getting into money grubbing hogwash for me is when it is so obviously the smart choice to "break out the wallet", that the illusion of choice is no longer there. When you are obviously making a bad choice to do it in game it really starts pissing me off. 

It is a sham, and Crowfalls geomancy line is stupidly, cash grabby.

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12 hours ago, Scree said:

This exact argument is currently raging in the closed beta of Magic the Gathering: Arena. The developers are selling "gems" in odd-sized bundles referencing "Bonus Gems" just like you guys are. The problem is, the things you can buy don't break evenly into any of the amounts. The lowest bundle you can buy is 1000 gems and packs cost 300 each (or whatever the exact amount is).

The point is, people are less disgruntled off about having to buy gems to buy stuff, then they are being forced to buy currency that doesn't easily break down into things they want to buy.

Take note @Tyrant there are some hills to die on, currency that doesn't break nicely into purchasable items shouldn't be one of them. I would hazard a guess that if you gave players the choice; "bonus crowns" or "buy $5 and spend exactly $5" that the later would win in a heartbeat. Still, I recognize that developers purposefully do things like sell currency and then not offer stuff to buy that nicely spends all of that currency for psychological reasons.  Don't be those people.

I'm in that beta, and not on the forums, but one thing I have not noticed CF doing with crowns that MtG is doing, is there seems to be an in game way to earn the gems through trough weekly quick draft tournaments.

I don't think the whole rounding up and uneven distribution would be a problem so much if there was an in game way to cover the gaps.  Very very dangerous economically speaking, but since ACE is letting people craft other things worth money like parcels, with careful consideration, could crafting crowns solve the rounding issues?

 

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I understand the need for a minimum order due to credit card and admin fees incurred per transaction. 

What if you require a $10 minimum order but allow people to buy in any increment they want above $10 and implement a sliding scale that rewards larger purchases per transaction? 

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2 hours ago, Armegeddon said:

It will all wash out. Anyone that has played for any length of time, and Srathor should know this, white resources basically become worthless over time. Or to me they were. 
 

Now you have two options, you can take those stacks of white iron, spruce, granite et al. and choose to make lower tier weapons and armor to sell in your EK or create parcels with them. Creating them should be time consuming, otherwise no one would purchase them.. right? ACE is not in the business of charity and Crowfall, as a project, is not an altruistic endeavor.. they have stakeholders.


That being said, given the amount of resources needed to create parcels, campaign exports may have to be revisited.

The other thing to keep in mind, is that much like is the case with Ethereal Dust, white premium materials are an entry-level access point into the economy for new players. Anyone regardless of their amount of skill training or their gear can convert play time into a marketable resource, in the form of the needed mass quantities of white premium resources, or ethereal dust. We have already seen trade activity of this type in the pre-alpha, and there are zero supporting tools for that level of the economic system - I have no doubt this will be an important part of the foundation of the pyramid here, and that it will only get more solid, and important, as time goes on.

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I'm not a fan of real money ever being used as a replacement for in-game effort. That being said, I understand the realities game companies are faced with. They have to monetize their games somehow. If the game doesn't make money, there won't be a game to play. There is no perfect monetization system. 

Given that parcels and buildings can't be used in campaigns, the effect that these purchases have on the game is minimized. Yes, people can buy a bunch of parcels and buildings and build up their EK, but they aren't buying the vendor stalls or vendors. They aren't buying all of the items their vendors will sell. So regardless of how much players buy, a significant in-game effort will still be required to build a successful EK. Also, the likelihood that a single player will be able to have a successful EK by themselves just by spending money is low. It's going to require a group effort to build and maintain the largest, most popular EKs. So if people want to buy a manor or a town parcel or whatever instead of crafting it, I don't think that's going to have much impact on the game.

Regarding the in-game effort matching the out-of-game effort, that just isn't practical. For starters, the whole reason people buy the items rather than craft them is to avoid the effort involved. Again, I'm not a fan of that, but if the game is going to have it, buying it has to be the quicker, easier method. The alternative is to either make the crafting easier to the point that it is trivial (and remember that there is no decay on parcels and buildings), or to make the cost so high that no one will buy them. If no one buys them, then the game doesn't generate enough revenue and we all have to find something else to play.

As with all things, there is a balance here, a compromise between how difficult it is in-game and how costly it is out-of-game. Ultimately it is up to each player to decide where the line is for them and proceed accordingly.

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@Tyrant is it intended in your new store, that guild membership should be extending a discount to VIP monthly purchases? Rang up as 13.50 for me when I added one to cart.

Also, was it necessary to give me 1798.2 crowns? Are you guys ever going to offer anything in fractional values aka .2? (and if you are... ugh why?). I give you permission to subtract .2 Crowns and use it to buy a saltine for your office.

Edited by Scree

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3 hours ago, srathor said:

I want the in game effort to be close to the out of game effort. Otherwise it is just a transparent money grab. Back when I was working i made a decent living. That makes it worse.

It is totally unrealistic to expect to earn the same cash value from playing the game as you could by working a job in real life.


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2 minutes ago, Jah said:

It is totally unrealistic to expect to earn the same cash value from playing the game as you could by working a job in real life.

Or to complain that people earn a living working, while some people choose to play games. Doesn't make it a cash grab either.


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1 hour ago, Scree said:

 is it intended in your new store, that guild membership should be extending a discount to VIP monthly purchases? Rang up as 13.50 for me when I added one to cart.

Sounds like the 10% guild discount. This wasn't your first purchase after creating/joining a guild, was it?


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4 hours ago, srathor said:

Always when you hear that look at the effort it takes in game, yes it will always take longer because the game stuff has hoops to jump through. So it is always easier to just "break out the wallet." When it starts getting into money grubbing hogwash for me is when it is so obviously the smart choice to "break out the wallet"

It has to be lower to earn in game than what a gold farmer pays their staff.  That is the balance point, because they can afford to put in effort at 2$ hr or whatever the slave wage is for that kind of work these days.

It's a global economy. Can't just think of what the average income in USA or other western countries are, you kinda have to think in terms of what is the cheapest labor hour you can buy anywhere.

Unless of course you want the game to be totally overrun by gold farmers, and ACE to have to compete with them price and sales wise.

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13 hours ago, srathor said:

The cost in raw time is 5 times the cost of just tossing them the money in the cash shop. In just raw gathering time. 

That is exploitation.  

:wacko:

Cash shop is for EK conveniences only. How is paying for a convenience an explanation? What is it an explanation of? 

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14 hours ago, Scree said:

@Tyrant is it intended in your new store, that guild membership should be extending a discount to VIP monthly purchases? Rang up as 13.50 for me when I added one to cart.

Also, was it necessary to give me 1798.2 crowns? Are you guys ever going to offer anything in fractional values aka .2? (and if you are... ugh why?). I give you permission to subtract .2 Crowns and use it to buy a saltine for your office.

We'll get he fractional crowns fixed (in your favor).

The guild discount applies to your first purchase after guilding.

 


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On 5/16/2018 at 7:07 PM, Tyrant said:

Do you have example games that allow "buy the exact amount of tokens"?

It's been a while since I've used it, but on Playstation 4 I believe you can just purchase the exact amount needed to buy a game or DLC or whatever item. It's a system, not a game... but same idea.

I generally avoid spending money in most microtransaction games so I can't think of specific game examples off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple games that let you specify a price, or at least if you pick an item in the store let you just purchase that exact amount of microtransaction currency.

How about this for a system that would make players more likely to purchase I think: You pick an item, or add a bunch of items to your cart, and on checkout if you don't have enough crowns it asks if you would like to buy the exact amount of crowns. If you're going to keep the bonus crowns (which I still think is a mistake) then just give the player the ratio of whatever tier they are past.

ie. I add 2750 crowns to my cart, go to checkout. I have 125 crowns. It offers to sell me 2625 crowns at the 115 crowns:$1 ratio (the same as the $20 for 2300 crowns package), so $22.83.

Edited by Svenn

Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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So crows are totally in?

Might want to remove the * from 1,000 crows on the Pioneer starter Pack. * means not in-game yet.

Also might want to make it clear if the upgraded pack cointains the previous one exclusive rewards. I imagine if i buy the Adventurer starter pack i also get the 1,000 crowns and warhorse in the pioneer pack?

 

Also I decided to browse the store (despite having work to do) but I am having trouble navigating. The store page seems like a dead end. I can see the starter packs and some 'Other Crowfall bundles and items:' but that is all. I can't  really browse anything...

Where are all the other items? Don't tell me I can only see the real store after buying a pack?

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21 hours ago, Tyrant said:

We'll get he fractional crowns fixed (in your favor).

The guild discount applies to your first purchase after guilding.

 

What about the fractional value of buying 2300 crowns and having 700 crowns that can't be used to purchase anything? Or if you want to waste money, buying 2000 crowns and having 500 crowns that can't be used to purchase anything? This is literally the same issue without a decimal point.

Edited by PopeUrban

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