Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
wabben77

Market Concerns

Recommended Posts

Hello there!  Sorry in advance for the wall of text. I'm a little concerned about how the market is going to work in this game.  The huge amounts and grades of materials will ensure crafting is rich, complex, and difficult.  The problem with this is actually getting a hold of the materials you are looking for.  I 100% agree with the design philosophy of interdependence among players when it comes to crafting.  This fosters a healthy and vibrant commodity market with many market participants and many transactions going through every day.  This interdependence allows for specialization of individuals, and makes for a game experience where individuals can choose what they want to do while earning a good amount of coin.  So what is the problem you might ask?The problem comes in when you consider how the eternal kingdoms work, the lack of an option to search for specific items without entering each individual EK, and the inability to place BUY orders. 

 

So lets take a look at problem #1.  Eternal kingdoms work on the basis of creating a vendor, and then supplying that vendor with goods that you have bought or made yourself, and then people come in to buy them.  If the market EK is offline, good luck.  In order to see what each vendor has for sale, you must check each individual vendor, and they may or may not have what you're looking for.  If they do have what you're looking for, great! If not, go to the next market EK and repeat the process.  A game with a simple crafting system, and a small list of materials and components this would work just fine, as all things are easy to create, or at least easy to obtain.  In a game with numerous grades of many different resources, many different components and tons of different weapons armors and disciplines this is going to be a HUGE problem.  

 

Problem #2:  Lack of a clear market listing server/game wide.  If you don't have a market listing of different sellers and buyers for particular items such as a sell order for green ore 50 gold/unit with 50 units available, 100 gold/unit with 200 available and so on it will be next to impossible to find a steady supply of the items you need without getting ripped off.  If you are specialized in leatherworking for example, how can you make your goods visible?  Where are the harvesters supposed to sell their ore without making vendors in their own EK and hoping someone wades through the overwhelming "browse" list??  

 

Problem #3 Inability to place "buy" orders.  In order for a complex marketplace to work you NEED traders.  You need more than a few EKs setup to sell what they have on hand.  You need LIQUIDITY.  Without buy orders in place for harvesters and crafters to quickly offload their goods for the listed price you are going to have a lot of production, but no way to capitalize on your activities.  Using the previous example of a leatherworker, they could simply sell all of their goods to a buy order without needing to create a vendor and list anything at all.  In the current system harvesters and crafters will be at the mercy of a few large EKs and will receive only what they are willing to pay. 

 

My thoughts on a solution to these problems.  Have a market window on the EK browser, or a market window in-game that will list all available goods with their prices clearly listed for all online EKs.  This will allow small scale players to display their goods without being at the mercy of large market EKs, and make it easier for players to find what they are looking for at a fair price.  Allow a buy order vendor that will buy all the things you wish at a set price.  Make all of these visible on an in-game market window or on the EK window when choosing a world.  

 

Thanks to any of you brave folks who took the time to read this wall of text! :) I think this will be a great game, but without a market that works very well I don't think there will be much reward for people who choose to specialize, and people who strive to be self sufficient will be rewarded.  This will take away from the social aspect of the game, and the reward of your chosen profession except to the very large guilds and market EKs.

Edited by wabben77

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't like the idea of CF having an auction house or a single market list in which to trade that totally defeats the purpose of people actually interacting more with each other. There will be plenty of opportunities to find what you're looking for by asking others and getting to know those markets with good reputations. Feel free to check out LFG Bazaar when you get the chance. As far as having a list in an EK. Once you become familiar with the big market EKs you will learn which vendors you enjoy shopping at most. I wouldn't want to see a market list for the EKs either. I would hope that you can ask in the EK chat and someone will be available to reply and provide assistance or take your order so you can get back to the fight.

Edited by Gaiawyn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Jah said:

On #3, they do plan to add "buy" orders.

That will solve quite a few problems on its own.  If there isn't a listing in-game I'm sure there will be a third party website you can go to that will list buy and sell orders attached to what EK they are in similar to how warframe's trading works. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Gaiawyn said:

I don't like the idea of CF having an auction house or a single market list in which to trade that totally defeats the purpose of people actually interacting more with each other. There will be plenty of opportunities to find what you're looking for by asking others and getting to know those markets with good reputations. Feel free to check out LFG Bazaar when you get the chance. As far as having a list in an EK. Once you become familiar with the big market EKs you will learn which vendors you enjoy shopping at most. I wouldn't want to see a market list for the EKs either. I would hope that you can ask in the EK chat and someone will be available to reply and provide assistance or take your order so you can get back to the fight.

I don't necessarily want you to be able to purchase directly from the list, just for a list to be available so you can see what is on offer and for what price.  As far as a market having a good reputation.... I don't see how it could have a bad reputation as what is on the thralls is at a set price.  If transactions were carried out between players I could see reputation having a big impact on a market's success, but that isn't the case.  

 

You have to remember, there will be thousands of players, each with their own EK.  Judging by how many are set to public already in the closed alpha, how in the heck are you supposed to FIND anything without a market listing?  How often will a hub be online? I can't even find the LFG bazaar on the list as we speak.  How can you be assured you are getting a fair price as a crafter? 

 

Without a market listing there will be exactly one de facto trading hub.  In eve online there are 4 major trading hubs all in different regions of space.  The reason there are four is because you actually have to spend time to travel to the specific market.  In crowfall there is no travel time to different EKs so there will simply be one market everyone goes to.  It will be the place that always has a stock of everything, and if you want to sell something of your own you will be at the mercy of whatever their buy order is set to, which will be very very low.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wabben77 said:

You have to remember, there will be thousands of players, each with their own EK.  Judging by how many are set to public already in the closed alpha, how in the heck are you supposed to FIND anything without a market listing?  How often will a hub be online? I can't even find the LFG bazaar on the list as we speak.  How can you be assured you are getting a fair price as a crafter? 

With a universally accessed Auction House, the economics becomes more about pricing than politics and community. That would be an overall loss for Crowfall's intended design concepts, although some search tools for finding merchants would be helpful.

Some EKs will be invite-only - it's quite possible that guilds, factions, or other communities might wish to limit who has access and who they sell to. For public EK merchants, a big part of the game will be making economic connections and a reputation for yourself, so that players seek out your vendors and other crafters/suppliers want to work with you.


tiPrpwh.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, miraluna said:

With a universally accessed Auction House, the economics becomes more about pricing than politics and community. That would be an overall loss for Crowfall's intended design concepts, although some search tools for finding merchants would be helpful.

I understand what you're saying, but the vast majority of transactions will already be without any interaction whatsoever due to the thrall system.  If the game can pull off a functioning and robust economy without market and price listings I will be a happy camper.  What I am guessing will happen is the price will be set by one or two EK's that do the vast majority of the trading volume in the game, while all other EKs have absolutely no visitors.  This decreases competition, drives up sell orders, drives down buy orders, and makes 99%+ EK's irrelevant.  We already see this phenomenon in eve online where there are only a few space stations used for trade, and the rest of them are dead markets.  The problem will be even worse in crowfall because there is no travel time between EKs so far.  There is even less impetus to use other markets besides whichever has the most inventory and cash.

 

Eve online is THE most community focused game on the market to this day and uses this system.  I don't see how it would make the game less about community when all the market interactions are already with a thrall and not a real person. 

 

Either way if it is not included in the game I'm sure there will be a third party listing service online sometime after release anyway.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This problem statement seems to miss the general principle of economics, the Pareto distribution. 80-20 rule. 

The simplest way to describe this in terms of CF. The top 20% of the top 20% or top 4% of EK trades centers will contain 96% of what you need.  All ACE will need to do is highlight the EK's with the most activity in terms of average player volume, and the best markets will naturally rise to the top. 

With the vassal system, it will be really easy for players to attempt to grow their EK into one of those top trader EK's in the universe. May the best player/guilds win.

ACE is definitely going to set up a system to keep the most active EK's up, or allow players to wake up other players EK's. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, wabben77 said:

What I am guessing will happen is the price will be set by one or two EK's that do the vast majority of the trading volume in the game, while all other EKs have absolutely no visitors.  This decreases competition, drives up sell orders, drives down buy orders, and makes 99%+ EK's irrelevant.  We already see this phenomenon in eve online where there are only a few space stations used for trade, and the rest of them are dead markets.  The problem will be even worse in crowfall because there is no travel time between EKs so far. 

This is exactly what will happen, regardless of the systems put in place by ACE, unless they make traveling to EK's completely pointless. 

It's an economic behavior your simply not going to beat.... ever. 

There are hundreds if not thousands of online buy/sell/swap sites, some of them very local.  But there are only two major players, EBay and Amazon.

It's not a problem, it's just the way things work out.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

This is exactly what will happen, regardless of the systems put in place by ACE, unless they make traveling to EK's completely pointless. 

It's an economic behavior your simply not going to beat.... ever. 

There are hundreds if not thousands of online buy/sell/swap sites, some of them very local.  But there are only two major players, EBay and Amazon.

It's not a problem, it's just the way things work out.

Yes, that is what happens and it IS a problem.  It is this way in the USA more now than it used to be.  There used to be strict enforcement of anti-trust laws to combat this.  You may not be able to beat it but you can limit the damage it does.  A listing WILL help alleviate the problem.  You don't want one group of people controlling all the money in the game, and that is what will happen if the buy and sell orders are controlled by one or two groups of people.  If you don't want to see one group constantly dominating the dregs with top tier equipment make it as easy as possible for small guys to compete.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

 

The simplest way to describe this in terms of CF. The top 20% of the top 20% or top 4% of EK trades centers will contain 96% of what you need.  All ACE will need to do is highlight the EK's with the most activity in terms of average player volume, and the best markets will naturally rise to the top. 

 

Yes, they already have a convenience advantage, but if you give visibility to other people's markets that may have lower prices you don't exacerbate the problem by making them the only markets you are able to trade reasonably.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, wabben77 said:

Yes, that is what happens and it IS a problem.  It is this way in the USA more now than it used to be.  There used to be strict enforcement of anti-trust laws to combat this.  You may not be able to beat it but you can limit the damage it does.  A listing WILL help alleviate the problem.  You don't want one group of people controlling all the money in the game, and that is what will happen if the buy and sell orders are controlled by one or two groups of people.  If you don't want to see one group constantly dominating the dregs with top tier equipment make it as easy as possible for small guys to compete.

 

21 minutes ago, wabben77 said:

Yes, they already have a convenience advantage, but if you give visibility to other people's markets that may have lower prices you don't exacerbate the problem by making them the only markets you are able to trade reasonably.  

It's not a problem.

Not going to get into a fight on basic economics with you, just going to disagree and say that every economic model ever attempted has ended up putting the control of wealth in the hands of few people roughly along the Pareto distribution model. 

Also, ACE is not trying to build some EK marketing engine, they are trying to build a competitive game, and one of the levels of competition is how much wealth you can accumulate and trade for in your EK.  Part of that is doing the legwork necessary to convince people your place is the best place to buy/sell. If you can't push your own, team up and set up your own co-op of shops/crafters to take on the bigger groups. Nothing is stopping anyone from trying to make the best gear, or to work together.

With import rules, the economic impact of EK dominance will have almost nothing to do with winning campaigns.

No matter what ACE sets up to "help" consumers find out of the way EK's, they are still going to go where they can get what they want.  Not everyone spends weekend in thrift stores or garage sales looking for that best price deal.  Some people just want the convenience of going to one place to get everything they need.

That's even more important when you consider that we are actually going to have to wander our avatars around whatever EK's we intend on shopping in. 99% percent of people are not going to waste time looking for a 5% discount on iron ore if it means they have to travel to it, find the shop, buy it, and then travel home again to buy the next item, no matter how the information is presented or searchable.

Human leisure time is worth way too much to spend hours trying to shop bargains in game. We will find our favorite EK trade kingdoms, and stick to them 99% of the time.

If you think that's a problem, well then you have a problem with human behavior.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

No matter what ACE sets up to "help" consumers find out of the way EK's, they are still going to go where they can get what they want.  Not everyone spends weekend in thrift stores or garage sales looking for that best price deal.  Some people just want the convenience of going to one place to get everything they need.

I know nobody wants to spend a weekend in thrift stores and garage sales, that is WHY I think listings are a good idea.  

24 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

That's even more important when you consider that we are actually going to have to wander our avatars around whatever EK's we intend on shopping in. 99% percent of people are not going to waste time looking for a 5% discount on iron ore if it means they have to travel to it, find the shop, buy it, and then travel home again to buy the next item, no matter how the information is presented or searchable.

Except that is exactly what people do every day in eve online.  Some people that is ALL they do. 

 

25 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Human leisure time is worth way too much to spend hours trying to shop bargains in game. We will find our favorite EK trade kingdoms, and stick to them 99% of the time.

If you think that's a problem, well then you have a problem with human behavior.

No, I have a problem with having no reason to visit any EK except whichever one is the most popular, even if it has bad pricing.  Transparent price listings give a reason and an activity for traders in the game.

 

27 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

It's not a problem.

Not going to get into a fight on basic economics with you, just going to disagree and say that every economic model ever attempted has ended up putting the control of wealth in the hands of few people roughly along the Pareto distribution model. 

Fair enough, I didn't take a college course on economics.  Even if this is the case, is that a good enough reason to render all other market EKs useless even if they offer better prices?

 

30 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

With import rules, the economic impact of EK dominance will have almost nothing to do with winning campaigns.

It depends on the rules,  but it is too early to argue about this until we see how it pans out.  I suspect whatever guild controls the market will steamroll but if the import rules are strict then you are right this will not be a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the things that attracted me to CF the most is the community and potential for crafters. If you're in a well-versed guild of crafters and pvpers you likely will never need to seek wares outside of your own guild anyway. Most of the marketplaces will be there to serve the player who just wants to log in get some decent gear and head out to bash heads or those solo harvesters needing their tool fix, for example.

I do like the idea of having the EK browse area where the most active EKs will be bumped to the top. Or even showing the online EKs at the top will be good.

I feel if you want to bargain hunt, you should have to be forced to communicate with others and find the best spots, not from some easy-mode market list. Besides, I would rather the money that would be put into developing something like that go into other fun stuff like a pink tutu for my guineacian.

W50P4Ak.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Gaiawyn said:

One of the things that attracted me to CF the most is the community and potential for crafters. If you're in a well-versed guild of crafters and pvpers you likely will never need to seek wares outside of your own guild anyway. Most of the marketplaces will be there to serve the player who just wants to log in get some decent gear and head out to bash heads or those solo harvesters needing their tool fix, for example.

I do like the idea of having the EK browse area where the most active EKs will be bumped to the top. Or even showing the online EKs at the top will be good.

I feel if you want to bargain hunt, you should have to be forced to communicate with others and find the best spots, not from some easy-mode market list. Besides, I would rather the money that would be put into developing something like that go into other fun stuff like a pink tutu for my guineacian.

W50P4Ak.jpg

 

LOL! fair enough :).  I thought I would put my input here and see what people thought.  It seems like most people are against the market listing idea so I'll give it up.  I just know how useful it is and how many activities it can lead to through trade and manufacturing from my 7 years in eve online.  I suppose I will do it the old fashioned way and find the prices in EKs myself :). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you have to remember too that players might be more encouraged to go to friendly guild shops and maybe pay a little more to help support the groups they like....I do know it is very difficult to consistently keep the shops full if your a major hub of business....this may motivate players to go elsewhere...also some shops specialize...there was a ship that specialized in selling cheap etheral dust and thats all he sold...he did great business because he was filling a market that other shops were not able to fill because they were suing the dust up...I just think that the economy and where players shop are not easily explained as ebay or amazon..I will say that from the Q&A the crowfall team really seemed opposed to anything like an auction house and so i would be shocked to see a listing of supplies and prices.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, wabben77 said:

LOL! fair enough :).  I thought I would put my input here and see what people thought.  It seems like most people are against the market listing idea so I'll give it up.  I just know how useful it is and how many activities it can lead to through trade and manufacturing from my 7 years in eve online.  I suppose I will do it the old fashioned way and find the prices in EKs myself :). 

That's the Spirit! :) It never hurts to put an idea out there to see where it leads. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, wabben77 said:

It seems like most people are against the market listing idea so I'll give it up.  

I don't think that "most people" are necessarily "against the market listing idea" itself. But there are several factors that makes it quite unlikely to be implemented soon (though maybe it will come some day, when the final game and it's community evolved). Let's take a look at some of those factors.

ACE always said there won't be an auction house and the economy will be completely player-driven. That doesn't necessarily mean that there will never be any tools that will help the players to drive the economy. But the base is that we will have to do it on our own. Everything. I mean, we even have to carry our purchases physically to the next moongate.

It feels right in a fantasy game that you have to go to a vendor and ask him what he got. If that is different in a science fiction game, where you can pull all shopping data out of the web, it fits to the theme of this game. Of course it is more convinient to have such a list provided by the game anyways. I am just saying that it would fit into the game basics (player-driven fantasdy economy) not to have one. 

Probably the most fundamental principle of Crowfall is risk vs. reward. The more risk you take, the bigger your reward (or loss) may be. Add to it the point that in Crowfall specialized people will get better results and that you need to cooperate with people with other specializations in order to reach the highest point of the ladder. For me it feels right that this will also be true for traders. You want to have the best items and the best prices? Then you need to take the risk, the time, the effort, to visit a lot of vendors to get them. This way, in my opinion, Crowfall opens up the opportunity to make being a trader a full-time and highly specialized job. A job not everybody will be willing or able to do. Just like it is with crafting. You don't just click a button and voila there is your sword. No, you need several components, from several professions, have to craft several items, put them together, do experimentation and take the risk of failing. It feels right that trading will have the same "problems".

Of course there is always this little (big) issue of balancing convinience and challenge. That's a game design question. ACE made sure that they are having a big eye on it. And what we see in the tests now is not what we will have in the later game. The whole economy stuff just started to find their way into the tests with the first vendors. The inventory/spirit bank/travels/taxes/maintenance, this all will get added/changed within the next few months. (Which is why, by the way, this is absolutely the best time to add suggestions about this stuff now). 

But what not should be forgotten is that the EK system offers several potential uses. I still believe in my Trinity categorisation. 

  1. Personal EK's: Very small. Mostly just housing, a nice house, a chest for storage, maybe a workbench and/or a vendor, and some heads on a spike. For oneselve and maybe a handful of friends. I guess a lot of people will use their private EK this way. Some more, some less.
  2. Guild EK's: Small to large, sometiemes even several theme-related EK's, depending on the guild. This is where (outside the CW's) the guild life happens and people get the most of the stuff they need. 
  3. Community EK's: Medium-size to Multi-EK. These are the big hubs. Next to some community projects, some Guild-EK's may try to provide those, too. Those EK's will focus on a dense concentration of theme-related content, citizens and visitors. A market EK would be specialized on low taxes, low rent and a lot of space for vendors. 

So, it's not this endlessly chaotic list of EK's that you predict. Players would usually turn to their guild EK to get stuff. Usually that will be enough. If there is something missing, they might visit the big market EK's. And the professional traders and crafters might invest some time to visit smaller EK's to get some special deals. And that's it.

I don't share the worry, that the small crafters will helplessly depend on the big king's mercy. Big hub EK's will only become (and stay) big and successful, if they offer good conditions to their crafters and traders. It will surely happen that a king wants to much and some of the citizens just go away and build their own EK together. And if they are good enough, they may develop a big market hub themselves. 

I also don't think that simple list would really help with visibility. The bigger EK's will offer hundreds or thousands of items ... and then you still don't know where you find what you saw on the list within the kingdom. So, such a listing system would have to be really good and comprehensive. That again would take even more development time.

tl;dr:

I think this could be an interesting additon for a later expansion after release. Meanwhile the guild EK's should be able to provide enough for their players, the managers of the big hub will surely come up with things that makes it easier for their customers to find what they are looking for. And professional traders will need to work for their money - visiting the smaller shop EK's. ;)

 

 


2W1ZHpA.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How hard would it be to add optional fields each person can check off under their EK options just like the enable PVP option. Put in a vendor check box that opens a whole list of additional boxes, EX -Ore vendor, armor vendor, wood..etc

 Allow search filters that correspond with these categories with the option to only display EK's online.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My biggest concern/question is what the EK layout will eventually look like. How many buildings can you currently place on a parcel? How many Vendors? Work stations?

Point is, a Merchant EK should look like the guild beach heads.. at a minimum. Condensed and convenient.. efficient.  I would probably want it condensed more than a beach head. If I want to look for goods, I don't want to have to roam EK's that are half the size of current world maps to look through a merchant guilds wares due to parcel restrictions that limit socketing of vendors and buildings.


So I guess the question is, will these EK's look organic, or will they have vendors flung over Hell's Half Acre for the sake of meeting parcel requirements?

 


.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...