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wabben77

Market Concerns

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24 minutes ago, Armegeddon said:

My biggest concern/question is what the EK layout will eventually look like. How many buildings can you currently place on a parcel? How many Vendors? Work stations?

Point is, a Merchant EK should look like the guild beach heads.. at a minimum. Condensed and convenient.. efficient.  I would probably want it condensed more than a beach head. If I want to look for goods, I don't want to have to roam EK's that are half the size of current world maps to look through a merchant guilds wares due to parcel restrictions that limit socketing of vendors and buildings.


So I guess the question is, will these EK's look organic, or will they have vendors flung over Hell's Half Acre for the sake of meeting parcel requirements?

 

Something tells me if someone's EK is Sloppy and inconvenient, they will not get many return visitors. They should also allow a block EK option so you can slowly weed out EK's that you would never want to visit again

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52 minutes ago, Armegeddon said:

My biggest concern/question is what the EK layout will eventually look like. How many buildings can you currently place on a parcel? How many Vendors? Work stations?

Point is, a Merchant EK should look like the guild beach heads.. at a minimum. Condensed and convenient.. efficient.  I would probably want it condensed more than a beach head. If I want to look for goods, I don't want to have to roam EK's that are half the size of current world maps to look through a merchant guilds wares due to parcel restrictions that limit socketing of vendors and buildings.


So I guess the question is, will these EK's look organic, or will they have vendors flung over Hell's Half Acre for the sake of meeting parcel requirements?

 

Yeah, I think that's a good question. And with the first implementation of parcel specific building tokens in 5.6 we are getting nearer to the point of getting an idea about how it is meant to look ... and to give competent feedback.

For 5.6 I'd say the socket numbers seem to be much too small. For example in 5.6 a Village parcel (256x768 meters) provides sockets for 1 Lodge, 3 Cottages and 6 Stalls+Vendors (or crafting stations). You need about 15k named resources to build such a parcel and it is meant support about 10 players. In the end it just looks empty. 

However, there have been pictures and videos in the past which might provide an idea about where we are heading at in general. One I used for my own calculations is a picture from the Graphics Overhaul video last year, that shows how ACE probably imagines a (well enough populated) street.

vuVfCf3.jpg

Another one is a picture from the Massive Reveal: Environment Improvement video which showed a first impression of the citadel parcel with a number of houses that felt good for ACE.

 6qcETqj.jpg

On this last picture I marked the section that would roughly correspond to the shown street in the picture before. So, counting shops and characters, we might be able to take a guess about how things are meant to look like in the final game in a living city.

 

You were asking about how EK layouts may look like. Based on the informations we got up to now and my careful calculations, this is what a big EK (and in this case, one of my Cities of Ravenheart) may look like, including houses.

nEPbMCy.jpg

 

I think this would feel ok. ;)

Edited by Kraahk

2W1ZHpA.jpg

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one exciting thing (at least I hope) is that the CF team could allow more refined Parcel rules.  Not just full EK is Public or Private 

I could have Multiple vendors setup, bu one set is on a Guild/invite only parcel the other is open to all. I could have the same item up on 2 different vendors for different prices and by default different vendor access rules. 

I could do this my having my Public vendor be at a public EK as a noble and keeping my limited edition vendor on my EK as private but I want the option to not be forced into it. If someone's public EK is the 'best spot' for traffic then I might want to be there but as a choice for the traffic not the only way to have segmented vendors 

 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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I don't think we'll see public/private by parcel. I don't think they'd want people running around in an EK and running into invisible walls.

I could see them having an access list for vendors though.

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We also have no idea about if/how we will be able to set up and label EK internal rune gates.

It may be that we use them to help with layout and district issues within an EK, so that although there is a large amount of emptish woodlands between towns, a well developed player EK will get players around through gates between towns/shops/districts.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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12 hours ago, wabben77 said:

Yes, that is what happens and it IS a problem.  It is this way in the USA more now than it used to be.  There used to be strict enforcement of anti-trust laws to combat this.  You may not be able to beat it but you can limit the damage it does.  A listing WILL help alleviate the problem.  You don't want one group of people controlling all the money in the game, and that is what will happen if the buy and sell orders are controlled by one or two groups of people.  If you don't want to see one group constantly dominating the dregs with top tier equipment make it as easy as possible for small guys to compete.

EvE is a great game to look at for some of the impacts on who controls the money.  Even though there was a top 1% in EvE, I never felt stifled by the larger corporations/individual players controlling the Isk.  Jita was never meant to be the hub of business in the original EvE design, it just migrated that way with players.  Because most players want a good deal (think car buyers, who are willing to spend more for an easy non-haggle experience) and not to get ripped off, will go to Jita because it's the mall of EvE.  If you want to make a profit and are really looking for a good deal, then players will go to other systems, and can find a tidy profit from moving goods.

Top tier gear needs to be relatively easy to obtain, and I hope that there will be lots of harvesters willing to sell to crafters, that will be able to consistently make the same items over and over.  I don't see Crowfall in the same light as SWG, where some materials were super rare; I see this game being more like EvE, where materials will be gathered, and then mass produced.

One thing that you haven't touched on in your argument is the effort to remove materials from the worlds back to the EKs.  We may see a natural limit to resources, due to winning guilds not wanting to share.  I at least can't say how the resources will go from world to EK.


lUvvzPy.png

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I think most trading will happen in the Campaign worlds. I mean that is where we will spend most of the time and where we will require to buy things. I won't use my import stuff on trivial stuff only the things I really need, doing all the shopping and selling mid campaign.

At least to common people will be like that. GUilds are a different beast but they will try to be as sell-sufficient as possible anyway.

I don't think EK will be the limiting factor or that players will have to browse through millions of EKS for anything. Heading to the town with most stores set up would probably be the only thought of players.

That said a options to check what items a store has would be a good function. I am not sure how PM is explained in CF (good question actually) but it makes sense to be able to PM the thralls to see what they have before heading there. Could add a 'vendor-friend' list. Only for convenience really.

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11 hours ago, wabben77 said:

It seems like most people are against the market listing idea

EVE has amazing economic gameplay, it's just different than Crowfall's concept. CF's economy is closer to MMOs like Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies - both of those had vibrant vendor-based systems that really helped form social communities around merchants. It's a paradise for crafters (less convenient for price-focused shoppers :P)!

 

3 hours ago, Hunt said:

How hard would it be to add optional fields each person can check off under their EK options just like the enable PVP option. Put in a vendor check box that opens a whole list of additional boxes, EX -Ore vendor, armor vendor, wood..etc

 Allow search filters that correspond with these categories with the option to only display EK's online.

Agree, some search options to help find what you are shopping for would make the process more friendly.


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I see two possible ways to counter this very reliant concern of having a rich crafting economy with no safe place to trade.

1) the first and in my opinion, the poorly made sockstier way to do it in my opinion, would be a mailing system with a COD that connects through out the world. You make a deal in chat, send it through the mail, if the agreed upon price was not met it would return to sender.

 

2) in my opinion the better way. An safe zone NPC trade city. In Shadowbane all trade took place in khar. If an agreed upon trade was made via chat or the forums the two parties would meet in designated trading safezone and continue the interaction.

 

Personally i like the idea of a face to face economy as it builds a reputation with the crafters and the consumers like in real life as opposed to just being a name and a price on an auction house.

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2 hours ago, Kraahk said:

Yeah, I think that's a good question. And with the first implementation of parcel specific building tokens in 5.6 we are getting nearer to the point of getting an idea about how it is meant to look ... and to give competent feedback.

For 5.6 I'd say the socket numbers seem to be much too small. For example in 5.6 a Village parcel (256x768 meters) provides sockets for 1 Lodge, 3 Cottages and 6 Stalls+Vendors (or crafting stations). You need about 15k named resources to build such a parcel and it is meant support about 10 players. In the end it just looks empty. 

However, there have been pictures and videos in the past which might provide an idea about where we are heading at in general. One I used for my own calculations is a picture from the Graphics Overhaul video last year, that shows how ACE probably imagines a (well enough populated) street.

I think this would feel ok. ;)

Bingo! You get exactly the point I was attempting to relay. If it looks like your examples, it will be amazing... if it's one or two buildings per parcel and spread out... well... not so much.


.

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9 minutes ago, Vonsnazzy said:

I see two possible ways to counter this very reliant concern of having a rich crafting economy with no safe place to trade.

1) the first and in my opinion, the poorly made sockstier way to do it in my opinion, would be a mailing system with a COD that connects through out the world. You make a deal in chat, send it through the mail, if the agreed upon price was not met it would return to sender.

 

2) in my opinion the better way. An safe zone NPC trade city. In Shadowbane all trade took place in khar. If an agreed upon trade was made via chat or the forums the two parties would meet in designated trading safezone and continue the interaction.

 

Personally i like the idea of a face to face economy as it builds a reputation with the crafters and the consumers like in real life as opposed to just being a name and a price on an auction house.

I've actually, over time, stated the need for an NPC city (or three) in the Dregs campaign for that exact purpose.


.

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I've actually, over time, stated the need for an NPC city (or three) in the Dregs campaign for that exact purpose.

 

yeah I think that is the smart play for them.

Edited by Vonsnazzy

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If the vast majority of EK's basically become irrelevant and just one or two major market hubs dominate the trade landscape, the game's economy is just going to barf roll over and die.

In EVE Online a single dominant market hub (Jita) works because that market hub is not controlled by players, it is controlled by NPCs so basically no one. Anybody can sell there, and there is reasonable protection in the system against random acts of violence. There are attempts at other player owned market hubs, and there are in fact several regional market hubs in EVE Online's galaxy, but Jita remains the place to go for much of the game's commerce. 

In Crowfall, there are a whole host of actions and bad outcomes that can happen when players have complete control over a few dominant trade centers. And to be clear, what we are describing here is a form of control that could develop out of a situation where there is low information available in the market. When people lack an ability to conduct trade with long tail niche vendors (ie. search and find goods quickly among hundreds or thousands of EK's) then they will inevitably just go with the most visible vendor, hence the few mega EK's - that are owned completely by players and provide features like black lists and enabling PvP and even just shutting down the EK completely.

This is all a big deal IMHO, and the folks suggesting it is ok are potentially not realizing the full ramifications of such a sandbox environment.

In the end, this is a game, and it needs to function to allow people to have fun.

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19 hours ago, wabben77 said:

Thanks to any of you brave folks who took the time to read this wall of text! :) I think this will be a great game, but without a market that works very well I don't think there will be much reward for people who choose to specialize, and people who strive to be self sufficient will be rewarded.  This will take away from the social aspect of the game, and the reward of your chosen profession except to the very large guilds and market EKs.

To the OP, thank you for posting your thoughts. In general I agree with much you have written and am glad there are more people voicing their concerns on this matter. I am troubled that ACE has not weighed in on on this stuff yet, but perhaps it is too early in their time tables to worry about the game's economy and information systems.

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45 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

 

This is all a big deal IMHO, and the folks suggesting it is ok are potentially not realizing the full ramifications of such a sandbox environment.

In the end, this is a game, and it needs to function to allow people to have fun.

I understand your concerns, but I don't see why the crafters have to hear the 'its got to be fun' reason to limit our Econ PvP battles when Combat discussions seems to circle around get good. One player is not equal to another in combat the other loses. Is that loss fun? hopefully the entire experience is fun. Hopefully Crowfall can be crated in a way that the full experience of combat is fun even when you are out classed in a specific area. Why should I expect the Econ side to have any less expectations? The original game was pitched as I can play my way, and to limit specific options for crafters because that would be not fun for a section of player base seems kinda odd. 

Edited by Anhrez

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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I do hope they up the token numbers of buildings, vendor stalls, etc. per parcel. Currently in 5.6 on a shire parcel I have a fort, cottage and can only place 3 crafting stations when the fort itself will support 4 stations. This will be the one thing that puts a kink in a nicely designed market style EK. I'm glad they came out with the crafting deck and hope they will do the same for vendors. Having them attached to a building is not the most functional for a marketplace.

Currently in 5.5 you can place a cottage, attach a vendor stall then pick up the cottage leaving the stall by itself is somewhat of a workaround, but makes it more challenging to get them lined up. I have not been able to test this in 5.6 since vendor stalls are missing from my recipes along with the larger parcels.

Edited by Gaiawyn

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17 minutes ago, Anhrez said:

I understand your concerns, but I don't see why the crafters have to hear the 'its got to be fun' reason to limit our Econ PvP battles when Combat discussions seems to circle around get good. One player is not equal to another in combat the other loses. Is that loss fun? hopefully the entire experience is fun. Hopefully Crowfall can be crated in a way that the full experience of combat is fun even when you are out classed in a specific area. Why should I expect the Econ side to have any less expectations? The original game was pitched as I can play my way, and to limit specific options for crafters because that would be not fun for a section of player base seems kinda odd. 

I want econ PvP "battles".

Setting up a system where ultimately only a couple mega guilds dominate everything will not provide for that.

So, I don't really understand where you are coming from. Are you in one of the prospective mega guilds?

 

"One player is not equal to another in combat the other loses. Is that loss fun?"

To account for that there will be Faction warfare campaigns so people without a big guild can group with other folks.

The economy layer is not going to be segmented so that solo crafters can do their thing separately from guilds with 15 dedicated crafters. Obviously. But created a system that intentionally or inadvertently favors mega guilds preferentially does not seem like good game design to me.

 

All I'm asking for is market information. Markets are dependent on information. I'm not even sure you have read anything here.

And yes, this is a game, so it must be fun. If a requirement for you to have fun is for the overall game design to have a non-sustainable economy than I'm not sure your idea of fun is compatibly with a sandbox MMORPG that wants to have some degree of persistence.

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1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

 

In Crowfall, there are a whole host of actions and bad outcomes that can happen when players have complete control over a few dominant trade centers. And to be clear, what we are describing here is a form of control that could develop out of a situation where there is low information available in the market.

I read that you are against 'control' , but control comes from effort right? Like all things my hope is that the Econ side can avoid the Uncle Bob scenario just like the amount of effort the CF team is putting in to avoid it in combat. But I am confused are you saying everything on the econ side should be easier .. getting information, deciding what to buy, deciding who to sell too, etc? Why should econ be easier than combat? I have to uncover the fog of war in the campaign why not a fog of war in econ efforts .. unless again you think econ side should be easy because econ effort for non-econ focused players is not fun? 

If your guild or faction is currently unable to buy what you want go gather it and build it yourself. Building in campaign adds risk and could create more effort the your  crafters but the other faction not letting you into their Necro-Walmart EK has less impact since you can gather and craft in campaign. In fact, those that have skilled in campaign crafters will have an advantage over time as imports will be limited those that gather and continually craft in campaign will eventually out shine many of the WalMart Eks.

With everyone having an EK how can any faction have "complete control" ... the winners get to export more and that means their crafters will have the best stuff for the next cycle. We have no idea how many campaigns will be going at one time, no real idea of the Embargo rules, and no idea how many campaigns an account can be in at one time. The ability for players to craft in game, with a Passive training system, and that the best materials will be found in campaign seems to easily minimize the control scenario you are worried about.

But ... I am not a full on Pollyanna here I have very many of the same concerns you have about the Social Aspects needed to promote the Economic Loop, my hope is that we will hear the devs ideas on them. I sure hope that EKs that sell have some sort of indexing that allows players to search reasonably, but with the durability loss in game, and the length of campaigns maybe control of Walmart Invite only EKs will not be the same as the Eve points you described. 

 

Edited by Anhrez

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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Speculation: There will be several different types of markets which emerge in the different Crowfall play spaces.

Campaign Worlds: In the dregs, it'll be possible to create vendor cities which act as neutral parties between the various alliances and guilds vying for control of a campaign world. These markets will last as long as the campaign world is up, or until they become a siege target for control points, a strategic location or because it one alliance wants to deny another alliance access to finished goods. Many of these trader towns will be found to be fronts for one guild/alliance or another and become targets for that reason. It's unclear if these types of trader towns will exist in the Faction worlds, as there might be more item traffic between those worlds and the EK's. In the Dregs, doing business there will be risky, as there aren't any protections to keep the shoppers from murdering each other.

Exclusive (Closed) Markets: In the EK-sphere, there will be markets set up exclusively for resource distribution between guild and alliance members. These markets aren't necessarily operating to generate maximum profit, but rather to effectively distribute gear to active players within a player organization. These EK's would be self-sufficient operations, run by large, active communities which regularly win Campaigns and reap the rewards. Rather than allow their enemies and competitors to pay them in cash for access to the best materials and gear, they'll keep them in-house and distribute them only to guild-mates, allies and trusted friends. 

The Open Market: This market encompasses all of the public shopping destinations in the EK-sphere. Most of the traffic will center around a handful of fully developed EK's and many would be merchants will forego using their own EK's to have a vendor stall in a popular hub. Which EK's become the hubs will be determined by politics (relationships and networking), hype (marketing) and success in the campaigns (availability of rare resources and fully built EKs). Some hubs may operate politically, where EK owners allow their friends to hold land and set up stalls. With the most popular hubs, it's likely that every parcel, every building token and every vendor stall will command a premium, allowing Monarchs and Nobles to sell access to their real-estate in addition to charging them rent and getting their cut in taxes.

 

As for pricing, I see the dilemma. Without some sort of listing service, players will have to continuously spam EK chat with their goods, vendor location and prices (probably with a macro). There could also be a third party website or service which sends players around to the different markets and records inventory and pricing. This seems like a fairly monumental task, however. It's be nice if each EK had a listing service or shopping browser by parcel or by world, allowing shoppers to see what vendors had what goods at what price. They'd still have to go to the vendor and pick up the item (like EQ's Luclin Bazaar). 


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