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wabben77

Market Concerns

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1 hour ago, Anhrez said:

 

I read that you are against 'control' , but control comes from effort right?

 

No, control does not always come from effort.

Sometimes control comes simply from being the biggest and most noticeable. I suppose some effort in that respect may come in the form of recruitment activity.

I am not against players controlling things, that can be some of the most engaging game play, but since this is not a completely open system, giving players the ability to effectively control the location of market activity without giving other players the ability to dislodge them by force effectively creates a system where market forces eventually break down and become static. It's like in how Albion Online had large money guys buy up all the prime city real estate within the first week of launch and were completely invulnerable to being dislodged because of their massive pooled resources - until some Chinese scammers/farmers used bot-produced gold to outbid the money guild on an insane margin. Essentially the only way to beat the mega guild, who controlled the taxes on all the prime crafting stations, could only be beaten by people who cheated the game.

 

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2 hours ago, Anhrez said:

If your guild or faction is currently unable to buy what you want go gather it and build it yourself. Building in campaign adds risk and could create more effort the your  crafters but the other faction not letting you into their Necro-Walmart EK has less impact since you can gather and craft in campaign. In fact, those that have skilled in campaign crafters will have an advantage over time as imports will be limited those that gather and continually craft in campaign will eventually out shine many of the WalMart Eks.

My fear is more about selling then buying, without a small safe area where trade can occur freely it falls down to an honor system... in an online video game... Player run free gank open cities as economic hubs only allow the largest guilds with the infrastructure to protect their trade to participate in the economy everyone else runs a far bigger risk of getting their crafts stolen then purchased.

Also some smaller guilds who many not have every crafter and will have to participate in trade for those wears. If getting payed depends on how many people you bring again it puts only the largest guilds at a serious game breaking advantage.

You also over looked one small thing. The competitive aspect. If i am in a large guild that produces the most powerful equipment why would I trade that to a guild that doesn't have those advantages thus giving them the ability to compete? For money we cannot take with us if we don't win?

Edited by Vonsnazzy

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4 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

It's like in how Albion Online had large money guys buy up all the prime city real estate within the first week of launch and were completely invulnerable to being dislodged because of their massive pooled resources - until some Chinese scammers/farmers used bot-produced gold to outbid the money guild on an insane margin. Essentially the only way to beat the mega guild, who controlled the taxes on all the prime crafting stations, could only be beaten by people who cheated the game.

 

I hear what your saying about Albion, but Econ happens in multiple places and has some already described mechanics in place. 

1) The EK - this is owned and managed by the player. The ability to 'dislodge' someone can't apply here. Players can limit who can come and go, its their right of ownership. No amount of money or power within a guild can keep another player or smaller guild from putting up their EK. There is no amount of money or power that can keep a small guild from working cooperatively with another guild or solo player to trade components to allow both guilds to fill in their missing parts. It just does not feel like the same mechanic that created Albion's land rush issue.  Also since a guild can craft in game and certain campaigns won't even allow an import there are minimizing mechanics on EK uberness feeding Campaign dominance. 

2) The Campaign - this is a bit more nebulous but we have seen that Fort and Keep control makes a difference on crafting in campaign. That is part of the overall Combat/Campaign loop as much as its part of the Econ loop. We have no idea about the ability to drop tables in player created structures in campaign, but it could be an anti-Uncle Bob mechanic if one guild or faction has control of all crafting locations. The control of Keeps and Forts must be assailable for the Combat/Campaign loop to be successful. If the Combat/Campaign loop is overwhelmed by zerg or a too powerful guild that campaign ends and we start again so the controlling group is dislodged do to play or campaign ending mechanics. 

 

Edited by Anhrez

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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21 minutes ago, Vonsnazzy said:

 

You also over looked one small thing. The competitive aspect. If i am in a large guild that produces the most powerful equipment why would I trade that to a guild that doesn't have those advantages thus giving them the ability to compete? For money we cannot take with us if we don't win?

if you look at my forum icon its a toydarian, I plan on selling to anyone within reason. Not for money I can't take with me but for resources I need. When a guild feeds their econ loop I am expected to work within that loop to output for the betterment of the guild. That is fine with me, but that doesn't mean I only trade within my guild. The concept of Crowfall is that there will be times when guilds are aligned and then next campaign the guilds are competing. Resource scarcity at the end of a campaign where I have a lot of exports but not a lot of great things to export could mean I ping you and say ... I'll export for you at a % or I'll trade you and uber crafting Vessel from my EK if you export this stack of Cinnabar for me. With passive training even the smallest guilds or solo player will have the knowledge and basic skills to craft what ever mats they can get their hands on. The combat loop will dictate (imho) the deals to be made far more than the labels we put on ourselves as faction, faith or guild . 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

No, control does not always come from effort.

Sometimes control comes simply from being the biggest and most noticeable. I suppose some effort in that respect may come in the form of recruitment activity.

I am not against players controlling things, that can be some of the most engaging game play, but since this is not a completely open system, giving players the ability to effectively control the location of market activity without giving other players the ability to dislodge them by force effectively creates a system where market forces eventually break down and become static. It's like in how Albion Online had large money guys buy up all the prime city real estate within the first week of launch and were completely invulnerable to being dislodged because of their massive pooled resources - until some Chinese scammers/farmers used bot-produced gold to outbid the money guild on an insane margin. Essentially the only way to beat the mega guild, who controlled the taxes on all the prime crafting stations, could only be beaten by people who cheated the game.

 

I can't take the devs at Albion serious.  Didn't they allow themselves to be blackmailed in the first month of release? 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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5 hours ago, Teufel said:

One thing that you haven't touched on in your argument is the effort to remove materials from the worlds back to the EKs.  We may see a natural limit to resources, due to winning guilds not wanting to share.  I at least can't say how the resources will go from world to EK.

Yeah that may very well be the case.  We don't really know what impact the market EKs will have on the actual campaign gameplay yet at all.  My assumption is people will import their best vessels and equipment right off the bat, the crafters will import the materials they need to get started mass producing, and a land rush will begin.  Ah well, the main point of my post was to advocate for a market with clear information to foster competition so people have an opportunity for the most fair price possible, and to limit what the big wal-mart EKs can get away with.  I suppose it's a moot point if the Eks don't end up influencing the campaigns as much as I suspect they will. 

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9 hours ago, Armegeddon said:

My biggest concern/question is what the EK layout will eventually look like. How many buildings can you currently place on a parcel? How many Vendors? Work stations?

Point is, a Merchant EK should look like the guild beach heads.. at a minimum. Condensed and convenient.. efficient.  I would probably want it condensed more than a beach head. If I want to look for goods, I don't want to have to roam EK's that are half the size of current world maps to look through a merchant guilds wares due to parcel restrictions that limit socketing of vendors and buildings.


So I guess the question is, will these EK's look organic, or will they have vendors flung over Hell's Half Acre for the sake of meeting parcel requirements?

 

Yeah I agree the concept of having a street lined with vendors sounds so much more appealing then running over that hill and through that stream to get to the next vendor.

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how i see it:

someone will make a marketplace website. i can list my items, label my EK and people can search more than 1 EK via the website. they'll still have to visit my EK and buy from my vendors but that beats visiting every EK where it'll take a while to search for an item you're looking for.

i can see market EK hubs being created where someone's EK is notorious for trade and you'll go there for the 'best prices and selection'.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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1 hour ago, jetah said:

how i see it:

someone will make a marketplace website. i can list my items, label my EK and people can search more than 1 EK via the website. they'll still have to visit my EK and buy from my vendors but that beats visiting every EK where it'll take a while to search for an item you're looking for.

i can see market EK hubs being created where someone's EK is notorious for trade and you'll go there for the 'best prices and selection'.

I would much rather ACE just build an API for this sort of search, and let players build all the fancy stuff.  Less work for ACE exposing a (E.G product/seller?ore=iron&quality=legend ), or similar,and let players figure out how they want to arrange/sort/search the data.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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@krakkensmacken

that wouldn't be bad.  I hate having to search multiple npc's for something. putting it on npc vendors across instanced EK's would make manual searching horrible.

there's a reason we don't have markets any more and have all in one stores, internet aside.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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So, perhaps I was incorrect but I thought you could not travel to an EK with a specific character while they were in a campaign. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems the current economic model seems to be;

a) gather resources to craft profession specific items in a campaign

stock pile said items in the spirit bank

hope you get a decent ranking thus can keep a larger percentage of crafted items

turn that percentage of items into raw capitol using EK trading cities between campaigns

Us that capitol to buy items and runes to progress your character

 

 

 

This seems overly complicated, and also completely neglects characters that play in the dregs that cannot import items made through ek progression into campaigns.

Personally I think they need to implement a way to safely trade in campaigns, not just eks, as trading and crafting are going to be vital to a war machine, not just spoils from a campaign.

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5 hours ago, Vonsnazzy said:

So, perhaps I was incorrect but I thought you could not travel to an EK with a specific character while they were in a campaign. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems the current economic model seems to be;

a) gather resources to craft profession specific items in a campaign

stock pile said items in the spirit bank

hope you get a decent ranking thus can keep a larger percentage of crafted items

turn that percentage of items into raw capitol using EK trading cities between campaigns

Us that capitol to buy items and runes to progress your character

 

 

 

This seems overly complicated, and also completely neglects characters that play in the dregs that cannot import items made through ek progression into campaigns.

Personally I think they need to implement a way to safely trade in campaigns, not just eks, as trading and crafting are going to be vital to a war machine, not just spoils from a campaign.

Bold is where you are wrong.  Once things are in your spirit bank, they are fully accessible in your EK.  The gates are getting things in and out of campaigns, thus the limits on spirit bank transfers.

Some campaigns will let you pull things out while in them.  That's not really an issue because if you pull stuff out, it may cost you the world because you don't have enough in world resources to win.

It's pulling things into worlds for more advantage that is the major gate.

 

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