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Experimentation Roll Difficulty


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In the wipe and start over cycle i am seeing one thing that is quite glaring. When crafting we now have a slider for the assembly roll based upon skill and quality of materials. As you move up in quality it gets harder to make the assembly roll. It works quite well and feels natural.

With the experimentation rolls this is really a shock now. A final combine on a Spirit axe is 45.

It is 45 with a grey poor set of materials. And 45 with a set of legendary materials, that makes it a slew of failures when you are starting out, and quite unfun..

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Could this be addressed in a future patch? Maybe take the code from the assembly change and roll it over to the experimentation rolls as well?

Edited by srathor
Changed picture and cleaned up spacing.
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It really feels like the quality of the matter should impact the complexity and chance of failure. 

If I am trying to make a grey rune hammer, and I have 12 pips .. I can't use them all. 

Maybe we should see some sort of Bonus added when your trained pips out pace the possible pips in an item? 

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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The obvious rejoinder is that novice crafters shouldn't be using legendary materials...

In real life, I do blacksmithing.  And one of the first things that you learn is that different types of  iron and steel vary dramatically both in terms of how difficult they are to work with and how good a doo-dad you are able to make.  And, regretfully, in most cases, the types of steel that produce the best quality knives / armor / what have you are also the one's that are the hardest to work with on the forge.  (The same qualities that make for a really good knife also means that the metal doesn't move easily on the forge).  So, to me at least, having an approximation of this system in game is a really good thing.  It makes things more realistic and it will help separate the good crafters from the bad crafter.

In a similar vein 

Maybe we should see some sort of Bonus added when your trained pips out pace the possible pips in an item? 

Part of what makes one a "good" crafter is keeping the right balance between your investment in Experimentation Pips, Experimentation Success, and Assembly success.  I don't know about you guys, but half the reason that I am busy crafting right now is trying to figure out the algorithms that define product quality so I'll be in a better position to get this all "right" come launch.  (Yesterday, I deliberately crafted a whole slew of knives without a leadership buff / prior to investing in training and then repeated the same with a much higher skill).  The resulting knives were a bunch worse than I could have crafted, but the data was really useful...

Personally, I don't like the never ending series of nerfs that people keep asking for...

At the end of the day, I want to be one of the best crafters on the server but they way things are going there won't be anything to differentiate what I can do from anyone else because we keep dumbing things down and making it easier and easier and easier...

 

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"The cinnabar is a lie"

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It is the same experimentation roll difficulty for both poor and legendary mats. 

By doing it that way you just make the skills gain  feel useless till you get to the "proper" level.  And when it is not running at 10x speed it will be back to miserable failure after failure for months at a time. 

I am not asking for a nerf, I want harder materials to be at the proper level for their function. If you do not have the skill for such then they should be quite troublesome. But grey materials should also feel like they are not just impossible to work with. 

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Well to be honest I don't mind how it is, you have a choice, beeline those tasty experiment pips OR do a more even mix between pips AND experimentation chance. For grey's you get a max of 6 pips, so at start you would be looking to get your experiment chance around 30+ then look at 4-6 pips. Otherwise crafters will just focus pips all day everyday.

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On 6/3/2018 at 6:39 AM, narsille said:

The obvious rejoinder is that novice crafters shouldn't be using legendary materials...

Who said anything about novice crafters using legendary materials?

The point is that early game crafters fail constantly when experimenting with poor quality materials. That's because the skill requirement is the same as legendary (45 on many final combines). 

The skill requirement on poor materials should be lower than the requirement on legendary and it should scale appropriately. 

 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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2 minutes ago, blazzen said:

The point is that early game crafters fail constantly when experimenting with poor quality materials. That's because the skill requirement is the same as legendary (45 on many final combines). 

The skill requirement on poor materials should be lower than the requirement on legendary and it should scale appropriately. 

Boo-hoo-hoo

My life isn't perfect.  Sometimes I fail.   

The best in life isn't given to me on day one...

I have been grinding rune tools for my guild nonstop since (shortly) after 5.6 launched

I am not noticing the constant failures that you seem to be experiencing.  

For the first few days, folks were using basic and intermediate tools.  Once folks were up to, say, 4-6 pips with compensating Experimentation success, rune tool product started up in earnest.

And yes, I get a decent number of failures still if I am rolling 6 or 8 pips at a time, but that comes with the territory.  

 

 

 

 

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FWIW, on Saturday I keep track of my successes, etc making various rune tools.

I'll attach some partial records

Runestones

Quality Experimentation Difficulty Build Complexity Base Pips Result Final Delta
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Moderate 45 5
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Moderate 45 5
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Great 57 17
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Great 57 17
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Good 55 15
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Moderate 45 5
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Good 55 15
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Success 42 2
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Good 55 15
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Amazing 61 21
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Success 42 2
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Good 55 15
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Success 42 2
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Amazing 61 21
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Great 57 17
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Moderate 45 5
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Success 42 2
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Amazing 61 21
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Good 55 15
Common 30.25 15 1 40 6 Success 42 2
Uncommon 30.25 15 1 40 7 Moderate 46 6
Uncommon 30.25 15 1 40 7 Good 58 18
Uncommon 30.25 15 1 40 7 Good 58 18

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"The cinnabar is a lie"

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Sigils

Quality Experimentation Difficulty Build Complexity Base Pips 50% Bonus Result Final Delta
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Failure 0.094 0
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Failure 0.094 0
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Failure 0.094 0
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Success 0.104 0.01
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Success 0.104 0.01
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Success 0.104 0.01
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Success 0.104 0.01
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Success 0.104 0.01
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Success 0.104 0.01
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Moderate 0.115 0.021
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Good 0.151 0.057
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Good 0.151 0.057
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Good 0.151 0.057
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Good 0.151 0.057
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Good 0.151 0.057
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Great 0.159 0.065
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Great 0.159 0.065
Common 30.25 20 1 0.094 6 Yes Amazing 0.175 0.081
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Success 75 0
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Success 75 0
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Success 75 0
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Success 75 0
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Success 75 0
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Success 75 0
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Success 75 0
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Moderate 76 1
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Moderate 76 1
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Moderate 76 1
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Good 79 4
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Great 80 5
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Great 80 5
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Great 80 5
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Great 80 5
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Great 80 5
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Great 80 5
Common 30.25 20 1 75 1 Yes Great 80 5

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Knives

Quality Experimentation Difficulty Build Complexity Base Pips 50% Bonus Result Final Delta
Common 30.25 45 1 6.25 6 Yes Moderate 19.071 12.821
Common 30.25 45 1 6.25 6   Success 12.827 6.577
Common 30.25 45 1 6.25 6   Success 12.827 6.577
Common 30.25 45 1 6.25 6   Failure 6.25 0
Common 30.25 45 1 6.25 6   Failure 6.25 0
Common 30.25 45 1 6.25 6   Moderate 19.071 12.821
Common 30.25 45 1 6.25 6   Moderate 19.071 12.821
Common 30.25 45 1 6.25 6   Failure 6.25 0
Common 39.25 45 1 6.25 6   Failure 6.25 0
Common 39.25 45 1 226 6   failure 226 0
Common 39.25 45 1 212 6   Failure 212 0
Common 39.25 45 1 6.25 6   Success 12.827 6.577
Common 39.25 45 1 226 6   Moderate 229 3
Common 39.25 45 1 6.25 6   Success 12.827 6.577
Common 39.25 45 1 6.25 6   Good 41.448 35.198
Common 39.25 45 1 6.25 6   Success 10.238 3.988
Common 39.25 45 1 6.25 6   Failure 6.25 0
Common 39.25 45 1 6.25 6   Failure 6.25 0
Common 39.25 45 1 6.26 6   Moderate 19.071 12.811
Common 30.25 45 1 233 1   Success 234 1
Common 30.25 45 1 216 1   Success 217 1
Common 30.25 45 1 228 1   Success 229 1
Common 30.25 45 1 232 1   Failure 232 0
Common 30.25 45 1 230 1   Moderate 232 2
Common 30.25 45 1 220 1   Failure 220 0
Common 30.25 45 1 226 1   Success 227 1
Common 30.25 45 1 214 1   Failure 214 0
Common 39.25 45 1 226 1   Failure 226 0
Common 39.25 45 1 6.25 1   Failure 6.25 0
Common 39.25 45 1 212 1   Success 212 0
Common 39.25 45 1 226 1   Failure 226 0
Common 39.25 45 1 6.25 1   Success 12.827 6.577
Common 39.25 45 1 218 1   Moderate 220 2
Common 39.25 45 1 220 1   Good 226 6
Common 39.25 45 1 237 1   Success 238 1
Common 39.25 45 1 238 1   Moderate 240 2
Common 39.25 45 1 232 1   Success 233 1
Common 39.25 45 1 233 1   Success 234 1
Common 39.25 45 1 215 1   Great 221 6
Common 39.25 45 1 221 1   Good 227 6
Common 39.25 45 1 213 1   Failure 213 0
Common 39.25 45 1 213 1   Great 220 7
Common 39.25 45 1 236 1   Good 243 7
Common 39.25 45 1 243 1   Success 244 1
Common 39.25 45 1 226 1   Success 227 1
Common 39.25 45 1 227 1   Moderate 229 2

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@narsille Thanks for recording and posting that data, but for the last two tables could you provide some units for the Base/Final columns, or split them into sub-tables by category (Durability/Damage/Crit Chance)? It would make it easier to parse the data.

 

As for the thread at hand, my gut instinct is that crafting with lower quality resources should have a lower difficulty rating, scaling up with the resource quality, as it does with Assembly success rating. The only problem I see with that is that it would make us even less likely to attempt to roll on high-grade materials... We get much less of the higher-grade (epic/legendary) materials, which already means less rolls of the "get better stats" dice, and making these rolls harder would further reduce the chance of good rolls compared to using blue-quality materials. People will still roll on the high-grade resources for that chance of extra-shiny reward, of course, but it has to feel somewhat productive to make those gambles.

TL;DR I agree that experimentation difficulty should scale with the quality of resources used, but it's not as easy as that. I'm not against making the utmost highest-grade weapons and armour extremely rare (in fact I think it's a good thing), but it has to be balanced around carefully lest we end up ignoring those high-grade materials entirely (because the investment isn't worth the reward). 

Edited by Xarrayne

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Yes, xarrayne the difficulty really shows with necro and alchemy...   early on here working with green body parts made for quite a few flawed parts and using a white philo stone in a body hurts the chances bigly...    much better after reaching 45 assembly/50 experiment

 

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8 hours ago, Xarrayne said:

@narsille Thanks for recording and posting that data, but for the last two tables could you provide some units for the Base/Final columns, or split them into sub-tables by category (Durability/Damage/Crit Chance)? It would make it easier to parse the data.

Sorry about that...

You can actually derive that info from Base (Starting value)

However, I'll start coding this more explicitly.

 

 

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On 6/4/2018 at 8:49 AM, narsille said:

For the first few days, folks were using basic and intermediate tools.  Once folks were up to, say, 4-6 pips with compensating Experimentation success, rune tool product started up in earnest.

The first few days will equal the first few weeks when we don't have 10x skill training. That seems like a long time for a crafter to be playing the frustration game when using low quality materials yet still lacking the skills to successfully experiment on them because there's no difficulty scale with differing quality. 

14 hours ago, Xarrayne said:

As for the thread at hand, my gut instinct is that crafting with lower quality resources should have a lower difficulty rating, scaling up with the resource quality, as it does with Assembly success rating. The only problem I see with that is that it would make us even less likely to attempt to roll on high-grade materials... We get much less of the higher-grade (epic/legendary) materials, which already means less rolls of the "get better stats" dice, and making these rolls harder would further reduce the chance of good rolls compared to using blue-quality materials. People will still roll on the high-grade resources for that chance of extra-shiny reward, of course, but it has to feel somewhat productive to make those gambles.

TL;DR I agree that experimentation difficulty should scale with the quality of resources used, but it's not as easy as that. I'm not against making the utmost highest-grade weapons and armour extremely rare (in fact I think it's a good thing), but it has to be balanced around carefully lest we end up ignoring those high-grade materials entirely (because the investment isn't worth the reward). 

High end materials don't necessarily have to get more difficult than they are now. It could just scale downward in some cases. 

For example, rune axes are a 45 skill level. Legendary could be 45, Epic 40, Rare 35, Uncommon 30, Common 25, Poor 20. 

Components that already have a very low skill requirement (such as stitched leather which if I recall is a base 5) would probably have to scale upwards with quality but it could be on a scale of 5 - 25 which still doesn't make it that difficult. 

The early crafting game is pretty painful and Crowfall really needs crafters to stick around to make the whole game loop work. We don't want to run them off due to frustration during the new player experience. 

 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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57 minutes ago, blazzen said:

The first few days will equal the first few weeks when we don't have 10x skill training. That seems like a long time for a crafter to be playing the frustration game when using low quality materials yet still lacking the skills to successfully experiment on them because there's no difficulty scale with differing quality. 

So what?

I think that you're way too tied up with the rolls that you get.  The actual challenge here - the thing that makes things interesting - is understanding the specifics of the crafting system and doing the best that you can subject to those constraints.

 

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"The cinnabar is a lie"

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42 minutes ago, narsille said:

So what?

I think that you're way too tied up with the rolls that you get.  The actual challenge here - the thing that makes things interesting - is understanding the specifics of the crafting system and doing the best that you can subject to those constraints.

You haven't really made clear why you are opposed to material quality having an impact on experiment difficulty.

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12 minutes ago, narsille said:

So what?

I think that you're way too tied up with the rolls that you get.  The actual challenge here - the thing that makes things interesting - is understanding the specifics of the crafting system and doing the best that you can subject to those constraints.

 

What do you mean, "So what"? How many gamers these days do you think will last multiple weeks of frustration before moving on? Not many. It becomes a player retention issue in a niche subset of players (crafters) that this game needs for the game loop to work. 

The "well it's only bad early game" answer is not acceptable to me. Early game needs to pull people in NOT frustrate them. 

I think we just have a very different way of looking at this but least I understand where you're coming from now. 

You're willing to accept the constraints imposed by the system even if they're not ideal and make the best of them. I look at issues with the system, do not accept these issues, and then seek to improve them. 

Sometimes it's better to accept things that are out of your control and move on so I do not fault your outlook. Luckily this development team is the best and listens to player feedback. There have been MANY instances where I brought something up only to see it addressed within weeks of making the suggestion. That's why I keep coming back for more. 

 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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