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Ussiah

Armor Bonus Change

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Currently Dexterity adds armor bonus. For some classes this seems like too many good things. Allowing DPS to get more armor ontop of more damage and more crit.

Recommend switching Armor Bonus to Constitution based instead.

Even without adding another bonus to Dex, the dex based classes would still take it.

Another option would be to add a small sprint modifier to dex.

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You'd have to seriously rework armor resistances to do it, and you'd lose the bleeding resist hole dexers have.

I think there is value in dex as mitigation, and we know rng mitigation like an evade stat isn't much fun. Dex would objectively inferior to str for every case without the defensive component. Giving mitigation to con and dodge time reduction to dex might work but that would open a whole other can of worms and require an upending of the combat system to support it and require dodge to get some iframes (which it needs already imo)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ussiah said:

Currently Dexterity adds armor bonus. For some classes this seems like too many good things. Allowing DPS to get more armor ontop of more damage and more crit.

Recommend switching Armor Bonus to Constitution based instead.

Even without adding another bonus to Dex, the dex based classes would still take it.

Another option would be to add a small sprint modifier to dex.

Makes sense to me. Dexterity gives everything. However, I heard there is some sort of limit to armor bonus from dexterity in 5.6. Haven't confirmed it, but maybe the devs already acknowledged this as a problem and fixed it.

Edited by MJayed

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Its broken in the current build. Be a good time to "fix it" and make it con instead xD

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

You'd have to seriously rework armor resistances to do it, and you'd lose the bleeding resist hole dexers have.

I think there is value in dex as mitigation, and we know rng mitigation like an evade stat isn't much fun. Dex would objectively inferior to str for every case without the defensive component. Giving mitigation to con and dodge time reduction to dex might work but that would open a whole other can of worms and require an upending of the combat system to support it and require dodge to get some iframes (which it needs already imo)

Honestly I think there are too many iframes as is.

 

And what do you mean lose the bleed hole? Theyd still be just as bleed prone as is now.

Edited by Ussiah

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4 hours ago, Ussiah said:

Honestly I think there are too many iframes as is.

 

And what do you mean lose the bleed hole? Theyd still be just as bleed prone as is now.

If dex has to get resists from con, dex has to take con and gets bleed resists as well.

Also, dodge as a mobility-only mechanism makes its use as a defensive tool kind of pointless, specifically for the short-dodging races. We literally only use it for mobility, not to actually dodge attacks because the short dodges are, quite frankly, useless for dodging attacks. I don't want to go off track here, but the utility of dodge as a defensive tool would be greatly increased if it actually dodged things. Right now we use it to chase each other around in melee because there's no other reason to use it.

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Dex doesn't have to take the resists from con, but I wouldn't care if it did.....the bleed defense is a JOKE.

Dex gets 3 awesome stats currently. Why do dps classes need MORE armor? They are already super strong(Ranger/assassin/duelist).

Strength only gets 2 even if its a major.

 

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On 5/31/2018 at 12:52 AM, PopeUrban said:

Also, dodge as a mobility-only mechanism makes its use as a defensive tool kind of pointless, specifically for the short-dodging races. We literally only use it for mobility, not to actually dodge attacks because the short dodges are, quite frankly, useless for dodging attacks. I don't want to go off track here, but the utility of dodge as a defensive tool would be greatly increased if it actually dodged things. Right now we use it to chase each other around in melee because there's no other reason to use it.

If you want dodge to be iFrames then ACE will have to normalize all the dodges to be same CD/distance. Which I'm definitely not against, but it would be a balancing nightmare to have different length dodges and dodge CD's. Not to mention some race/class combos get shafted, like nethari confessor who currently is already low on mobility being FORCED to waste their mobility and reposition just to dodge some attack. Forcing is not a good thing in PvP. If dodges were GW2 like, then I'd be fine with it since all the iFrames become normalized.

 

On the dex debate, I totally agree with moving armor bonus off dex. Crit damage/chance are already massively powerful stats (that scale % based mind you), whereas Con is almost a useless stat right now. I like the idea behind giving all the classes more of an incentive to min/max through different stats for different playstyles/builds. It would make an interesting dynamic where the DPS classes actually need to have a trade-off for more tankiness. Of which trade-offs are extremely lacking in this game right now. 

Having players make tough choices about where to spend stat points is a good thing. Having players only put points into Dex because it's simply the most effective is boring and bad.

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3 hours ago, Jjusticar said:

It would make an interesting dynamic where the DPS classes actually need to have a trade-off for more tankiness. Of which trade-offs are extremely lacking in this game right now. 

Having players make tough choices about where to spend stat points is a good thing. Having players only put points into Dex because it's simply the most effective is boring and bad.

You said it better than I did. I can't imagine ever not picking Dex if thats my main stat, but I constantly consider taking dex on my cleric ONLY because of the armor bonus. Every class should have this inner struggle, not just the non-dex ones.

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Shadowbane split the armor bonus between str and dex. If I remember correctly it was based on armor type. I prefer a mixed system where one class dex is the armor mitigation and another class it's strength.

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3 hours ago, Teufel said:

Shadowbane split the armor bonus between str and dex. If I remember correctly it was based on armor type. I prefer a mixed system where one class dex is the armor mitigation and another class it's strength.

Definitely an option. However, I feel like Con needs a little more oomph and reason to skill it. Just having HP on it right now is pretty lackluster imo

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On 6/13/2018 at 12:38 PM, Jjusticar said:

If you want dodge to be iFrames then ACE will have to normalize all the dodges to be same CD/distance. Which I'm definitely not against, but it would be a balancing nightmare to have different length dodges and dodge CD's. Not to mention some race/class combos get shafted, like nethari confessor who currently is already low on mobility being FORCED to waste their mobility and reposition just to dodge some attack. Forcing is not a good thing in PvP. If dodges were GW2 like, then I'd be fine with it since all the iFrames become normalized.

 

On the dex debate, I totally agree with moving armor bonus off dex. Crit damage/chance are already massively powerful stats (that scale % based mind you), whereas Con is almost a useless stat right now. I like the idea behind giving all the classes more of an incentive to min/max through different stats for different playstyles/builds. It would make an interesting dynamic where the DPS classes actually need to have a trade-off for more tankiness. Of which trade-offs are extremely lacking in this game right now. 

Having players make tough choices about where to spend stat points is a good thing. Having players only put points into Dex because it's simply the most effective is boring and bad.

Nonsense. You can use the actual animation times for the iframes, same way GW2 does it. If you appear to be dodging, you're dodging. Dodges are already normalized for recharge and distance/animation speed.

Having iframes on a longer dodge with a longer cooldown is not "getting shafted"

It is a buildcrafting decision. Do you take

A: The more spammable but shorter range dodge.

B: The longer distance but ALSO longer duration iframe with the longer coodlown.

C: The literal teleport that is both short duration and long distance, but with a long cooldown and very short travel time.

Choosing to use a dodge for the iframe or for mobility is a choice. Choices in your combat tools is a good thing. Currently there is no choice. All dodges are good for is mobility, and in a practical sense some are better than others. ACE's metric of 'distance = recharge' is insufficient to make theoretically useful short dodges actually useful in a practical sense. You either dodge once if versus another short dodger, or dodge twice if you're a short dodger against a long dodger. There is nothing practically useful about the short dodges. In the Iframe scenario there would be. You either get the dodge that is better at mobility, or the dodge that is better at in-combat reaction due to being avaliable more often as a response. Now you have a choice whether to use a dodge for mobility or for defense as the situation demands.

Currently the short dodges just feel tacked on to the system, and they aren't used to "dodge" anything but melee attacks. because of the necessity of wider ability cones, the presence of lag, unit collision, and a design that prizes mass combat, I can't really see a down side here.

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8 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Nonsense. You can use the actual animation times for the iframes, same way GW2 does it. If you appear to be dodging, you're dodging. Dodges are already normalized for recharge and distance/animation speed.

Having iframes on a longer dodge with a longer cooldown is not "getting shafted"

It is a buildcrafting decision. Do you take

Except it isn't. A majority of your buildcrafting power comes from racial bloodlines and racial abilities, not dodges. Plus thr animation time differences on the dodges are somewhat negligible compared to how slow skills happen in this game.

And it actually is, especially with longer dodges. Your forcing a player to potentially get way out of position just to use an of iFrame. Not to mention you use iFrames to dodge single skills or attacks so having a longer iFrame really does nothing for you if you arent dodging more than what a shorter dodge would iFrame...which will happen most of the time. So you're dodging the same amount of stuff, while also just being put much more out of position than races with short dodges. 

Youre may be adding "choice" to dodging but it will make combat feel worse unless you normalize all dodges, and no the current dodges are not normalized. I can guarantee long dodges will not be used in the change your suggesting. 

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19 hours ago, Jjusticar said:

Except it isn't. A majority of your buildcrafting power comes from racial bloodlines and racial abilities, not dodges. Plus thr animation time differences on the dodges are somewhat negligible compared to how slow skills happen in this game.

And it actually is, especially with longer dodges. Your forcing a player to potentially get way out of position just to use an of iFrame. Not to mention you use iFrames to dodge single skills or attacks so having a longer iFrame really does nothing for you if you arent dodging more than what a shorter dodge would iFrame...which will happen most of the time. So you're dodging the same amount of stuff, while also just being put much more out of position than races with short dodges. 

Youre may be adding "choice" to dodging but it will make combat feel worse unless you normalize all dodges, and no the current dodges are not normalized. I can guarantee long dodges will not be used in the change your suggesting. 

We'll have to agree to disagree here. On every single ranged character I would definately opt for the long dodge.

Dodge feels bad NOW because of this issue. Dude swings a sword at me. I dodge past him so i can stab him in the kidney because custard with enemy targeting and being mobile is generally legit strategy in a reticle targeting pvp situation. Mid-dodge I still get hit by the sword. That dodge feels bad. It isn't useful for dodging. It's useful for chasing, and its useful for creating distance, but it isn't useful for dodging.

What I propose is, literally "If I'm using dodge I actually dodge." and nothing more.

How that isn't an improvement to the fell of combat I don't get but hey everybody has an opinion.

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

What I propose is, literally "If I'm using dodge I actually dodge." and nothing more.

How that isn't an improvement to the fell of combat I don't get but hey everybody has an opinion.

Yes, that's literally the definition of an iFrame. And like i said, I support that. I don't support the idea with different length and CD dodges because short dodges will get way more value out of this change.

You said the iFrame Will last as long as the animation. But the animation time between long and short dodges is negligible most of the time, meaning that even if you have a long dodge you will not really be avoiding anything extra for your longer CD. On top of ability animations being generally slow and a lot of powerful abilities being gated behind combos, you're only going to use your iFrame from your dodge to dodge one ability really. Meaning you kind of get double value out of short dodges for iFrames, and iFrames are infinitely stronger than getting a little extra distance on your dodge

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TBH the value proposition for both long dodges is already huge, and part of the point here is that short dodges get more value from the change. In the current state of the game, short dodges quite frankly kinda suck, even though you can use them twice as often.

Long dodges aren't simply a case of "A little extra distance" for the templates best equipped to use them. They're a case of being able to fire off one or two extra abilities before the short dodging guy can close, or the ability to be (on a full charge of 2) twice as far away while the short dodge guy can only close half the distance and then wait ten seconds while you light him up.

Long dodges have significantly more value than i think you're attaching to them IMO.

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Personally i think if you attach iFrames to a dodge, you will use your dodge for iFrames 90% of the time simply because they are so much stronger than mobility. But yeh, we can agree to disagree.

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