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Going beyond progression


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Hey all! Kinda new to actually posting in the forums and what not. So hoping I did enough research before coming here.

Currently what it feels like to me is you have this cool system that makes you want to log in, and even participate in collecting/crafting/fighting. However, there is no sense of progress post each campaign. To me this means that aside from getting gear or items to put in your spirit bank there isn't all that much going on. I'm assuming there are rewards for actually winning the war and maybe joining out numbered sides to turn the tide of the war. 

At some point (most of us GW2 players have been there) your sitting pretty with almost the best gear, you've bested the best mobs, and you've fought in the war for hours. I haven't really found a good answer what you do at this point. I guess you could go participate in another campaign for rewards to add, but why not give us something to grind/fight for.

My idea is pretty simple and maybe not the answer, but maybe it opens a dialogue about it. I don't want levels, nor a way to over power an opponent. However, at the end of a campaign why not add a moment where your vassal you spent maybe a month or two with, is converted? All that xp you earned on that vassal could go to your main "body" offering a chance to go beyond the limits of the hardcap. Now before you bite my head off lets take a moment. In FFXI you had a system like this. You'd grind at max level to basically get micro progression. It's not much, I think an example would be like 5hp for a campaign, or 5 campaigns to increase a base stat by 1. Yes it had an impact, but it was so small most of the time it was hard to even tell.

I mean your spending so much time with a vassal I just think it would feel really rewarding to say at the end of the campaign your stronger thanks to the time you put in. Thanks for reading hope to see a good conversation about it!

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"vessel" not "vassel". Think ship your spirit rides in, not someone who bends a knee. :D

You do get to keep your progression from worlds, in the form of XP earned to the level cap of 30. 

They are working I believe as I type, on making the vessels move between worlds rather than be isolated to them, so in the future you will be able to step through a world gate with your vessel and move it to your EK for example.

That will open up the progression in the form of getting your hands on the best crafted vessel you can, finding the best disciplines for it, and then leveling it to level 30, and keeping it. 

There is a bit of debate on the decay of vessels, but they seem to be leaning towards vessels having no decay on death. It it lands there, once you build your favorite vessel, it will be yours to keep forever.  You may not be able to take it to every campaign because of campaign level restrictions, but you will have if for you EK.

I am totally against anything that goes over hard CAP's, or systems that let you improve a single vessel indefinitely. 

They have not worked out the CW end rewards, but there is the ability to progress by building an EK empire/city/palace, made from materials earned in CW play.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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Ha! I might try to make vassal a thing next :D

Interesting I had no idea they had all that planned! Personally I'm sad that vessals stick around a bit more. I liked when they went away with the campaign. Still good news over all for me. 

My big concern is at some point your going to be max level, your walking in that dank armor, your EK is going to be "perfect", and there will be a sense of "How do I get better from here?". I mean, don't get me wrong the reason I love crowfall is because there is no traditional grinding or permanent levels. In that same breath though I worry about getting to that point, even if it takes months and months you will hit that point. 

I think other than the 5 minutes to log on and spend your points a player in that situation would be left wanting. I know I would be.

 

Edited by ZaoRise
I was extra redundant
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9 minutes ago, ZaoRise said:

Ha! I might try to make vassal a thing next :D

Interesting I had no idea they had all that planned! Personally I'm sad that vassals stick around a bit more. I liked when they went away with the campaign. Still good news over all for me. 

My big concern is at some point your going to be max level, your walking in that dank armor, your EK is going to be "perfect", and there will be a sense of "How do I get better from here?". I mean, don't get me wrong the reason I love crowfall is because there is no traditional grinding or permanent levels. In that same breath though I worry about getting to that point, even if it takes months and months you will hit that point. 

Also don't get me wrong I absolutely love the new skill tree and the system that is going with it. I think other than the 5 minutes to log on and spend your points a player in that situation would be left wanting. I know I would be.

 

Vassals are a thing.  You can make people vassals in your EK so they can plunk down parcels and buildings.

Vessels and maybe equipped disciplines are the ONLY thing that are planned to not decay.  You will always be looking for better/replacement gear.

Also, the passive training will take literally over a decade to get through.  So you will always be improving something from that angle. 

Also, with 30 levels and 3 points per level, you will always be on the hunt for something a bit more different.  Perhaps you have a perfect swordsman vessel, but it's poorly made socks for support, so now you want to build out the perfect support vessel, then the perfect human/fae/ or whatever support vessel. Think of them like champions in LoL or other MOBA game. Master one, then progress comes from mastering another.  There will always be something to get better at.

Sure if you limit yourself to a single vessel your whole career, maybe you can feel stuck.  But even then, suddenly after 6 months a crafter makes a better base vessel of the same type you use that you get your hands on.  Now your back at the level/discipline hunt to make full use of that thing.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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7 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Vassals are a thing.  You can make people vassals in your EK so they can plunk down parcels and buildings.

Vessels and maybe equipped disciplines are the ONLY thing that are planned to not decay.  You will always be looking for better/replacement gear.

Also, the passive training will take literally over a decade to get through.  So you will always be improving something from that angle. 

Also, with 30 levels and 3 points per level, you will always be on the hunt for something a bit more different.  Perhaps you have a perfect swordsman vessel, but it's poorly made socks for support, so now you want to build out the perfect support vessel, then the perfect human/fae/ or whatever support vessel. Think of them like champions in LoL or other game. Master one, then progress comes from mastering another.  There will always be something to get better at.

Sure if you limit yourself to a single vessel your whole career, maybe you can feel stuck.  But even then, suddenly after 6 months a crafter makes a better base vessel of the same type you use that you get your hands on.  Now your back at the level/discipline hunt to make full use of that thing.

 

 I meant calling Vessels Vassels so I don't look completely dumb :D

The passive training is perfect. It's that feel good log in and progress without doing anything feeling. Gets people logging in. I get that you always have to get gear which is great as well. That includes the vessels though. 

Like I mentioned earlier, most of us have been to that point where we have our vessels/alts leveled and geared. Your home/residence/EK is where you want it. You got that dank gear (including the vessels). Where do you go from there? I'm not talking hundreds of hours in, but like 2000+. 

Using your league example: You've put the time in. Learned the basics of the game and champions. You know all the roles well, and your particular lane very well. (Not me btw I suck at league for the record. Gold4life) So you start climbing the ranks in ranked to keep challenging yourself, or maybe you play 1000s of games of ARAM/soloQ. Maybe you even become a one-trick. 

Crowfall is a hair different though. As far as I know there is no ranking system to "climb". After months of campaigns (even with the different rule sets) I will bet a fortune(2$) there will be a sense of burnout for a part of the population. GW2 added alliance points I think it was called. ESO added in champion levels. League removed their level cap eventually to reward players who put in more time as well with aesthetics. Planetside 2 is actually the better comparison, but they have certs and passives that are incredibly slow to earn without double xp.

I guess a way to reword my thoughts for crowfall would be: "What physical progression could we make occur to your crow that would be a consequence of continuous play while not becoming the focus or necessary?"

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32 minutes ago, ZaoRise said:

 

 I meant calling Vessels Vassels so I don't look completely dumb :D

The passive training is perfect. It's that feel good log in and progress without doing anything feeling. Gets people logging in. I get that you always have to get gear which is great as well. That includes the vessels though. 

Like I mentioned earlier, most of us have been to that point where we have our vessels/alts leveled and geared. Your home/residence/EK is where you want it. You got that dank gear (including the vessels). Where do you go from there? I'm not talking hundreds of hours in, but like 2000+. 

Using your league example: You've put the time in. Learned the basics of the game and champions. You know all the roles well, and your particular lane very well. (Not me btw I suck at league for the record. Gold4life) So you start climbing the ranks in ranked to keep challenging yourself, or maybe you play 1000s of games of ARAM/soloQ. Maybe you even become a one-trick. 

Crowfall is a hair different though. As far as I know there is no ranking system to "climb". After months of campaigns (even with the different rule sets) I will bet a fortune(2$) there will be a sense of burnout for a part of the population. GW2 added alliance points I think it was called. ESO added in champion levels. League removed their level cap eventually to reward players who put in more time as well with aesthetics. Planetside 2 is actually the better comparison, but they have certs and passives that are incredibly slow to earn without double xp.

I guess a way to reword my thoughts for crowfall would be: "What physical progression could we make occur to your crow that would be a consequence of continuous play while not becoming the focus or necessary?"

Same as league. 

Play the hard worlds, collect wins and bragging rights. Relics are things your supposed to be able to find/win in worlds to pull back to your EK, so I suspect showing those off will be a thing.

 Stock up on loots so you can buy what you want when new releases of race/class/disciplines and other things show up. That's what happens in League.  New champ is released and that champ is in 80% of your games for a month.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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9 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Same as league. 

Play the hard worlds, collect wins and bragging rights. Relics are things your supposed to be able to find/win in worlds to pull back to your EK, so I suspect showing those off will be a thing.

 Stock up on loots so you can buy what you want when new releases of race/class/disciplines and other things show up. That's what happens in League.  New champ is released and that champ is in 80% of your games for a month.

Why not have something that feels more direct? If it minimally affects game play, but eventually makes a difference that feels rewarding as well.

I get what your saying just thought it'd be cool idea to throw out there :D

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2 hours ago, ZaoRise said:

 

Why not have something that feels more direct? If it minimally affects game play, but eventually makes a difference that feels rewarding as well.

I get what your saying just thought it'd be cool idea to throw out there :D

Because capless gameplay affecting perks are desctructive to the long term balance of PvP. Functionally there is a cap on power progression through skills, a fluctuating cap on your gear (your gear will break, you will need to replace it) and a collectathon element to getting "perfect roll" legendary vessels for all of your character slots. The time to max the related race, class, combat, and (if applicable) harvesting/crafting trees are the skill cap for a reason. The fact that they max out is also the reason you can just train more trees. After a certain point advancement is designed to stop being vertical because endless vertical progression makes for a pvp game that gets progressively harder and harder to fill with new players over time.

On top of that, the EKs are the long term advancement model. They're the trophy rooms and permanent advancement model. Your quest is one for status, but its one of SOCIAL status rather than LEADERBOARD status. Most sandbox games revolve around this axiom. You're not in the game to rack up numbers on a sheet somewhere. You're in the game to be better than other people at whatever it is you care to be better at. To be the richest, or the most militarily dominant, or hold the largest rental empire, or whatever.

You don't need an endless number to tick up for progression to matter.

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Good points! I love it.

Thanks for the solid feedback. On a personal level I'd still like to see it, but now I can better understand the argument.

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Something that Disgaea did so that you have something to do when your character just cant progress any higher was introduce an 'Item World' where you could enter an item or piece of gear and defeat bosses and other mobs to level and power up the item/gear. I'm sure the Crowfall team has better legal team than me to figure out how they could apply this without 'ripping off' Disgaea(not sure if taking an idea from one game is illegal) but this would be a great way of boosting gear and maybe repairing or adding durability!

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I think the type of progression you refer to will happen mostly at the guild-level in the form of building cities and Eternal Kingdoms. I find it very hard to test Crowfall anymore because I am so eagerly awaiting having permanent structures and winning Campaign Worlds (...also Stoneborn). These things are what set apart my favorite games from games I like, and I have been really wanting another MMO to go after competitive world-building.

Edited by McTan
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Progression and persistence through the cycle of Campaigns is one of the areas I think will determined how successful Crowfall ultimately is, and for how long it is. It is one of the areas where I believe more development is needed, though I admit that we do not yet know everything ACE has place in this area.

That said, there are a few elements we do know about that pertain to progression and persistence, and it has to do with the Eternal Kingdom to Campaign World to Eternal Kingdom Loop. At it's most basic, you:

-Spend some time on Day 1 in your Eternal Kingdom placing assets you acquired with your account package or purchased from the store
-Depart your EK for your first foray into a Camapign World
-Spend a few weeks/months in a mid-range Campaign, emerge victorious and take home to your EK a haul of premium resources
-Back in your EK, use the premium resources you have acquired to craft better weapons and armor
-Join another Campaign, one that allows Imports, bring in the better equipment you have crafted, again win the campaign, exporting more resources including a few Thralls
-Return to your EK, this time using the resources and Thralls to build up your Kingdom's infrastructure
-Go on Campaign again, no Import this time, win once again, with a ruleset reward of a Shrine for use in your EK
-Back to your EK, erect the Shrine, feed it some of the premium resources you acquired earlier, and receive trans-world stat buffs
-Go back to the Campaign Worlds, now with a buff generated by the Shrine in your EK, but against all odds, failure to win
-Back in your EK you spend some time crafting more gear for use in a harsher CW that allows Imports
 

So in this example, there is some form of persistence in terms of the EK and it's impact, both directly and indirectly, on campaign operations. This is largely dependant on how they chose to apply import rules - for example, a Dregs Campaign may be No Import, seemingly breaking the EK-CW loop, but if Shrine and Relic effects are not blocked by these Import rules, then these buffs alone convey some benefit of having one past Campaigns. There are a number of things they could do, exceptionss like this to No Import rules, that would behave similarly - things like disallowing physical items or gear but allowing Blueprints for example.

In terms of progression, over time, many months or years, an EK would eventually reach a state of maximum growth and development. Things like Shrines would require constant feeding to maintain buffs, and there would always be an interest in acquiring more Relics, as in theory, they would provide for more narrow or specific benefits, say a buff to lifesteal versus a more general buff to Attack Power.

So there is some of this, it seems, in there already. But I agree that more would be good, and something more satisfying in the 'Throne War' vein as well.

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