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Tyrannicall

No hope for large scale??

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So we just finished a large scale fight sieging Black Mire and what could of been an incredible fight turned into a massive lagfest. Should we avoid large scale fights and just stick to the small scale for now or is there hope for these bigger fights in the near future??

Edited by Tyrannicall

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If you want large-scale MMO fights you are going to have to go check out Camelot: Unchained. They built a custom game engine that can actually do it, instead of buying an off-the-shelf POS like Unity.

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On 2018-06-09 at 12:57 AM, DocHollidaze said:

If you want large-scale MMO fights you are going to have to go check out Camelot: Unchained. They built a custom game engine that can actually do it, instead of buying an off-the-shelf POS like Unity.

Building your own engine has advantages and disadvantages. Smaller knowledge base, more overhead when it comes to training newcomers with the tech and a significantly smaller ecosystem to draw from are definitely cons. CU’s engine has only been tested with headless clients, so I’m interested in how it performs in reality.

I’m equally interested to see if they can make unity work for a large multiplayer project like this; so far I have yet to see one successful mmo come out on unity.

ACE needs to deliver on the performance front, other wise they suffer the same fate that bless is.

Edited by Helix

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15 hours ago, Helix said:

Building your own engine has advantages and disadvantages. Smaller knowledge base, more overhead when it comes to training newcomers with the tech and a significantly smaller ecosystem to draw from are definitely cons. CU’s engine has only been tested with headless clients, so I’m interested in how it performs in reality.

I’m equally interested to see if they can make unity work for a large multiplayer project like this; so far I have yet to see one successful mmo come out on unity.

ACE needs to deliver on the performance front, other wise they suffer the same fate that bless is.

Performance is pretty vital to games these days and why I am glad CU has focused heavily on making their own engine and doing everything they can to make a game that performs well. Not in insert future development stage, but from day 1. Supposedly their "bot" system or ARC (autonomous remote clients) is harder on their end then normal player clients, but no clue how accurate that. They logged into a server at Dragon Con and showed off 2000+ ARC/players on screen using abilities. Even for popular games, I don't see 2k being a realistic normal event, so if that can be cut down to 250-500-1k players and still work, pretty nice.

Honestly don't know how ACE could pull off anything close with Unity and what they have going so far. The mythical "future optimization" will surely improve things, but there are limits on everything. Hopefully the engineers can pull it off, because a decent looking game with good features aren't going to be enough. If we don't see large scale work, games like Rend with similar elements and being built with small scale in mind will likely pull some players away that might have enjoyed Crowfall.

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Honestly, at this point, I pretty much feel my $1000+ "donation" to CF has been a big mistake, and regret getting the $500 refund from Camelot that I then moved to CF.

If they do manage to fix it I'll be thrilled. I'm going to try and get what fun that I can out of this game when it launches, but I realistically have no faith that ACE will solve the engine problems.

Sadly though, I hate the combat system of Camelot, so I'm kinda screwed either way. With two young children this was probably going to be my last MMO.

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Yeah, performence is the keypoint for the game. I don't think 1000 player battles are fun or tactical organizable in general ( so ultra large battle are no selling point to me, because i think they won't we fun mid/longterm, becasue of randomness and otherstuff which comes with to much players) , but i hope that we can have battles of 50-100 players in crowfall that would be fun and still organizable without losing the overview of the battlefield.


One Ring to Rule them all, One Ring to Find them, One Ring to bring them all an in the darkness and bind them.

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8 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

Honestly, at this point, I pretty much feel my $1000+ "donation" to CF has been a big mistake, and regret getting the $500 refund from Camelot that I then moved to CF.

If they do manage to fix it I'll be thrilled. I'm going to try and get what fun that I can out of this game when it launches, but I realistically have no faith that ACE will solve the engine problems.

Sadly though, I hate the combat system of Camelot, so I'm kinda screwed either way. With two young children this was probably going to be my last MMO.

I backed both as I want ANY game to release with decent quality and worth my future time/money.

Combat is a pretty big deal for me and while I prefer more "action" systems, CF isn't greatly different than a tab/soft lock for me. Might not be able to mindlessly tab and select anyone to hit, but with how powers work, not a lot of skill needed either.

If going with a more traditional system allows CU to pull off players custom building abilities and working together with A.I.R. (Magicka in a MMO with real chances at comboing with others, yes please) along with smoother large scale stuff, might be worth it.

CF's combat isn't terrible, but doesn't do anything special for me either. Don't see it changing much, while CU still has time to work itself out as it seems more ambitious (for better or worse).

8 hours ago, Kreigon said:

Yeah, performence is the keypoint for the game. I don't think 1000 player battles are fun or tactical organizable in general ( so ultra large battle are no selling point to me, because i think they won't we fun mid/longterm, becasue of randomness and otherstuff which comes with to much players) , but i hope that we can have battles of 50-100 players in crowfall that would be fun and still organizable without losing the overview of the battlefield.

If CF can only handle 50-100 in a relatively small space, they will have wasted a lot of time creating a MMO. Then again, the foundation of the game could be tweaked to become more a battleground - arena - battle royale style game rather easily as well. Wouldn't be surprised if it went this way if performance was a major issue. 100-200-500 server population caps could work with tweaks here and there.

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On 6/9/2018 at 12:57 AM, DocHollidaze said:

If you want large-scale MMO fights you are going to have to go check out Camelot: Unchained. They built a custom game engine that can actually do it, instead of buying an off-the-shelf POS like Unity.

I honestly hope this is not the case, than again I believe Rust uses Unity and I dont think I have ever seen a server that accommodates more than 400. It's been a bit since I played it but when I did there were times I played in 200pop servers where the lag was fine and the PvP was plentiful. 

  I have never been a big fan of zerg combat so as long as they can keep the performance smooth even with a smaller player cap, I think the game will still be pretty fun.

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The servers went from crapping out at 45 to 90 in a single patch (5.6). Give them time guys. 

2 hours ago, Hunt said:

I honestly hope this is not the case, than again I believe Rust uses Unity and I dont think I have ever seen a server that accommodates more than 400. It's been a bit since I played it but when I did there were times I played in 200pop servers where the lag was fine and the PvP was plentiful. 

Keep in mind that once runegates come about (as early as 5.7) what we're currently calling a "server" will just be a "zone" within a world cluster. I'm no server engineer but I imagine each of these zones will be on a separate server. The goal for Crowfall sieges is around 100v100 so to get a zone that accomodates around 400 people like Rust would seem to be enough to have 100v100 sieges. 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, blazzen said:

The servers went from crapping out at 45 to 90 in a single patch (5.6). Give them time guys. 

In my experience it doesn't seem that the problem is related to the number of people on the server, but rather to the number of people interacting (fighting) at one time.   With 80 people on the server has been more or less fine.  However once a fairly small (8 on 8) fight starts the performance goes to complete crap (2-5 second message times).  

While I am not super-concerned with it now, the longer it goes on (patch-wise) the more concerned I get, given that this game is supposed to be large-scale combat oriented and currently can't even really handle MOBA-sized engagements without falling apart.   To me, any other features are just icing - but if it can't handle the combat smoothly - the game just won't survive.  I, frankly, don't really understand why this isn't priority 1.

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4 minutes ago, Whoom said:

In my experience it doesn't seem that the problem is related to the number of people on the server, but rather to the number of people interacting (fighting) at one time.   With 80 people on the server has been more or less fine.  However once a fairly small (8 on 8) fight starts the performance goes to complete crap (2-5 second message times).  

While I am not super-concerned with it now, the longer it goes on (patch-wise) the more concerned I get, given that this game is supposed to be large-scale combat oriented and currently can't even really handle MOBA-sized engagements without falling apart.   To me, any other features are just icing - but if it can't handle the combat smoothly - the game just won't survive.  I, frankly, don't really understand why this isn't priority 1.

EU guys reported at 15v15 siege with around 50 on the server with no issues. 

Again, I'm no server engineer but I imagine it's an overall load thing. PVP results in a lot more messages going back and forth to the server than standing still but more people actively playing = more messages overall. 

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1 hour ago, blazzen said:

The servers went from crapping out at 45 to 90 in a single patch (5.6). Give them time guys. 

5.6 was definitely broken performance wise (the reason I only played it one weekend) and 5.7 is certainly playable at times. But not everytime. I don't know what goes on, but I've had fights with 20+ on screen that were playable (not smooth and certainly not performance that would be acceptable for a live game, but still playable), and others that had 1k+ lag spikes that made the whole fight unberable and spoiled the fun for all involved. 

Keep in mind that once runegates come about (as early as 5.7) what we're currently calling a "server" will just be a "zone" within a world cluster. I'm no server engineer but I imagine each of these zones will be on a separate server. The goal for Crowfall sieges is around 100v100 so to get a zone that accomodates around 400 people like Rust would seem to be enough to have 100v100 sieges. 

Runegates had me pretty excited as well, I think it could be a good answer to the performance issue. As long as they can manage to make it work for 200-300 players on screen within a single zone, and make sure to create objetives on CWs that spread people out instead of encouraging everyone to congregate at the same spot, it should go pretty well. 

 

 

Edited by Rikutatis

 

 

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16 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

Honestly, at this point, I pretty much feel my $1000+ "donation" to CF has been a big mistake, and regret getting the $500 refund from Camelot that I then moved to CF.

If they do manage to fix it I'll be thrilled. I'm going to try and get what fun that I can out of this game when it launches, but I realistically have no faith that ACE will solve the engine problems.

Sadly though, I hate the combat system of Camelot, so I'm kinda screwed either way. With two young children this was probably going to be my last MMO.

The combat in CU atm isn’t necessarily the combat that will be in the game; that’s supposedly being worked on.

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8 minutes ago, Helix said:

The combat in CU atm isn’t necessarily the combat that will be in the game; that’s supposedly being worked on.

It could change sure, but not much I'm guessing. The overall design philosophy behind the game's combat is what will dictate that, and is what I mainly have problem with. I'm not keen on playing a game designed for 50 year old people to enjoy but for the lack of anything better I suppose I will.

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7 hours ago, APE said:

I backed both as I want ANY game to release with decent quality and worth my future time/money.

Combat is a pretty big deal for me and while I prefer more "action" systems, CF isn't greatly different than a tab/soft lock for me. Might not be able to mindlessly tab and select anyone to hit, but with how powers work, not a lot of skill needed either.

If going with a more traditional system allows CU to pull off players custom building abilities and working together with A.I.R. (Magicka in a MMO with real chances at comboing with others, yes please) along with smoother large scale stuff, might be worth it.

CF's combat isn't terrible, but doesn't do anything special for me either. Don't see it changing much, while CU still has time to work itself out as it seems more ambitious (for better or worse).

If CF can only handle 50-100 in a relatively small space, they will have wasted a lot of time creating a MMO. Then again, the foundation of the game could be tweaked to become more a battleground - arena - battle royale style game rather easily as well. Wouldn't be surprised if it went this way if performance was a major issue. 100-200-500 server population caps could work with tweaks here and there.

I totalle agree with this. While I vastly prefer action combat (and honestly have a hard time imagining myself playing a tab target these days), CF's combat isn't anything special and the usual skill ceiling present in action combat games is actually very low in CF. 

At first I wasn't concerned at all with CF's persistent performance issues, because all I heard was that performance and optimization were always worked on last, once all systems are in, we'd get there, etc. And that still might be the case. But after seeing CU's approach to performance and how solid (or epic, even) it currently is at a similar stage of development, it does make me wonder. 


 

 

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Performance wise CF seems custarded and I don't know if we will ever see large lag free fights in CF like was promised.  If we do large scale fights and I'm wrong, that's great but Unity is 100% trash so who knows how that's going to turn out. 

CU has some serious issues too but their issues are core design issues.  RvRvR is horrible, tab targeting is outdated, no stealth classes at release, no scout classes at release, no shapeshifter classes at release, there's one other archetype for classes that's also missing at release and the balance issues they are going to face with 30 (eventually) classes is going to be incredible.  Their tech runs fine while the CF tech runs like it's being hosted out of that homeless tent city in Seattle.  


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3 hours ago, mandalore said:

Performance wise CF seems custarded and I don't know if we will ever see large lag free fights in CF like was promised.  If we do large scale fights and I'm wrong, that's great but Unity is 100% trash so who knows how that's going to turn out. 

CU has some serious issues too but their issues are core design issues.  RvRvR is horrible, tab targeting is outdated, no stealth classes at release, no scout classes at release, no shapeshifter classes at release, there's one other archetype for classes that's also missing at release and the balance issues they are going to face with 30 (eventually) classes is going to be incredible.  Their tech runs fine while the CF tech runs like it's being hosted out of that homeless tent city in Seattle.  

Naa unity isn't trash wtf^^, if you know what you are doing, but maybe not the best engine to make a large scale pvp mmorpg. The only mmorpg that was made with unity is albion online afaik. I am curious if ACE really can make it, i think in 2019 we will know the result, i hope they can make it.


One Ring to Rule them all, One Ring to Find them, One Ring to bring them all an in the darkness and bind them.

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