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blazzen

Myrm Design Issues and Proposed Solutions

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Myrmidon Design Issues:

  1. The main issue with the Myrmidon Class is the Crash Mechanic is for the most part an all or nothing proposition (aside from scent of blood which is lackluster at 25%). 
    1. Because the main way to make a Myrm crash is to CC them basically every Myrmidon uses Juggernaut discipline for anti CC. There aren't many viable Myrmidon builds when one major disc is a requirement. What will happen when discs are crafted/mob dropped? 
    2. The half giant iframe is extremely good for crash mitigation such that other races are rarely played. 
    3. Because it is an all or nothing timing based mechanic any amount of lag really inhibits a Myrmidon's ability to flat out play the class. 500-1000 MS lag blips can mean death. 
    4. Supports have a difficult time healing the Myrmidon because they either take no damage or a huge chunk of damage all at once. 
    5. Myrmidon's are a 1 trick pony. They live and die with berserk and have no way to self heal once they have taken damage due to a crash. Compare that to champion who has both ultimate warrior heal and hateful regeneration. Many opponents to Myrmidon claim that Berserk up time at 75% is too high but if it's any lower the myrmidon becomes too weak. 

Solutions: I'm calling this "the best defense is a good offense". 

  1. Berserk would still function the same way as far as healing damage done every second while berserk, but the crash calculation would be amount of damage done vs. amount of damage received. Scent of blood would be able to lower any amount of crash damage taken by 50%. Taking more damage while berserk would still provide a damage bonus to the Myrmidon which should help them mitigate heavy damage / focus fire somewhat by dealing increased damage. Examples below. 
    1. Myrmidon receives 1000 damage but deals 500 damage. Myrmidon takes a 500 damage crash.
      1. Myrmidon receives 1000 damage, deals 500 damage, but strikes a bleeding target within 3 seconds of the crash happening thus triggering scent of blood. Scent of blood reduces crash damage taken by 50% (needs to be increase from 25%)  so the overall crash damage is 250. ((1000-500)*0.5)=250. 
    2. Myrmidon receives 1000 damage and deals 1000 damage. Crash is neutral and results in 0 damage or healing.
    3. Myrmidon receives 500 damage and deals 1000 damage. Myrmidon receives a 500 point HEAL over time instead of crash damage. 
  2. Crash damage or healing comes in the form of a 10 second over time effect that ticks once per second instead of all at once. This would work similarly to the Minotaur racial Berserk in this fashion. This will be needed so that iframes can't completely negate the crash damage. This will also allow for healing debuffs and absorbers to impact this myrm mechanic. 

Here's what else would need to change, IMO, with this change.

  1. Berserk uptime would need to be lowered from 75% to 50%. Berserk should last 10 seconds with a 20 second cooldown. If the crash DoT is 10 seconds, then Berserk should last 10 seconds and then be on cooldown for 10 seconds so that the DoT happens while berserk is unavailable so that Berserk can't be used again to mitigate the crash DoT. 
  2. Pulverize will need a bit of love since it no longer mitigates crash damage. Lower the fury cost, increase the damage and/or make it have a knockdown if you fully charge it and hit. 
  3. Raging bull ultimate cost could probably come down from 1000 to the 500 range, similar to the Champion. It could be used to mitigate SOME crash damage with the iframe but Minotaur Champion's can already do this. 

If you look back at the list of issues at the top of the post this solves most of them. 

  1. It's no longer an all or nothing mechanic. 
  2. HG iframe is still good in that it could prevent a couple ticks of damage but it's no longer an absolute must have. The additional mobility of bull rush from Minotaur will be good as will using stoneskin from stoneborne. The race choice should be a much more difficult and interesting one. 
  3. Anti CC is no longer as important because the crash mitigation is built over the entire course of berserk instead of all at once. 
  4. Lag spikes will no longer result in full crash damage and untimely death. 
  5. Supports now have a chance to heal berserk damage since it's a DoT. 
  6. This lowers berserk up time to give a larger window to do normal damage to a myrmidon outside of berserk while also giving a myrmidon another source of sustain through the possible HoT from doing excess damage. 

@mhalashace @thomasblair and others - what are your thoughts on this? 

 

 

Edited by blazzen

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I personally would like the keep the knifes edge gameplay of Myrm, and I do like your suggestions but i think it dulls the knife a whole lot. I liked the high risk/high reward gameplay, and I think this takes some of both the risk and reward for a more stable gameplay...which I'm not opposed to! I just like the fantasy of raging berserker that lives and dies by their skill level at playing the knifes edge if that makes sense. 

A few thoughts:

- the doing damage reduces crash damage mechanic would be interesting and unique, but i can see a myrm spinning in the middle of 4-5 people and doing loads of damage that will almost always make their crash not have nearly as much impact. Maybe a % of the damage you do reduces crash damage and that % can be increased via Taste for Blood. I don't necessarily want to not have to mitigate my crashes. I want to be rewarded for knowing when I can/cant take the crash damage. 

- i really dont like being able to heal off berserk, its already a strong mechanic in that it can mitigate alI damage you take.

- on Raging Bull, not totally sure whether it should be 500 or not. An aoe knockdown not locked behind a combo is very very strong already. Having 2 has potential to be pretty gross. 

 

All that being said; i think the "the Best offense is the best defense" is what the Myrm is all about and id love to see the idea iterated on!

 

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1 hour ago, Jjusticar said:

I personally would like the keep the knifes edge gameplay of Myrm, and I do like your suggestions but i think it dulls the knife a whole lot. I liked the high risk/high reward gameplay, and I think this takes some of both the risk and reward for a more stable gameplay...which I'm not opposed to! I just like the fantasy of raging berserker that lives and dies by their skill level at playing the knifes edge if that makes sense. 

I totally get that. That's what drew me to the class in the first place. The mechanic has its share of issues and imbalance though as I pointed out. 

1 hour ago, Jjusticar said:

- the doing damage reduces crash damage mechanic would be interesting and unique, but i can see a myrm spinning in the middle of 4-5 people and doing loads of damage that will almost always make their crash not have nearly as much impact. Maybe a % of the damage you do reduces crash damage and that % can be increased via Taste for Blood. I don't necessarily want to not have to mitigate my crashes. I want to be rewarded for knowing when I can/cant take the crash damage. 

If you're WWing in the middle of 5 people and all 5 of those people turn on you I don't think you'll be doing more damage to them than they will be able to do to you. 

1 hour ago, Jjusticar said:

- i really dont like being able to heal off berserk, its already a strong mechanic in that it can mitigate alI damage you take.

I was on the fence whether or not to suggest the healing portion, however, considering the up time of berserk was being nerfed significantly I thought it necessary. If it was found to be too strong that is the first thing to go though. At that point if damage dealt equaled or exceeded damage taken then you just wouldn't take any crash damage. 

1 hour ago, Jjusticar said:

- on Raging Bull, not totally sure whether it should be 500 or not. An aoe knockdown not locked behind a combo is very very strong already. Having 2 has potential to be pretty gross. 

To be clear, Raging Bull is the Myrmidon ultimate ability. The Champion Ultimate ability, Flying Neckbreaker, is also an AoE knockdown not locked behind a combo and costs 500 ultimate. The Myrmidon one costs 1000 which is reasonable when it can completely negate a crash. If the crash mechanic were changed then it would make sense to lower the cost of raging bull to 500 to match the Champions. 

Edited by blazzen

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I like the idea of having a bigger window where the myrm can't mitigate dmg.

But the heal VS dmg part you suggest with the crash.. I don't know.. 

It might be fine for large scale combat, but smaller scale, put a plate chest with huge mitigation, and make a LMB build on that myrm and you could easily out heal the amount of dmg you take, then top that off with your own healers healing you too.

And even in large scale multiple of that kind of myrm would be reeaally Hard to kill tbh.

Some strong weapons, High crit/crit dmg (careless whisperer) and the myrm will easily do 5k+ dmg in 10 seconds.

 

I remember last patch running around as myrm with a plate chest with 30% phys, and armor trained, I had everything above 50% and all the physical mitigation almost capped. Then full leather off pieces for +15% dmg, maxed STR, close to/if not 1k ap, capped dmg modifier, almost capped mitigations.. That is Hard to take down.. 


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With a 10 second gap between berserk I think the healing would probably be needed.

Ranged who could kite Myrms would be tough cause if you aren’t in range to do damage you won’t mitigate the crash.

That would be the basic strategy to kite them while berserk is up so they can’t do dmg to mitigate.

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3 hours ago, blazzen said:

I totally get that. That's what drew me to the class in the first place. The mechanic has its share of issues and imbalance though as I pointed out. 

Definitely agree, and I am all for changing up the mechanics behind the crash. 

 

3 hours ago, blazzen said:

If you're WWing in the middle of 5 people and all 5 of those people turn on you I don't think you'll be doing more damage to them than they will be able to do to you. 

But you're saying "if". I don't think that happens all that often, at least when I'm in group fights I don't tend to be one of the first people focused. Even so, the idea behind the mechanic of dealing enough damage that you just basically don't crash isn't all that appealing to me personally. It seems like a tough thing to balance i.e; myrms are doing too much damage and taking no damage from any crashes or myrms aren't doing enough damage and taking too much damage from crashes. But idk, maybe I'm wrong. I'm just somewhat against the idea of a way to totally void the class mechanic.

3 hours ago, blazzen said:

I was on the fence whether or not to suggest the healing portion, however, considering the up time of berserk was being nerfed significantly I thought it necessary. If it was found to be too strong that is the first thing to go though. At that point if damage dealt equaled or exceeded damage taken then you just wouldn't take any crash damage. 

Ya I definitely understand that, it's always good to throw out the ideas and get talking about it. I don't personally think healing should be a thing. Imagine you aren't really getting focused...you'd just be topped off the entire fight and the crash mechanic is just voided.

3 hours ago, blazzen said:

To be clear, Raging Bull is the Myrmidon ultimate ability. The Champion Ultimate ability, Flying Neckbreaker, is also an AoE knockdown not locked behind a combo and costs 500 ultimate. The Myrmidon one costs 1000 which is reasonable when it can completely negate a crash. If the crash mechanic were changed then it would make sense to lower the cost of raging bull to 500 to match the Champions. 

Yep I know. And I don't think the champ ultimate should have 2 casts on it either. I think pretty much any class having 2 ultimate casts is pretty busted if only for the insane amount of extra iFrames you get over a fight.

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