Tinnis

[todd twitter] small player economy idea request

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6 hours ago, Frykka said:

Did legacy items get created?  did it work on just stackable items?   did it work on grinding minerals (stackable)?

@Nyamo  are you then demanding a full wipe based on what you know could have been created?   Dupes are game breaking and this is why we report them and fix them rather than abuse them while we are helping to test...  I test for dupes as well and make thousands of items, didn't find this one.   I'll thank you as well when you find one.

No I am not demanding anything. I just necroed this because you were so diffident when i told you about that and i think this is not a healthy attitude i think. We are in test and I'm pretty sure the majority of the people here are trying their best to help. I do understand that forums are sometimes full of kids that try to alter what they write just to prove a point, so i do understand the reason of your original diffidence but still I would have acted differently if i were you.

Regarding the wipe, since this is the thing it seems you mostly care of, I am favorable to have one but has nothing to do with the dupe or whatever. Just a matter of personal preferences. But, again, I am not demanding it.

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Posted (edited)
On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 5:09 PM, Nyamo said:

No I am not demanding anything. I just necroed this because you were so diffident when i told you about that and i think this is not a healthy attitude i think. We are in test and I'm pretty sure the majority of the people here are trying their best to help. I do understand that forums are sometimes full of kids that try to alter what they write just to prove a point, so i do understand the reason of your original diffidence but still I would have acted differently if i were you.

Regarding the wipe, since this is the thing it seems you mostly care of, I am favorable to have one but has nothing to do with the dupe or whatever. Just a matter of personal preferences. But, again, I am not demanding it.

I was diffident because you were NOT reporting a possible dupe but were calling for a SB wipe of other peoples stuff, 100s of pieces of gear in my case on two vendors, 1000+ hours of my guilds harvest-craft time.   The healthy attitude is to respect the effort people put into testing and this latest test included testing the vending and coin exchange, the value of coin and goods sold through vending EKs and this kind of testing takes effort by suppliers and customers to get the ball rolling.   An SB wipe kills any chance of proving that the current harvest-craft-vend loop launched with 5.6 could motivate new players to go harvest zombies for coin and hands instead of working toward self made gear and would get an economy rolling.

You did call for a wipe with zero evidence and only the rumor of a dupe...   one that turned out to be real but was only demonstrated with basic arrows however I am sure other items could be created by the "emoji naming" bug however there is still not evidence that any game breaking high end items or in the worst possible case "coin" itself being duped.

Of course I care about premature wipes called by a player with zero skin in the game...   I absolutely call for a wipe when there is a necessity, yes and I have also reported previous dupes due to an EK rollback in the past and rolled with a wipe than as I would now if we started to see the markets or the game space flooded with duped gear.

I also very much care about duping as any game that does not address it before launch and stay on top of it through any update has its player economy utterly destroyed in hours.

FYI...   I did sell quite a bit of gear in this testing cycle and the base gear economy is viable to build on...   To get back to exactly what this thread is about.    Keeping vendors up and live is a roadblock and so is navigating the EKs for vendors with actual gear stocked.


 

Edited by Frykka

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I was diffident because you were NOT reporting a possible dupe but were calling for a SB wipe of other peoples stuff, 100s of pieces of gear in my case on two vendors, 1000+ hours of my guilds harvest-craft time.  

I really want to have a honest conversation with you but as long as you keep twisting what I write I doubt we can ever have one.

I never called for a SB wipe I said:

 

On 6/23/2018 at 7:24 AM, Nyamo said:

Strangely I am favorable for a wipe. Too many ek bugs, people duping stuff in ek and moreover we are in pre-alpha and i think it is easier for the devs to check stuff if we restart from scratch.

Being favorable for a wipe is way different for "calling" for a wipe. A call for a wipe is a request for having a wipe, while being favorable is just a feeling or an opinion in the case it should happen. In addition...

On 6/23/2018 at 7:41 AM, Nyamo said:

 i was referring to EK. Now please quote my post in which i said spirit bank or skills. 

I never called for a SB wipe i was referring to EK.

And if the only dope bug was the arrow one, well probably the  bug @Kraahk had in which he was able to duplicate structures in the EK is still unfixed. Not to mention @Altybear bugging out resources spawns. Maybe @Kraahk duped building in the same ways of the arrow. I don't know since he didn't reveal details to me. if that is the case that bug may be considered fixed. If dregs are going to use the same module of ek being able to block a resource spawn is going to be a big problem (I am referring to Altybead bug/exploit). Now in the light of these 2 bugs (in which, again, I have no idea on how to reproduce, though I had withnessed by visiting the ek to altybear resource spawn bug) I am still favorable to an ek wipe in the meaning that, according to what i written days ago, it may be easier for the devs to check if they fixed the issues. And if an EK wipe brings a SB wipe, well I guess we will have to deal with it. Nor that I care of my virtual pixels neither. They devs can do whatever they want if they think is the best way to handle things.

 

Now, if you stop twisting my words and give feedback on what I wrote rather on what you think I have written I am willing to keep this discussion with you. If you keep twisting and changing what I said I have no interest in keep this going on because it leads to nowhere. Thank you for all the imagination you have used for replying to something I never wrote, I appreciate the effort, but I can't have a discussion if you keep altering my original text.

 

With this set aside, I hope we can move forward and have a good relationship.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Nyamo said:

bug @Kraahk

OK. Let me do this in three chapters.

As for calling me, regarding exploits:

This is the second time you try to draw my attention to this thread by @ing me while connecting my name to a dupe bug in order to support your opinion. So, here I am.

First of all I need to let you know that i don't appreciate the way the aforementioned happened.

Second, there is no sense in @ing me about this sub-topic. I won't talk openly and in detail about issues that may endanger the game or the company, or about bugs that may change user behaviour or test results if commonly known, or about exploits of any kind no matter how small they are.
If I find such an issue - and in the last three years I found some of them - I try to understand and repoduce it, to find the underlying issue and then inform the team as fast and comprehensive as possible, give them anything they need and don't stop pushing the matter until they understand how important this is or I am truly convinced that (and why) it isn't.

Exploits are nothing to be discussed publicly. Why not? Just look at yourself. People freak out about them - and often tend to make a mountain out of a molehill. And even if it indeed may be a mountain, that's just the more a reason to keep it sub rosa.

I made a mistake. By even just mentioning that there was an exploit. Just one single time. Without giving details. But unfortunately and obvisously saying enough to foster free interpretion (or not enough to prevent them). In the wrong chat. With the wrong people.
This was an exception. I regret that deeply. Be sure it won't happen again.
Though it's always good to know who you can talk to and to whom you can't. For somtimes hunting needs a team that can operate silently behind the lines. No matter if you hunt mammals or bugs.  So, thanks for making things clearer.


As for the sub-topic - EK wipe:

What I sense most between the lines of your posts is basically "An EK wipe would be great. Just take a look at Kraahks EK, Ravenheart. And he mentioned a dupe bug. So add 1 and 1 together. Probably others used it and now they have more than me - an honest man who would never do such a filthy thing. Thats market distortion. So let's reset."

I tell you, the scope of my EK has nothing to do with any bug. The backer level you can see next to my name is not my real one - i just always liked the ks ruby icon most. So, resetting the EK's, and if you want to the SB's also, will have no significant influence on the scope of my EK. Besides me having to redeem and find the time to place this small part of my stuff once more, of course.  

Adding to that, there are not many people who are willing and able to test EK's as intensely as i do. It's not more than a handful. The mentioned bug is not likely to be found by anyone but the most dedicated and equipped testers. And you can expect those to report and not to abuse them. But even if that wouldnt be the case, the possible influence would be insignificant. Of course it nevertheless can't be allowed to persist, though.

So: There is no bug that i know of that would make any wipe necessary at the moment.
However, in my opinion there is likely to be one regarding EK's/Ek assets in the nearer future.
We know that the bigger parcels and strongholds are in the pipeline. Mega deeds and panels are in the making. There are massive changes regarding how walls are handled. The inventory system, especially regarding building parts, is suboptimal. This all calls for a soon-to-come EK wipe. Maybe they'll find another solution. Mabye it's just not worth it. But the next wipe will come one day. And thats ok, for this is testing and we are trying to help ... instead of only chasing only our own goals, aren't we?


So, maybe we can skip this unnecessary discussion now and go back to topic.

 

 


 

On 17.6.2018 at 12:39 PM, Tinnis said:

@jtoddcoleman just making a thread on forum and reddit to see if more suggestions 

 

 

As for the topic of driving player economy:

There are a lot of aspects to this and therefore also different opinions. I don't think there can be an overall solution for now.

However, regarding this topic i see two major player groups. The organized and/or experienced ones (mostly old backers and groups), and the more unorganized/less experienced ones (mostly new single-playing pre-purchasers).

To make it short:

Split the EK browse window into opened and closed EK's. (or at least put the opened ones on top)
Why should people browse through hundreds of EK's with all the same icons. It's boring. It's annoying. It takes time. If you want people to sell stuff on a big scale and create an economy, make it easy for them to get customers. Instead of making it a cinderellas task of "The good into the pot, the bad into the crop ... and maybe ... someday ... if you whish strong enough ... you may find a crystal shoe."

Install a fixed cottage + stall + vendor on each EK temple parcel, which the owner can use for free.
People may like to sell the stuff they dont need. The problem is, they cant. They would need to build a hamlet parcel for 9k non-basic resources first, and a cottage, and a stall, and a vendor. And then pay the vendor. And then they are not online and some day the vendor has -10k maintenance and how the hell is someone who didnt pay enough attention to pay maintenance meant to pay off 10k gold? Of course they wont. What they need is an easy way to sell stuff. Instead of one they would need to study three semesters of Crowfall for.

Both isn't perfect, but i think both could drive the economy for the moment with not too complicated temporary solutions.

Edited by Kraahk

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7 hours ago, Kraahk said:

Exploits

Ok Kraahk, first of all since english is not my nor your first language i think we need to make clarification here.
To me an exploit is taking personal advantage from a flaw in the game system and abusing of an unintended game mechanics.
I have never thought for a single moment that you did that for taking a personal advantage. You just happened to discover a bug and you eventually verified the steps to reproduce it for then reporting to the devs. There is a huge difference from just happening to discover a bug and understanding how it works, and to actively exploiting it to gain advantage, so please let's avoid the term exploit because i do not think it fits the discussion here.

 

7 hours ago, Kraahk said:

I made a mistake. By even just mentioning that there was an exploit. Just one single time. Without giving details. But unfortunately and obvisously saying enough to foster free interpretion (or not enough to prevent them). In the wrong chat. With the wrong people.
This was an exception. I regret that deeply. Be sure it won't happen again.
Though it's always good to know who you can talk to and to whom you can't. For somtimes hunting needs a team that can operate silently behind the lines. No matter if you hunt mammals or bugs.  So, thanks for making things clearer.

Aren't you over-reacting a little bit here?
I checked all the discussions we had in discord but i couldn't find, so that discussion happened in game-chat most likely and if I remember correctly that even happened in global chat. I honestly do not remember that you asked me to keep it quiet.

Now, ask yourself one thing: do you really think that if you asked me to keep it quiet I would have then mentioned you here? I mean I have strong respect for you, your project and other things i do not want to mention here in the forums. I think there was a huge misunderstanding and, on the opposite I wonder why you haven't contacted me on the first mention happened on June 23rd while you decided to wait 2 weeks and a second mention and then acting like you are offended.

A more mature approach wouldn't have been to contact me privately after the first mention? We could have avoided things to degenerate this way and I could have apologized if you asked me to keep it quiet and for some reason i forgot of your request (which, honestly i do not remember if you asked me or not).

Now you are acting like if i backstabbed you, which I have not, because you didn't asked me to keep this quiet in the first place. And if you asked me to keep it quite and I didn't, well please accept my sincere and public apologizes. If you asked this i simply forgot it and by now way I mentioned you with the idea of hurting you or putting you in a bad position. I wish that discussion happened on discord so we could had a history but unluckily it didn't happened there.

Anyway please accept again my sincere apologizes for having put you into an uneasy situation. That was not my intent in the very first place.

 

 

7 hours ago, Kraahk said:

An EK wipe would be great. Just take a look at Kraahks EK, Ravenheart. And he mentioned a dupe bug. So add 1 and 1 together. Probably others used it and now they have more than me - an honest man who would never do such a filthy thing. Thats market distortion. So let's reset.

Now I wonder if you actually spent the time reading my post of if you were so angry that you couldn't read properly. I never said this... i said:

On 7/9/2018 at 8:08 AM, Nyamo said:

Strangely I am favorable for a wipe. Too many ek bugs, people duping stuff in ek and moreover we are in pre-alpha and i think it is easier for the devs to check stuff if we restart from scratch.

I never discussed about ethics of the player discovering or abusing bugs. I never discussed of economy messed up by bugs. Honestly i don't care at all of economy because the player base is so low that it's not even a good sample for testing purpose so I don't care at all. Nor I care for duped items cause guess what? There will be wipes. I simply said a wipe would make the life easier for the devs.


Would a wipe really make the life easier for them? I don't know. That's my opinion and forums are here to share each others.
And sincere apologizes again. when bad things happens relationships gets destroyed... or they get stronger. I hope our takes the latter way and we can move forward this and establish an even deeper one than we previously had.



 

 

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Posted (edited)

vendors should be in the beach head not EK's the is the simplest most important fix the economy needs...Also none of this only the biggest guild can place a vendor either....  There is more then enough room in the beachheads for everyone who wants to place a vendor......  Limiting it to the biggest guild or some albion inspired bidding system doesn't help the economy the economy needs competition everyone needs equal footing... From the largest guild to the smallest solo crafter...

Edited by Sulfurblade

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On 6/17/2018 at 7:27 PM, McTan said:

The life-blood of a player-driven economy is competition for scarce, regionally-distributed resources combined with specialization.

Too many game designs forgo this concept for a more uniform resource distribution. In a game where players literally pick a place to settle, the player-driven economy will work if that place has precise, predictable and rigid economic consequences. 

In a simplified scenario: if Mithril Warhammers settles in a cold biome near a mountain, we should have a relative surplus of ore and stone, and a relative deficit of lumber and hide. Of course, there are more than one type of each of those things, so it could be even more excellently designed. Unfortunately, it seems like CF maps follow the classic setup where all types of ore, lumber, and stone appear randomly in every corner of the world. In this kind of set-up, when I am running randomly, I cannot predict what the next resource I will see is. I should be able to.

So, you do not have any sort of economic network, you simply have a contest for who can do it faster. This is simplified, I know there are some groups successfully locking down the highest tier of these things, but that is an elite scarcity economy and does not sustain as well as a regionally-distributed one. 

Let MWH, in the above scenario, corner the market on essentially all tiers of ore and be completely shut out of harvesting lumber and hide. This is a brilliant way to organize a player-driven economy because our economic interaction is driven by need. It also lowers the demand on individual guilds to cover all their needs in terms of trained harvesters and crafters, instead encouraging us to specialize and then trade with other specialists. Yes we want some high quality lumber and hide and equipment made from it, but we should not commit to training ourselves as lumberers, skinners, tanners, and carvers.

Then, let us market ourselves as ore and metalworking specialists, with tags on our EK.

tl;dr I'm not on twitter, but if I responded to JTC my simple suggestion would be: Do not distribute any resource uniformly.

Best suggestion in this thread, more of this please ACE.

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On 6/17/2018 at 10:27 PM, McTan said:

The life-blood of a player-driven economy is competition for scarce, regionally-distributed resources combined with specialization.

Too many game designs forgo this concept for a more uniform resource distribution. In a game where players literally pick a place to settle, the player-driven economy will work if that place has precise, predictable and rigid economic consequences. 

In a simplified scenario: if Mithril Warhammers settles in a cold biome near a mountain, we should have a relative surplus of ore and stone, and a relative deficit of lumber and hide. Of course, there are more than one type of each of those things, so it could be even more excellently designed. Unfortunately, it seems like CF maps follow the classic setup where all types of ore, lumber, and stone appear randomly in every corner of the world. In this kind of set-up, when I am running randomly, I cannot predict what the next resource I will see is. I should be able to.

So, you do not have any sort of economic network, you simply have a contest for who can do it faster. This is simplified, I know there are some groups successfully locking down the highest tier of these things, but that is an elite scarcity economy and does not sustain as well as a regionally-distributed one. 

Let MWH, in the above scenario, corner the market on essentially all tiers of ore and be completely shut out of harvesting lumber and hide. This is a brilliant way to organize a player-driven economy because our economic interaction is driven by need. It also lowers the demand on individual guilds to cover all their needs in terms of trained harvesters and crafters, instead encouraging us to specialize and then trade with other specialists. Yes we want some high quality lumber and hide and equipment made from it, but we should not commit to training ourselves as lumberers, skinners, tanners, and carvers.

Then, let us market ourselves as ore and metalworking specialists, with tags on our EK.

tl;dr I'm not on twitter, but if I responded to JTC my simple suggestion would be: Do not distribute any resource uniformly.

So true. Resource distribution needs to be non-uniform so that the principle of Comparative Advantage applies in game.

Two different guilds based in different regions of a map should have significantly different comparative advantages.

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On 6/17/2018 at 8:27 PM, McTan said:

The life-blood of a player-driven economy is competition for scarce, regionally-distributed resources combined with specialization.

Too many game designs forgo this concept for a more uniform resource distribution. In a game where players literally pick a place to settle, the player-driven economy will work if that place has precise, predictable and rigid economic consequences. 

In a simplified scenario: if Mithril Warhammers settles in a cold biome near a mountain, we should have a relative surplus of ore and stone, and a relative deficit of lumber and hide. Of course, there are more than one type of each of those things, so it could be even more excellently designed. Unfortunately, it seems like CF maps follow the classic setup where all types of ore, lumber, and stone appear randomly in every corner of the world. In this kind of set-up, when I am running randomly, I cannot predict what the next resource I will see is. I should be able to.

So, you do not have any sort of economic network, you simply have a contest for who can do it faster. This is simplified, I know there are some groups successfully locking down the highest tier of these things, but that is an elite scarcity economy and does not sustain as well as a regionally-distributed one. 

Let MWH, in the above scenario, corner the market on essentially all tiers of ore and be completely shut out of harvesting lumber and hide. This is a brilliant way to organize a player-driven economy because our economic interaction is driven by need. It also lowers the demand on individual guilds to cover all their needs in terms of trained harvesters and crafters, instead encouraging us to specialize and then trade with other specialists. Yes we want some high quality lumber and hide and equipment made from it, but we should not commit to training ourselves as lumberers, skinners, tanners, and carvers.

Then, let us market ourselves as ore and metalworking specialists, with tags on our EK.

tl;dr I'm not on twitter, but if I responded to JTC my simple suggestion would be: Do not distribute any resource uniformly.

I remember the earlier maps and the grouped ore distribution model fondly.  

Want Iron/Gold, head to the swamp area, that's where they were.  Want Copper, it was into the steep valleys.  Sure there were a few spots of them here and there elsewhere, but there was a known method for getting what you wanted, and you knew where to start looking.

It was much better than this random any type and any location spread that is going on right now.

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