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Tinnis

[todd twitter] small player economy idea request

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mine for record (my tweets auto delete after a month heh)

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allow crafters to write their own item "flair text" (possible exclude from poor/common. also auto display where crafted e.g. SRATHORS LAWN or MOURNING world et

could go a step further for cw e.g. forged in the Keep of Ganelon in Mourning cw.....depends how much such names will be reused and if each cw will have unique name too

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would also be nice if a crafter could choose to stamp the item with their guild name as well

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do vendor's display owner names? perhaps a button on vendor interact that auto complete chat /w name. any plans for people to see offline whispers when they next come online?

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also bein able to search ek lobby by names. and a "tag" system e.g. flag ek as "blacksmith" etc and let people filter via tags.

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display guild crests/names above vendor heads or on stalls. any plans for player or guild to share vendors? placeable trade and storage chests in eks? placeable permanent campfires in eks?

p.s. placeable training dummies too

 

Edited by Tinnis

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Buy orders in the short term....      maybe some counter for the EK title that shows how many vendor stalls are in that EK and the %those vendors are stocked with goods.

So you see:
Joes EK, 4 vendors, 65% stocked
Teds EK, 2 Vendors, 20% stocked
Jills EK 5 Vendors, 45% stocked

You get a better idea at least if there are goods to be browsed before you enter...  


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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Filter that brings the active EKs (with population and public access) to the top, or hides the closed ones.  We can name and do our own marketing if the text space is large enough.

------

Add a player consignment system in the faction campaigns.

Assuming that faction worlds are going to be player driven economies, a system for players to buy/sell, without the hang up of stall ownership, territory claim grief, or EK import/export issues is going to be needed.

Let any player consign a small (1-3) number of items in beachhead vendors. Charge them a flat 10-20% of the asking price as listing fee, and then let them pick up the gold when they interact later after it has sold. 

This would go along way now for allowing players to set up shop, in the campaign, and reduce the amount of EK searching for shops time.  Something like this is  probably going to be needed in the future anyway.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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A "Trade" specific chat channel for each faction, or at the world selection screen. 

Make the world selection version a protocol that can be developed against, so players can build bots.

I know it sounds silly, but I think letting people know it's ok to talk trade somewhere could encourage a bit more of it.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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The life-blood of a player-driven economy is competition for scarce, regionally-distributed resources combined with specialization.

Too many game designs forgo this concept for a more uniform resource distribution. In a game where players literally pick a place to settle, the player-driven economy will work if that place has precise, predictable and rigid economic consequences. 

In a simplified scenario: if Mithril Warhammers settles in a cold biome near a mountain, we should have a relative surplus of ore and stone, and a relative deficit of lumber and hide. Of course, there are more than one type of each of those things, so it could be even more excellently designed. Unfortunately, it seems like CF maps follow the classic setup where all types of ore, lumber, and stone appear randomly in every corner of the world. In this kind of set-up, when I am running randomly, I cannot predict what the next resource I will see is. I should be able to.

So, you do not have any sort of economic network, you simply have a contest for who can do it faster. This is simplified, I know there are some groups successfully locking down the highest tier of these things, but that is an elite scarcity economy and does not sustain as well as a regionally-distributed one. 

Let MWH, in the above scenario, corner the market on essentially all tiers of ore and be completely shut out of harvesting lumber and hide. This is a brilliant way to organize a player-driven economy because our economic interaction is driven by need. It also lowers the demand on individual guilds to cover all their needs in terms of trained harvesters and crafters, instead encouraging us to specialize and then trade with other specialists. Yes we want some high quality lumber and hide and equipment made from it, but we should not commit to training ourselves as lumberers, skinners, tanners, and carvers.

Then, let us market ourselves as ore and metalworking specialists, with tags on our EK.

tl;dr I'm not on twitter, but if I responded to JTC my simple suggestion would be: Do not distribute any resource uniformly.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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4 hours ago, Frykka said:

Buy orders in the short term....      maybe some counter for the EK title that shows how many vendor stalls are in that EK and the %those vendors are stocked with goods.

So you see:
Joes EK, 4 vendors, 65% stocked
Teds EK, 2 Vendors, 20% stocked
Jills EK 5 Vendors, 45% stocked

You get a better idea at least if there are goods to be browsed before you enter...  

I really like this. 
If in addition to that it could show which kind of vendor (runes, weapons ecc.) with a simple icon next to it would be great. The icon would respect the "crafted" stall design (since you can craft themed ones) and if in addition to that we forbid the player to put non-relevant items into a specific themed vendor (like putting a piece of armor into a rune vendor) would be great.

So when browsing any ek from the menu you will just see a list of icons and the percentage of how much they are stocked.

 


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A database for the vendor to remember common prices for commonly placed items. Populate it over time and get decent numbers for what sells and doesn't.

Minimum Prices based upon sacrifice values. You are still able to sell below this but the info is already in game.

Buy orders. And Sell orders. 

The ability to annotate the map. And to see the parcel names as well on the map. 

A Online / offline toggle button on the EK browse window. 

The ability to force restart a bugged EK. I had to wait for a few hours to get everyone out of the lawn due to a lockout bug that the server restarting on it's natural shutdown cycle then fixed. 

Nobles being able to spin up EK's they have permissions on. 

A repeat widget for crafting. I know factories. But god this is a slow / painful process. Armor layers being 150+ clicks is insane. 9 of them single pipped. 15 pips. Click pip. click run. click pip. ......GAHH

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A "barter" option for vendors, as secondary payment instead of gold !!!

That would be cool and counter the goldcoininflation a lot.


One Ring to Rule them all, One Ring to Find them, One Ring to bring them all an in the darkness and bind them.

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  •  
    j todd colemanVerified account @jtoddcoleman Jun 16
    as noted earlier in thread, not sure how to make it work
     
    ------
     
    How to get vendor stalls in campaign beach heads
    So for this one, they can simply use the system as designed in Albion Online for crafting spots in public cities, you allow plots that can be bid on for ownership by anyway on a set timeframe, perhaps every two weeks or something. The winner of the bid gets control of the vendor, and the existing owner gets their inventory for sale put into their spirit bank or something. Existing owners could also get some kind of bid multiplier so that vendors don't change hands to often, or not if that isn't an issue.

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8 hours ago, McTan said:

The life-blood of a player-driven economy is competition for scarce, regionally-distributed resources combined with specialization.

Too many game designs forgo this concept for a more uniform resource distribution. In a game where players literally pick a place to settle, the player-driven economy will work if that place has precise, predictable and rigid economic consequences. 

...

tl;dr I'm not on twitter, but if I responded to JTC my simple suggestion would be: Do not distribute any resource uniformly.

 

The fact that there is no distance-factor to EK's they are all uniformly accessible, means that proximity won't ever provide a competitive advantage to any particular EK - that is kind of a big loss for organic market forces. That leaves (but not limited to) price, inventory, and accessibility. You essentially have Amazon.com but without it's amazing search system - imagine having to find what you wanted to buy on Amazon.com but couldn't use a search and it's filters, but instead had to click on each retailer page one by one in a big list. Yeah nobody would use that.

If people could put vendors in campaign worlds, then I could see folks trading goods there at higher price points for the convenience factor probably higher demand, then EK's could sell the same things put at lower prices and have a channel to compete with other players who managed to secure campaign location vendor spots. I could also imagine arbitrage happening to, where people export goods that got easier on one world or EK for cheaper prices, and imported them to another world where they are rare in an attempt to make profit.

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32 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:
  •  
    j todd colemanVerified account @jtoddcoleman Jun 16
     
    as noted earlier in thread, not sure how to make it work
     
    ------
     
    How to get vendor stalls in campaign beach heads
    So for this one, they can simply use the system as designed in Albion Online for crafting spots in public cities, you allow plots that can be bid on for ownership by anyway on a set timeframe, perhaps every two weeks or something. The winner of the bid gets control of the vendor, and the existing owner gets their inventory for sale put into their spirit bank or something. Existing owners could also get some kind of bid multiplier so that vendors don't change hands to often, or not if that isn't an issue.

@jtoddcoleman

For faction campaigns, forget player ownership of the actual shop, run it as a consignment for players in those worlds.

  • Players list goods with a faction merchant at a set cost to list based on asking price.
  • Make this a set time consignment, if they don't sell in a week, the item gets pulled, NO REFUNDS!
  • Keep the numbers one account can list down so nobody can spam fill them.
  • Order the showing by pages of items, by price, grouped by the category/type of item.  (All two handed swords on one page) (This is a nice to have).

I honestly don't see any other way to pull together a player ran, inside the campaign, economy, than to take away the need to fight for "space" against other members of your faction. It's too easy for trolls and large groups to lock out other players and attempt monopoly through placement bidding, without needing to actually compete economically.

 

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9 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

@jtoddcoleman

I honestly don't see any other way to pull together a player ran, inside the campaign, economy, than to take away the need to fight for "space" against other members of your faction. It's too easy for trolls and large groups to lock out other players and attempt monopoly through placement bidding, without needing to actually compete economically.

 

I mean, I agree to some extent, but they seem pretty adamant about not adding an auction house which by what I can see is exactly what you propose here.

Personally, I think a local auction house specific to the campaign it resides in is a good thing. If there is a sufficiently high tax for listing there, a limit to how many things can be listed and (perhaps) limit it to just resources, I could see EK's being able to compete against the convenience of such an AH through lower prices.

Edit:

A key point here is that the EK is local, and limited to just that campaign, and faction as well.

Edited by DocHollidaze
additional clarification

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1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

I mean, I agree to some extent, but they seem pretty adamant about not adding an auction house which by what I can see is exactly what you propose here.

Personally, I think a local auction house specific to the campaign it resides in is a good thing. If there is a sufficiently high tax for listing there, a limit to how many things can be listed and (perhaps) limit it to just resources, I could see EK's being able to compete against the convenience of such an AH through lower prices.

Edit:

A key point here is that the EK is local, and limited to just that campaign, and faction as well.

Auction house is much different than consignment, in many ways, at least from my perspective.

  • Auction house in order to work, everyone uses the same location. Consignment you pick the individual store to list in.
  • In the auctions house mentality, ALL auction houses are linked logically and programatically, and least the ones I have seen in other MMO's.  With consignment, that is not necessarily the case. To me it would make sense that you would still have to go to the "right" shop.
  • With consignment stores, ACE could do a couple more things.
  1. Let players build and run them in the future in non faction worlds.  Pay for the thrall and take a fee for your store front. It doesn't even have to be that complicated for players as willing to list, because you get your stock fee (or a portion of it that isn't taxes) regardless.
  2. Make the initial list fee based on location, location, location.  Those four stalls right front and center after the temple in the beach head, maybe the list price is 40%, while further away at the back of town past the boar spawn, 10%. 
  3. Change the rate for stalls in forts and keeps, so that it's cheaper to list in a fort, BUT, if you lose the fort the invaders get your stock. (Now there is a loot reason to take and hold a fort).

Consignment is MUCH different than a universal auction house, and it could be limited to the faction worlds anyway.  

There is a reason Todd said "not sure how to make it work", possibly because they seem very hung up on everything being player owned, even though I don't think any players "own" the houses or workbenches in the beachheads, because personal ownership of locations in faction worlds comes with all sorts of complications.

Consignment would mean the players all own the materials being sold, just not the shop front selling them.

 

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11 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Auction house is much different than consignment, in many ways, at least from my perspective.

  • Auction house in order to work, everyone uses the same location. Consignment you pick the individual store to list in.
  • In the auctions house mentality, ALL auction houses are linked logically and programatically, and least the ones I have seen in other MMO's.  With consignment, that is not necessarily the case. To me it would make sense that you would still have to go to the "right" shop.
  • With consignment stores, ACE could do a couple more things.
  1. Let players build and run them in the future in non faction worlds.  Pay for the thrall and take a fee for your store front. It doesn't even have to be that complicated for players as willing to list, because you get your stock fee (or a portion of it that isn't taxes) regardless.
  2. Make the initial list fee based on location, location, location.  Those four stalls right front and center after the temple in the beach head, maybe the list price is 40%, while further away at the back of town past the boar spawn, 10%. 
  3. Change the rate for stalls in forts and keeps, so that it's cheaper to list in a fort, BUT, if you lose the fort the invaders get your stock. (Now there is a loot reason to take and hold a fort).

Consignment is MUCH different than a universal auction house, and it could be limited to the faction worlds anyway.  

There is a reason Todd said "not sure how to make it work", possibly because they seem very hung up on everything being player owned, even though I don't think any players "own" the houses or workbenches in the beachheads, because personal ownership of locations in faction worlds comes with all sorts of complications.

Consignment would mean the players all own the materials being sold, just not the shop front selling them.

 

 

I don't think Auction Houses need to be assumed to be universal, Albion Online used a local auction house system (specific to each city and town) that provided for the ability to make trade runs and make profit via arbitrage. This is essentially the same thing in EVE Online, of which Albion Online was inspired by as is apparently Crowfall.

 

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1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

 

I don't think Auction Houses need to be assumed to be universal, Albion Online used a local auction house system (specific to each city and town) that provided for the ability to make trade runs and make profit via arbitrage. This is essentially the same thing in EVE Online, of which Albion Online was inspired by as is apparently Crowfall.

 

Fair enough.  I have limited experience with MMO auction houses. Mostly DDO who "tried" the "by city" auction house model and caved to the screams of convenience focused players to make it universal, back in the day.

I think that auction houses, while good for some things, can have catches.  If for example you only charge the fee when the sale is made, as opposed to when the item is listed, it can start to behave more like a day trading model, rather than a storefront.

It's much easier to manipulate a market, if you don't have to pay to do it up front.  Part of the difference between an exchange and a store, is that a store owner has up front expenses and costs (Building/lights/marketing/stock etc), and someone who plays the auction/exchanges may only really pay on the point of sale, taking all expenses as part of the profit equation. 

Having to pay to change listing prices by collecting listing fees up front, as well as stall specific vendor costs and stock, would keep the markets a bit more stable, and more expensive to manipulate.

******

On the issue of the original thread.  I think one of the biggest categories of things missing, which is what many of the suggestions in this thread point to, is marketing communication tools. 

Right now it's really hard to find what you're looking for. So much so that it's easier to just go hunt it down yourself, or give up in frustration. This tells me there is a lack of marketing tools available to those with things to sell. Giving players tools to market their own wares, not necessarily complicated ones, would probably go along way. 

For example, I don't think you need to automate the content of EK shop displays so they crawl all the stalls for inventory, just give people a larger display field on what they can say about their EK, so they can essentially advertise their wares. If a player gets a rep as making spammy and misleading sign boards, people will learn to avoid them.

We have a "favorites" tab, maybe add a "avoid" tab as well.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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14 hours ago, McTan said:

The life-blood of a player-driven economy is competition for scarce, regionally-distributed resources combined with specialization.

Too many game designs forgo this concept for a more uniform resource distribution. In a game where players literally pick a place to settle, the player-driven economy will work if that place has precise, predictable and rigid economic consequences. 

In a simplified scenario: if Mithril Warhammers settles in a cold biome near a mountain, we should have a relative surplus of ore and stone, and a relative deficit of lumber and hide. Of course, there are more than one type of each of those things, so it could be even more excellently designed. Unfortunately, it seems like CF maps follow the classic setup where all types of ore, lumber, and stone appear randomly in every corner of the world. In this kind of set-up, when I am running randomly, I cannot predict what the next resource I will see is. I should be able to.

So, you do not have any sort of economic network, you simply have a contest for who can do it faster. This is simplified, I know there are some groups successfully locking down the highest tier of these things, but that is an elite scarcity economy and does not sustain as well as a regionally-distributed one. 

Let MWH, in the above scenario, corner the market on essentially all tiers of ore and be completely shut out of harvesting lumber and hide. This is a brilliant way to organize a player-driven economy because our economic interaction is driven by need. It also lowers the demand on individual guilds to cover all their needs in terms of trained harvesters and crafters, instead encouraging us to specialize and then trade with other specialists. Yes we want some high quality lumber and hide and equipment made from it, but we should not commit to training ourselves as lumberers, skinners, tanners, and carvers.

Then, let us market ourselves as ore and metalworking specialists, with tags on our EK.

tl;dr I'm not on twitter, but if I responded to JTC my simple suggestion would be: Do not distribute any resource uniformly.

Just quoting more visibility. Really hope it ends up this way. This not only drives the game economy but also the game politics/PvP.


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15 hours ago, McTan said:

The life-blood of a player-driven economy is competition for scarce, regionally-distributed resources combined with specialization.

Too many game designs forgo this concept for a more uniform resource distribution. In a game where players literally pick a place to settle, the player-driven economy will work if that place has precise, predictable and rigid economic consequences. 

In a simplified scenario: if Mithril Warhammers settles in a cold biome near a mountain, we should have a relative surplus of ore and stone, and a relative deficit of lumber and hide. Of course, there are more than one type of each of those things, so it could be even more excellently designed. Unfortunately, it seems like CF maps follow the classic setup where all types of ore, lumber, and stone appear randomly in every corner of the world. In this kind of set-up, when I am running randomly, I cannot predict what the next resource I will see is. I should be able to.

So, you do not have any sort of economic network, you simply have a contest for who can do it faster. This is simplified, I know there are some groups successfully locking down the highest tier of these things, but that is an elite scarcity economy and does not sustain as well as a regionally-distributed one. 

Let MWH, in the above scenario, corner the market on essentially all tiers of ore and be completely shut out of harvesting lumber and hide. This is a brilliant way to organize a player-driven economy because our economic interaction is driven by need. It also lowers the demand on individual guilds to cover all their needs in terms of trained harvesters and crafters, instead encouraging us to specialize and then trade with other specialists. Yes we want some high quality lumber and hide and equipment made from it, but we should not commit to training ourselves as lumberers, skinners, tanners, and carvers.

Then, let us market ourselves as ore and metalworking specialists, with tags on our EK.

tl;dr I'm not on twitter, but if I responded to JTC my simple suggestion would be: Do not distribute any resource uniformly.

 

45 minutes ago, Yoink said:

Just quoting more visibility. Really hope it ends up this way. This not only drives the game economy but also the game politics/PvP.

This, more of this.  Thanks for highlighting it yoink.  It forces expansion by way of need. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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