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tsp_maj

Whats the point of crafting taking time?

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19 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

You are wrong. have you been playing the current version of Crowfall? Honest question.

If there was no timer for hand crafted items, people would use factories because the timers are not a consideration when choosing whether or not to craft something. They aren't long enough to do that. That was the point of literally half of my post. Factories aren't about not waiting. They're about waiting LONGER to get items which are more UNIFORM and waste less RESOURCES on bad rolls. Where as using no facotry involves making a bunch of garbage and wasting resources. This makes factories attractive because resources are the largest source of time expenditure in the whole process. In comparison the 15 minutes it takes (in literally staring at a progress bar, not counting the parts where you actually play the game by clicking things) is in no way a barrier when someone is using the result of two hours to two week's worth of man hours of farming.

The primary difference is that the wait time for factories doesn't force you to sit around and do nothing for however long the items build.

The tradeoff isn't "be annoyed with timers or build factories"

It's "be annoyed with having to random roll every component of every item and get items quickly" compared to "use production line items that require specific resources and rarities, wait longer to get the items."

Also, resources were literally never scarce in EVE. Ever. Literally ever. EVER. Everyone who resources literally anything in EVE has enough resources to sell on the open market. You'll notice that isn't the case in crowfall. look around at vendors and see if you see stacks and stacks of material. You don't. Know why? Because materials are the gate, not crafting time. People are selling items because items are what have value. Specifically, in crowfall, because items are complex one of a kind rolls made of other complex one of a kind rolls the value of an item is not in the fact that it already exists (the EVE model) but that it is actually better than what you have or can make.

ANYONE can buy, say, a Dominix in EVE. ANYONE can make a dominix with hisec production lines and very low crafting skills. EVERY Dominix will have exactly the same stats. The primary difference between the pro crafter in EVE and the novice is that the pro crafter makes more Dominixes, makes them faster, and makes them for cheaper.

This is not even close to how Crowfall's system works in the absence of factories. In order to make a specific item you need not only YOUR crafting skills to be top tier, and to get lucky on your crafting rolls. You need at least one other player to do the same. And you need to do this consistantly for multiple components. This is in fact so numerically difficult to do that "perfect" items are virtually impossible to make, and even making particularly good items is more than anything a function of luck and outputting a truckload of wasted mats on 'bad' items that are essentially efficiency byproducts.

And that impossibility has nothing to do with timers. That impossibility has to do with the fact that most crafters can only reliably source a limited number of resources, and unlike the EVE model, the product of a large number of those resource rolls are going to go straight in to the bargain bin vendor, or given to lowbies, or given funny names to be left on corpses, or otherwise written off as waste. This is what we call "average" items and this system is intentional.

Again IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CRAFTING TIMERS. This entire system, with no changes other than removing the crafting timers, would be the same. I know this because THAT IS HOW IT WORKED when crafting stations were first implemented. Every item took 1s to build. Guess what. I built as much stuff then as I do now. I was just less annoyed by it. My ability to build stuff is in no way impacted by 20 second to 3 minute timers. I'm just more annoyed when I build stuff. The thing I'm actually limited by is ability to get enough of the specific resources I need to roll specific stats at specific rarities. That ALSO takes time, but the difference is that all of that time is spent playing the game, interacting with other players in hostile or friendly interactions.

Also the entire concept of material quality doesn't exist in EVE. All EVE items are identical and crafting skills and facility buffs make the crafting shorter or more efficient. items do not have meaningful craftable stats in EVE, blueprints do and there are exactly two of them, appropriately name Material Efficiency and Time Efficiency. Facilities also have modifier values for these two stats and a limited number of production lines. Characters have limits on how many lines they can run at one time. The exception is experimentation, which is a binary pass/fail for creating T2 blueprints. You either get the blueprint, or you don't.

That's why it works in EVE. Because the crafting system is built around scarcity of production lines, and efficiency of mass production, not scarcity of resources or scarcity of quality. In fact the best items in EVE aren't even crafted. They're loot from officer mobs. The difficulty of acquiring them matches the crowfall model for every single item. You go out and play the game, potentially getting killed and your prize stolen. This combined with a random number (in EVE's case, the officer loot table, in Crowfall's case, the experimentation dice rolls) ensures the best items are functionally impossible to mass produce, and for this reason are never used in broad deployment. For average items, the stuff people actually use to fight other people, resources are quick and easy in EVE by design. They're so quick and easy that EVE literally destroys half of them when your harvester gets ganked, and the ship, and half of the equipment on the ship. Intercepting bulk shipments and destroying production facilities is the primary risk of EVE crafting. Ganking miners is secondary and no amount of actually intercepting players doing the resources prevents those players from getting those resources. The name of economic PvP is control the means of production. In EVE that's crafting facilities. In Crowfall that's harvesting nodes.

That isn't how Crowfall's crafting works and I don't want to see corowfall's crafting work that way because what we have is an infinitely more fun system that creates unique items and is in general more fun to use. It's not that much fun to use when you literally can't use it because you're waiting for a timer to tick down for 60 seconds and literally can't use it.

The fact that you see all of these crafters here, who have an intimate understanding of the system, who have skilled and reskilled those professions, and who have built meticulous value and randomization data spreadsheets around that system, and that you see them telling you that these timers are pointless is probably an indication that THESE TIMERS ARE ACTUALLY POINTLESS.

They serve no function at their current rates, the crafting table systems aren't set up to use them if they were increased to time frames you could actually walk away from the table and do something else, and there is not enough bank space to use components in that manner. Even if you build for what the intended system is, say a row of six blacksmithing stations, you'd actually waste more time running back and forth between smithing stations than you currently waste waiting for bars and stuff to finish building.

By your logic, if we want to balance a particularly overpowered class, we shouldn't adjust the class, we should just add a few minutes to its load screens so only the "dedicated players" that have the patience to sit through 30 minutes of loading every time they gate can play it. That wouldn't be fun for harvesting, it wouldn't be fun for combat, and it isn't fun for crafting.

You telling me I'm wrong doesn't make you right.  

The crafting times are direct correlation to factories.  The only reason factory times are long, is you are making 50 items instead of 1.  And "all" you crafters wanting to walk away and do other stuff takes away, again in my opinion, as we are both stating our own opinions here, from the game play.  As someone else stated, and sorry I forgot your name, why can't we all just click and be done.  Need ore, go 1 click a node and bam you get ore.  Need wood, go 1 click a tree and bam wood.  In a war it's going to be about who can get back on the field the fastest.  You aren't going to care so much about numbers if you just need people fighting, especially in a evenly balanced fight.  If you die, you are going to want to get geared back up as fast as possible and get back out there.  Even if that means you don't have your legendary mama jamma super uber gear anymore.  So if hand crafted items had no timer, that would happen.  Crafters in a war would just hold stacks of mats and be ready to replace what needed to be replaced in a moments notice. 

I also said, yes it sucks.  

And since you like to go back to eve all the time, in the begining mats were very expensive because they were scarce.  Sure you could buy a domi if you farmed the isk fast enough.  However mats are not the problem, it's space to build.  Try not being in one of the major corps and tell me how fast you can build a nyx? In that aspec is where you are limited.  Eventually mats in this game wont be an issue either.  Even now I am deleting common and poor mats.  I don't have the room to store them, nor the exports to take them.  So mats are not going to be a problem either.  People are selling them on vendors.  And yes I am playing now and been in every cycle of the game since 2015.  

Again it's your opinion, and others jump on your band wagon.  But that doesn't mean you have the right answer.  I do not agree that hand crafted items should have no timer.  Is it perfect, probably not, but it is what it is.  I do not think it's the best crafting I've seen in an mmo, however I do believe there should be a time on hand crafted item, and in this case this is what it is.  Weather you are playing a mini game or watching a sun dial tick down.  Both have there pros/cons and someone wouldn't like either way. 

And no balancing characters isn't adding a load screen.  You obviously like to take extremes and ridiculousness.  After you spend your points and hope you get your ultimate success' there is a small wait time.  It's not the end of the world.  Just cause you aren't doing something.  And overpowered skills usually have long wait times that we are waiting for in combat.  Just cause you are moving around doesn't mean you aren't waiting.  

I see we are not going to reach a conclusion and I'm ok with that.  Your way of thinking isn't what I hope to see, as I do not want crafted items to be instaneously pumped out by handcrafting.

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Haven't cared too much about crafting as staring at bars is no fun for me, but is there any current or planned options to let players choose how their time is spent?

Craft Speed Option - Pump out lower quality gear fast. Increase the timer and get a chance at powerful items.

Stare at the UI and decrease the craft speed vs leave an item at the station and walk away, but it takes a good deal longer to finish. How invested are you in that item's outcome?

Not a fan of RNG based systems, but seems like something could be done so that RNG swings in favor of crafters the more time they spend actually crafting aka staring at the UI and bars fill up.

While I like the factory/blue print concept (if I understand it correctly), but at the same time, if one is able to mass produce an item great or poor, there should be some risk involved. The more produced at once the longer it takes for each, possible RNG that some turn out less than the original (there QC Thralls checking the line?), cap on stat/power vs a single one off item.

Just some ideas that might be a middle ground so those that want 1 click items could have their way and those that want to watch bars fill up for hours could as well. For me, there should be risk/reward cost/benefit to everything. Seems like RNG is the main cost/risk with crafting, which to me is unfortunate as it removes the power of choice from the player.

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10 hours ago, killerkat said:

You telling me I'm wrong doesn't make you right.  

The crafting times are direct correlation to factories.  The only reason factory times are long, is you are making 50 items instead of 1.  And "all" you crafters wanting to walk away and do other stuff takes away, again in my opinion, as we are both stating our own opinions here, from the game play.  As someone else stated, and sorry I forgot your name, why can't we all just click and be done.  Need ore, go 1 click a node and bam you get ore.  Need wood, go 1 click a tree and bam wood.  In a war it's going to be about who can get back on the field the fastest.  You aren't going to care so much about numbers if you just need people fighting, especially in a evenly balanced fight.  If you die, you are going to want to get geared back up as fast as possible and get back out there.  Even if that means you don't have your legendary mama jamma super uber gear anymore.  So if hand crafted items had no timer, that would happen.  Crafters in a war would just hold stacks of mats and be ready to replace what needed to be replaced in a moments notice. 

I also said, yes it sucks.  

And since you like to go back to eve all the time, in the begining mats were very expensive because they were scarce.  Sure you could buy a domi if you farmed the isk fast enough.  However mats are not the problem, it's space to build.  Try not being in one of the major corps and tell me how fast you can build a nyx? In that aspec is where you are limited.  Eventually mats in this game wont be an issue either.  Even now I am deleting common and poor mats.  I don't have the room to store them, nor the exports to take them.  So mats are not going to be a problem either.  People are selling them on vendors.  And yes I am playing now and been in every cycle of the game since 2015.  

Again it's your opinion, and others jump on your band wagon.  But that doesn't mean you have the right answer.  I do not agree that hand crafted items should have no timer.  Is it perfect, probably not, but it is what it is.  I do not think it's the best crafting I've seen in an mmo, however I do believe there should be a time on hand crafted item, and in this case this is what it is.  Weather you are playing a mini game or watching a sun dial tick down.  Both have there pros/cons and someone wouldn't like either way. 

And no balancing characters isn't adding a load screen.  You obviously like to take extremes and ridiculousness.  After you spend your points and hope you get your ultimate success' there is a small wait time.  It's not the end of the world.  Just cause you aren't doing something.  And overpowered skills usually have long wait times that we are waiting for in combat.  Just cause you are moving around doesn't mean you aren't waiting.  

I see we are not going to reach a conclusion and I'm ok with that.  Your way of thinking isn't what I hope to see, as I do not want crafted items to be instaneously pumped out by handcrafting.

Fair enough. You have a right to your opinion that staring at a progress bar is fun.

I have issue with the assertion that the hand crafting timers function as a balance mechanism.

Explain to me how 15 extra minutes of thumb twiddling while waiting for progress bars prevents anyone from crafting anything. You keep saying people will "pump out items instantly"

Find me this mythical endless source of materials that allows people to do that. It simply doesn't exist. People build items based upon the materials and benches avaliable. Cutting out the crafting bars would literally not change that. We know this because we have seen this system in action. We have literally tried it. It had zero effect on the item economy. It was just less annoying to craft.

Now, if you think staring at 30 second timers is fun and immersive, that's your opinion, but we know for a fact that they do literally nothing to affect the item economy. That's not an opinion.

Hand crafting timers do not prevent people from building items. In order for them to function as a balancing mechanism, they would have to prevent items from being made by virtue of wait times. They do not do this.

I'd also like to know in what universe you live that people wait for their gear to break before making more. That isn't how gear degradation player patterns work at all. Players do not sit on piles of material and wait for their stuff to break before making a new set. They keep a backup set in the bank. Crafting timers do not prevent people from returning to the field in any way. You visit the bank, pull your backup set, and continue to fight. When you run out of backup sets, you stop fighting so that you have equipment with which to harvest and generally defend yourself while resourcing more backup sets or move to forts or whatever.

This seems to be your only reasoning behind these handcrafting timers being a positive aspect of the game. The thing is, nobody actually plays this way, other than perhaps you.

Edited by PopeUrban

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4 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Fair enough. You have a right to your opinion that staring at a progress bar is fun.

I have issue with the assertion that the hand crafting timers function as a balance mechanism.

Explain to me how 15 extra minutes of thumb twiddling while waiting for progress bars prevents anyone from crafting anything. You keep saying people will "pump out items instantly"

Find me this mythical endless source of materials that allows people to do that. It simply doesn't exist. People build items based upon the materials and benches avaliable. Cutting out the crafting bars would literally not change that. We know this because we have seen this system in action. We have literally tried it. It had zero effect on the item economy. It was just less annoying to craft.

Now, if you think staring at 30 second timers is fun and immersive, that's your opinion, but we know for a fact that they do literally nothing to affect the item economy. That's not an opinion.

Hand crafting timers do not prevent people from building items. In order for them to function as a balancing mechanism, they would have to prevent items from being made by virtue of wait times. They do not do this.

I'd also like to know in what universe you live that people wait for their gear to break before making more. That isn't how gear degradation player patterns work at all. Players do not sit on piles of material and wait for their stuff to break before making a new set. They keep a backup set in the bank. Crafting timers do not prevent people from returning to the field in any way. You visit the bank, pull your backup set, and continue to fight. When you run out of backup sets, you stop fighting so that you have equipment with which to harvest and generally defend yourself while resourcing more backup sets or move to forts or whatever.

This seems to be your only reasoning behind these handcrafting timers being a positive aspect of the game. The thing is, nobody actually plays this way, other than perhaps you.

The time is there to add a sense of value to the the item and crafter's time but its superficial and a novelty that quickly expires.

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I can only speak for myself on this - but I know that the timers have chased me away from crafting.   I can stare at my screen doing nothing in better (and more fun) ways than watching bars go up.

So, perhaps it does create scarcity - but only in the sense that people who have the patience for a crappy mechanic are scarce.

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6 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Fair enough. You have a right to your opinion that staring at a progress bar is fun.

I have issue with the assertion that the hand crafting timers function as a balance mechanism.

Explain to me how 15 extra minutes of thumb twiddling while waiting for progress bars prevents anyone from crafting anything. You keep saying people will "pump out items instantly"

Find me this mythical endless source of materials that allows people to do that. It simply doesn't exist. People build items based upon the materials and benches avaliable. Cutting out the crafting bars would literally not change that. We know this because we have seen this system in action. We have literally tried it. It had zero effect on the item economy. It was just less annoying to craft.

Now, if you think staring at 30 second timers is fun and immersive, that's your opinion, but we know for a fact that they do literally nothing to affect the item economy. That's not an opinion.

Hand crafting timers do not prevent people from building items. In order for them to function as a balancing mechanism, they would have to prevent items from being made by virtue of wait times. They do not do this.

I'd also like to know in what universe you live that people wait for their gear to break before making more. That isn't how gear degradation player patterns work at all. Players do not sit on piles of material and wait for their stuff to break before making a new set. They keep a backup set in the bank. Crafting timers do not prevent people from returning to the field in any way. You visit the bank, pull your backup set, and continue to fight. When you run out of backup sets, you stop fighting so that you have equipment with which to harvest and generally defend yourself while resourcing more backup sets or move to forts or whatever.

This seems to be your only reasoning behind these handcrafting timers being a positive aspect of the game. The thing is, nobody actually plays this way, other than perhaps you.

It's apparent you do not read my entire posts.  Because no where does it say, "progress bar is fun".  In fact I have said the exact opposite as it sucks!  No where am I trying to argue that it's fun.  Not once did I ever say it was fun or even the best option.  So before you go off and put words in my mouth, understand what I am typing.  If you are confused feel free to ask questions.

Could there be a better way absolutely.  The one thing I continue to say is hand crafting should not be instantaneous! So timer, mini game, anything works.  No game is 100% fun for everyone 100% of the time.  There will be things you don't like that I do and vice versa.  

I have already told you that I am dumping/deleting mats now, so in an essence I already have an endless supply. Are they the perfect mats everyone wants, no, but there will be a time that that will actually happen. And in a time of war due to limited space if you have 20 pvprs and only 5 crafters, you will not be able to have ready standby gear all the time.  I am only guessing on how this mechanic will work because I do not know 100% how a war for source material will work.  So until game launches, I'll reserve my space to answer this more fully.

I am only guessing that by asking me what universe I live in, you live in one different.  You are in a universe where you want a 100% solo game that everything comes to you instantaneously.  I usually have my gear crafted or I buy it, once mine breaks.  Since I am limited on storage I do not carry, for obvious reasons, nor store an extra 6 items that take up more than 1 spot.  I have multiple chests full of resources that I do not have the luxury of holding extra suits of armor and weapons.  If you do, then you are not a gatherer, especially a grave digger.  

Well then you are ready to lose a war on attrition.  Because if you do not plan on having standby crafters in a war time, ready to make you armor to get back into the fight, your side will just lose from attrition.  The team who can keep the players on the field the longest will win (of course I am playing on both sides equal combat skills) if one side is lopsided it's moot.  But again I'll reserve my right to edit my conclusion here when I see the actual game and how it plays out.  

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1 hour ago, killerkat said:

 

I have already told you that I am dumping/deleting mats now, so in an essence I already have an endless supply.

I have to ask, are you dumping mats because you have mat's you can craft your profession in, and no good way or reason to buy/sell them, or because you have more mats than the game mechanics allow you to utilize in crafting because of time limitations, either mechanical (so many steps to produce), or imposed (timer on finishing items)?

Or some other reason I can't think up right now.

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

I have to ask, are you dumping mats because you have mat's you can craft your profession in, and no good way or reason to buy/sell them, or because you have more mats than the game mechanics allow you to utilize in crafting because of time limitations, either mechanical (so many steps to produce), or imposed (timer on finishing items)?

Or some other reason I can't think up right now.

I have no storage room to hold them.  I do not have a vendor as I feel the vending system needs a lil work.  And our crafters don't have room either.  So in order to make room for the higher quality mats, I have to delete the commons and poors.  Which yes can be used to still make things, but due to limited space, I have to choose which one to store and which ones to delete.

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3 minutes ago, killerkat said:

I have no storage room to hold them.  I do not have a vendor as I feel the vending system needs a lil work.  And our crafters don't have room either.  So in order to make room for the higher quality mats, I have to delete the commons and poors.  Which yes can be used to still make things, but due to limited space, I have to choose which one to store and which ones to delete.

Still sounds like a time problem, because if time was not an issue, you would simply grind all the mats into gear rather than toss is out.  Make a couple dozen tries at boostrapping some purple bars with purple/grey or something.

Storage is a different problem. 

You know about the charn trick?  Killing a volunteer in your EK and using the corpse as a storage shed?

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Yes, however I am trying to stick to mechanics I plan on using in game.  Yes I could simply skill into a crafter and craft all the ore into something.  Or skill into a merchant and sell it.  However that is not my intent in game.  

There will also be more people online to handle my excess resources.  But as of right now it's not a time issue, other than I have alot more than others so I do have an excess amount of ore.  I could throw it up in local if anyone wants, but again trying to be as how I will be in game.  

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6 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Something that I don't think has been mentioned yet is crafting disciplines. We have a harvesting disc that greatly reduces the decay on tools. Might we also see a disc that greatly reduces the time it takes to craft?

While I like this, I suspect the whole issue of disks on crafters is less choice related than on harvesters.  Harvesters are in the field, so have a "what one do I equip" choice to make. 

Crafter vessels can by and large show up after the fighting and not really need to make that choice.

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6 hours ago, killerkat said:

I have already told you that I am dumping/deleting mats now, so in an essence I already have an endless supply. Are they the perfect mats everyone wants, no, but there will be a time that that will actually happen. And in a time of war due to limited space if you have 20 pvprs and only 5 crafters, you will not be able to have ready standby gear all the time.  I am only guessing on how this mechanic will work because I do not know 100% how a war for source material will work.  So until game launches, I'll reserve my space to answer this more fully.

I know exactly how this works.

I am not self sufficient. In fact, I don't make any of my own gear. I'm an alchemist and necromancer. Last time I made my own gear was probably 5.4. Every time is "a time of war" and every single person who needs gear has room to store it. ESPECIALLY if they aren't gathering because "there are 5 crafters and 20 pvpers" The fact that I manage a group of people gives me insight in to this issue you may not have access too. In my duties as guild leader I do not now nor have I ever had a problem with handing people armor and them saying "actually I don't have room for armor and weapons"

Because there is nothing more important to store. Literally nothing.

You expect the game to function according to rules that do not exist. You expect resources to become abundant for... what reason exactly? This is the lynchpin of your argument. You assume that in a game where resource scarcity is the central lever upon which the rarity and avaliability of items is placed that at some point they're just go "hey, you know what, never mind, free mats for everyone!"

If you were that bothered about storage in 5.6 you you'd be using all of those poors and commons you're throwing away to build more storage. Or more vendor stalls. To sell those mats.

This isn't EVE. Mining isn't something I can do AFK while self running five clients in hisec. The fact that you waste materials you could be using because you only have yourself to worry about is not a stable economic indicator. I don't know where you get an idea that I want things instantly or that I want to solo anything. There's a big old guild banner under every post I make ffs. My complaints come from a person using these systems exactly how the game is designed for me to use them. I am dependant on others and they are dependant on me.

What I want is for hand crafting to stop taking unecessary amounts of time when it ALREADY takes ENOUGH time in terms of interface interactions and resource acquisition. You may understand this if you've ever had to make a stack of potions. An item with no experimentation points that is 90% waiting for crafting timers.

The fact that you play ineffeciently, mostly solo, and have no experience with what a wartime supply chain in video games actually looks like but still have the audacity to claim to know how a "war economy" should work boggles my mind.

You actually have no idea what you're talking about, but feel compelled to keep talking about it.

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2 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

While I like this, I suspect the whole issue of disks on crafters is less choice related than on harvesters.  Harvesters are in the field, so have a "what one do I equip" choice to make. 

Crafter vessels can by and large show up after the fighting and not really need to make that choice.

To be fair harvesters won't have this luxury once we can't make them for slag and 2 dust in the field.

Once we have "real" disciplines most people won't have the luxury of just swapping out diss whenever they feel like it.

I'm just hoping crafting discs add like 2% to assembly chance baseline to cut the 3% base fail to 1%, and come in flavors for experimentation, assembly, and "exotic" recipe granting ones.

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3 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

To be fair harvesters won't have this luxury once we can't make them for slag and 2 dust in the field.

Once we have "real" disciplines most people won't have the luxury of just swapping out diss whenever they feel like it.

I'm just hoping crafting discs add like 2% to assembly chance baseline to cut the 3% base fail to 1%, and come in flavors for experimentation, assembly, and "exotic" recipe granting ones.

Of all the easy to find discs, harvesting ones really need to be the easiest, and not need special thrall's or materials. ACE is going to want to give players something to slot in those disciplines early, and harvesting ones seem like the best choice.

They are the ones you need at the start of worlds the most, the ones new players need to start, and were the first non-combat made for those very reasons.

I think it's going to be the powerful combat discs that will be hard to make and find, not the harvesting ones.

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7 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

I know exactly how this works.

I am not self sufficient. In fact, I don't make any of my own gear. I'm an alchemist and necromancer. Last time I made my own gear was probably 5.4. Every time is "a time of war" and every single person who needs gear has room to store it. ESPECIALLY if they aren't gathering because "there are 5 crafters and 20 pvpers" The fact that I manage a group of people gives me insight in to this issue you may not have access too. In my duties as guild leader I do not now nor have I ever had a problem with handing people armor and them saying "actually I don't have room for armor and weapons"

Because there is nothing more important to store. Literally nothing.

You expect the game to function according to rules that do not exist. You expect resources to become abundant for... what reason exactly? This is the lynchpin of your argument. You assume that in a game where resource scarcity is the central lever upon which the rarity and avaliability of items is placed that at some point they're just go "hey, you know what, never mind, free mats for everyone!"

If you were that bothered about storage in 5.6 you you'd be using all of those poors and commons you're throwing away to build more storage. Or more vendor stalls. To sell those mats.

This isn't EVE. Mining isn't something I can do AFK while self running five clients in hisec. The fact that you waste materials you could be using because you only have yourself to worry about is not a stable economic indicator. I don't know where you get an idea that I want things instantly or that I want to solo anything. There's a big old guild banner under every post I make ffs. My complaints come from a person using these systems exactly how the game is designed for me to use them. I am dependant on others and they are dependant on me.

What I want is for hand crafting to stop taking unecessary amounts of time when it ALREADY takes ENOUGH time in terms of interface interactions and resource acquisition. You may understand this if you've ever had to make a stack of potions. An item with no experimentation points that is 90% waiting for crafting timers.

The fact that you play ineffeciently, mostly solo, and have no experience with what a wartime supply chain in video games actually looks like but still have the audacity to claim to know how a "war economy" should work boggles my mind.

You actually have no idea what you're talking about, but feel compelled to keep talking about it.

I never once said this was eve, you are the one who always brings it up..... well.  good luck in your way of doing things.  You totally went askew of what was originally brought up and now are just trying to bash me.  Our opinions on the original post differ vastly, and I don't really care who you are or what position you hold amongst others.  I gave my opinion just as you did, you didn't like it so started telling me I have no clue.  Good luck in which ever way you go.

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38 minutes ago, killerkat said:

I never once said this was eve, you are the one who always brings it up..... well.  good luck in your way of doing things.  You totally went askew of what was originally brought up and now are just trying to bash me.  Our opinions on the original post differ vastly, and I don't really care who you are or what position you hold amongst others.  I gave my opinion just as you did, you didn't like it so started telling me I have no clue.  Good luck in which ever way you go.

Please don't mistake my honest attempt at a debate as a personal attack. I have nothing against you personally and have no desire to "bash" you.

I apologize if I have given you the impression that this is somehow personal. I am extremely critical of the statements you have made at face value, and not you as a person.

I'm sure you're swell and I feel I've said everything I have to say in regards to your statements. Good luck out there!

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10 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

I'm just hoping crafting discs add like 2% to assembly chance baseline to cut the 3% base fail to 1%, and come in flavors for experimentation, assembly, and "exotic" recipe granting ones.

I doubt we see a disc like that, but factories will accomplish the same thing. Once you have a blueprint, you will be able to mass produce the item without failure. At least, that's my understanding of how it will work.

Factories are going to change a lot of things about crafting, as are crafting disciplines and thralls. Once that stuff is in, then I think we will be in a better position to evaluate the crafting system as a whole.

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