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Kittens bank, DKP, and feedback needed from devs


Nyamo
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Dear @thomasblair and @ACE_Jackal and whoever else can provide me with assistance, I would like to implement an in-game bank service and i need assistance to see if the system violates the TOS or what can I do to make something similar working without having troubles.

The draft of the document can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HhbkORZhSSBWK4gqmV23IPVf2AjonQti40pL8IO14iM/edit?usp=sharing

Basically is a DKP system (Dragon Kitten Points) for implementing a bank, called the Kitten Bank.
Any feedback is kindly appreciated.

Edited by Nyamo

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No a developer, but as outlined the major problem I can see here is that crowns, as far as I am aware, are not tradable or able to be "salvaged" by breaking down VIP.

So while your DKP system itself doesn't seem to break the TOS, you wouldn't be able to leverage crowns (untradable) but you would be able to offer VIP (which is tradable) as well as any other ingame tradable item as a commodity.

Basically, as the TOS states, anything that is tradable ingame can be traded, stolen, or given away for any reason provided those trades do not involve the transference of real world money.

As long as you don't actually offer DKP for real dollars, or allow real dollars to be spent on it you're probably fine. You can accept VIP or things purchased WITH real dollars provided you're not trying to back-convert them. The golden rule is basically that RMT items once purchased and consumed to generate an ingame item can only be value traded within the crowfall ecosystem. As long as you don't tie your credit system to any kind of currency outside of crowfall you should be fine since your credits value is only backup up and operable on the ingame value of items.

As a minor marketing note, you may have more success with this endeavor if you phrase the non-guild cost as standard the the guild cost as a discount rather than the other way around. Your nonguild customers are the ones you need to make it as attractive as possible to, so those are probably the people you want to ask to do less sales tax math.

Edited by PopeUrban

LMAO my website is broken please click this to apply to Flames of Exile (maybe, if that's not busted too)

On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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26 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

No a developer, but as outlined the major problem I can see here is that crowns, as far as I am aware, are not tradable or able to be "salvaged" by breaking down VIP.

So while your DKP system itself doesn't seem to break the TOS, you wouldn't be able to leverage crowns (untradable) but you would be able to offer VIP (which is tradable) as well as any other ingame tradable item as a commodity.

Basically, as the TOS states, anything that is tradable ingame can be traded, stolen, or given away for any reason provided those trades do not involve the transference of real world money.

Thank you so much for your feedback I really appreciate your kindness. I have reworded that part in this way:

In the future, when the game will be released, it will be possible to get VIP or other tradable Crown shop items using DKP and vice versa (you could donate VIP for getting DKP).
 

Do you think it is better this way? 

26 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

As a minor marketing note, you may have more success with this endeavor if you phrase the non-guild cost as standard the the guild cost as a discount rather than the other way around. Your nonguild customers are the ones you need to make it as attractive as possible to, so those are probably the people you want to ask to do less sales tax math.

Honestly while this would work very well with not-sought-after items (I mean who cares if we trade poor ores for  poor stones?), I imagine the demand to be really high for "ambrosia" and end-game gems, zombie hands or similar. If we give away legendary gems to non guild members for the same price that guild members have, the bank would benefit from this but the guild not. The bank is a tool and a service but the value is in the guild, not in the bank.

Edited by Nyamo

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15 minutes ago, Nyamo said:

Thank you so much for your feedback I really appreciate your kindness. I have reworded that part in this way:

In the future, when the game will be released, it will be possible to get VIP or other tradable Crown shop items using DKP and vice versa (you could donate VIP for getting DKP).
 

Do you think it is better this way? 

Honestly while this would work very well with not-sought-after items (I mean who cares if we trade poor ores for  poor stones?), I imagine the demand to be really high for "ambrosia" and end-game gems, zombie hands or similar. If we give away legendary gems to non guild members for the same price that guild members have, the bank would benefit from this but the guild not. The bank is a tool and a service but the value is in the guild, not in the bank.

Not to go off topic here, but as a potential customer I look at your system and wonder why i would pay you a 20% premium for an item I can get at cost elsewhere. In contrast, my own guild is a hive of filthy communists that trades with others at market value and employs heavy discounts (as in, guild members get what they need for free as long as they need it and the guild owns the products and means of production) for the guild.

I wouldn't pay you a 20% markup for gems I can get elsewhere for 20% less basically. I might join your guild for a 20% discount if I was alone and didn't have a stable economic base already. Its your system and you do what you want but as a potential customer considering whether or not to invest in it these are my thoughts.

My other thought is "why would I invest in DKP when I can invest in gold coins I can use anywhere in stead?"

If you can't provide a compelling answer to this question you may find it difficult to get people to create trade equity. Having a tax that is double the vendor tax may not be a great answer to this question for your potential customers.

LMAO my website is broken please click this to apply to Flames of Exile (maybe, if that's not busted too)

On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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10 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Not to go off topic here, but as a potential customer I look at your system and wonder why i would pay you a 20% premium for an item I can get at cost elsewhere. In contrast, my own guild is a hive of filthy communists that trades with others at market value and employs heavy discounts (as in, guild members get what they need for free as long as they need it and the guild owns the products and means of production) for the guild.

I wouldn't pay you a 20% markup for gems I can get elsewhere for 20% less basically. I might join your guild for a 20% discount if I was alone and didn't have a stable economic base already. Its your system and you do what you want but as a potential customer considering whether or not to invest in it these are my thoughts.

You are not going off-topic this is precious feedback. Of course there is no reason to get stuff here if you can find it somewhere else. If you are already in a stable economy system there is no reason for doing it. My goal is not to provide the best prices on the market. Is just to provide a service that works and that is not against the TOS. Also I am confident that our non-guild member customers will come here to get items they can't easily get in stores or in other EK or in their guild. One thing is sure the 20% number is arbitrary, may end up being a mere 5% or whatever. It is simply to differentiate "kittens" from "outsiders".
 

 

10 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

My other thought is "why would I invest in DKP when I can invest in gold coins I can use anywhere in stead?"

 

Why don't everyone use dollars on this planet? Why don't we all speak english? As each country has its own currency and language, we kittens have Dragon Kittens Points, our EK currency. I foresee brokers trading gold for DKP but it is like  change currency services in real world. Why not gold? We are kittens, we have kittens points. Kittens logic may be crazy to non kittens but not everything needs to be fully rationale. It is a game and we are here to have fun!

Edited by Nyamo

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6 minutes ago, Jah said:

How do you know you can get the same resources for 20% less elsewhere?

How do you know I can't?

LMAO my website is broken please click this to apply to Flames of Exile (maybe, if that's not busted too)

On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Just popping in to say PopeUrban is correct on the ToS part of it.

Quote

Basically, as the TOS states, anything that is tradable ingame can be traded, stolen, or given away for any reason provided those trades do not involve the transference of real world money.

 

Jack Kirby
Associate Writer/Customer Service Manager

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3 hours ago, ACE_Jackal said:

Just popping in to say PopeUrban is correct on the ToS part of it.

 

One more question now that you have so gently found the time to answer.
Since it will be possible to donate crown to the guild bank, may i reward people donating crowns with DKP or that will be a violation of the ToS?

 

Edited by Nyamo

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Here are my thoughts on this topic. I can understand the idea behind another currency, although the problem is you would have to refine it quite a lot. For one, we really can’t have it be called DKP because that means each guild would most likely want there own. You could basically come up with a “guild token” currency and you can call that whatever you want but it would have to be somewhat generic for each guild to have there own. I can see using this system to create a base for a government by giving the items in game a “value” but the economy of the game is too unstable for that right now since nobody really has a set price for anything. You can easily find the same item for cheaper or more expensive depending on where you look. I believe however, this could be a useful tool for guilds to use as a reward for being in a guild and actually behaving as a guild, running missions or farming materials together. This is a very basic idea and it still has a lot of thought to be added into it before it can be a real thing. 

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My 2 cents are: 

What DKP used to be in WoW is basically a virtual currency which was used by guilds to distribute otherwise non-tradable goods between guild members. A lot of the most sought after Items in that game were bound to a character on pickup and were impossible to sell or buy on the open market. Everyone wanted them, but only some could get, and thus guilds used DKP to rate their members contribution to then reward them with those non-tradable items.

While that system worked great for that purpose, it's highly unlikely to be of any use applied to freely tradable goods. If there is free market in the future Crowfall, every good will have it's market price in gold or dust or whatever the most commonly used currency is. In such case, there is no point in coming up with an artificial currency and more importantly artificial pricing for the guild bank. 

However, some kind of Guild Contribution Points system could be very good *IF* there are goods or services that a guild can offer otherwise unattainable by solo players. I can easily imagine some sort of 'Guild Quests' when for example DKP is rewarded to everyone who contributes stone to build a new parcel for the guild, which they can later turn in for a chance on raid boss loot or a run of the guild-owned factory, for example.

Edited by shukin
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2 hours ago, Kamiwaffle said:

you would have to refine it quite a lot

Yes and thanks god we are in pre-alpha. So, assuming we screw big few times should'nt be a problem since everything will get wiped anyway. And ofc a full game wipe will be a DKP wipe too, and I am confident that from here to launch we would have probably found a good system. Feedback from player using the Kittens Bank would be really important (like i think you should raise the value of this item and lower the value of this other one).

2 hours ago, Kamiwaffle said:

we really can’t have it be called DKP because that means each guild would most likely want there own.

Come on you can't be serious on this. Who on crowfall if not ushave interest in calling their currency  Dragon KITTENS Points? 

2 hours ago, Kamiwaffle said:

I can see using this system to create a base for a government by giving the items in game a “value” but the economy of the game is too unstable for that right now since nobody really has a set price for anything. You can easily find the same item for cheaper or more expensive depending on where you look.

while you can use the external market as a reference doesn't mean we have to follow their rules. The table i want to make is based on the time required a certain resource, not on its effective market value. for me mining iron and gold is the same amount of time. Hides takes more and hides value will surely change before the system goes live. If you can find a better trade in the market feel free to go to the market. and if you can use the bank to profit OFF the market you are welcome.

2 hours ago, shukin said:

While that system worked great for that purpose, it's highly unlikely to be of any use applied to freely tradable goods. If there is free market in the future Crowfall, every good will have it's market price in gold or dust or whatever the most commonly used currency is. In such case, there is no point in coming up with an artificial currency and more importantly artificial pricing for the guild bank. 

There are plenty of reasons for having our own currency, the first one being that i cannot print gold or dust. But i can print how many DKP i want.
Regarding the "artificial" pricing that would be a point if I would force you all to use it. But I am not. The kitten bank is a completely optional system and you are free to run your own bank with a system you think fits your players needs.

2 hours ago, shukin said:

However, some kind of Guild Contribution Points system could be very good *IF* there are goods or services that a guild can offer otherwise unattainable by solo players. I can easily imagine some sort of 'Guild Quests' when for example DKP is rewarded to everyone who contributes stone to build a new parcel for the guild, which they can later turn in for a chance on raid boss loot or a run of the guild-owned factory, for example.

I think i wrote about this in discord and let me paste it here:

 

Bank is just a tool to help people interact with other members in a fair way and i foresee lot of "poor" players that will want to buy VIP with in-game currency, not to mentions donations for increasing guild parcels and buildings. I mean i do not think the two excludes the other. you can still farm with your friends and ignore bank altogether or you can put a part of the loot in the bank for saving dkp and later trade them for something you don't have specialization like hides for instance.

So if you are specilized in ores, you can fairly trade them with hides, and setting up a system just makes it fair for everyone; also you may want to save to get a legendary gem or whatever or if you donate mats for making a bigger parcel it is in your rights to get a reward for your donation. DKP and the bank should help fixing that problem and put everyone on the same feet but the use of the bank is by no mean obligatory to be honest this guild has no obligations at all if not posting cute cats pics once in a while.

 

End of the discord discussion. I took the liberty to edit grammar errors and made the text more readable for the use in the forum and bolded the part i think were relevant to the discussion.  So, as you see, we are on the same feet  (or kitten pad) on this matter.

Edited by Nyamo
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Version 2 of the draft uploaded. The link is the same. We introduce player debt (for new players that need gear) and anti-scam measures. Any feedback is kindly appreciated.

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