Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
mandalore

Food > PvP

Recommended Posts

11 minutes ago, Helix said:

I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that losing due to starvation in a competitive pvp game is fun. I'd rather die because someone clubbed me over the head.

My point is, fights probably shouldn't last so long that the deciding factor is food.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mitigation inflation is a real issue.

  • Overwhelming Odds is TOO good. If you're group fighting, you take it. No question.
  • Everyone goes up at least one armor class. (One minor is easy)

Overwhelming nerfed, armor minors needing a passive to work, and Leather/Mail chest getting the dmg bonus of the side pieces would all diversify builds and make it harder for everyone to just turtle and die to food.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Food useage is insanely high, needs to be changed.

 

I run overwhelming odds, sturdy and plate prof.  There are no viable healing options in minors so my only options are tanking.  I have garbage tier plate but if every choice I’ve made for my char is to be tanky (human, armor tree, all the def training in my pure blood tree, all def minors) then you’re going to need to adjust your build to counter that.  Defensive builds def need some tweaking but part of that is just bad minor disc viability. 

 

In case you didn’t know, this game is theorycrafted off his other game.  In his other game if you didn’t run antihealing (just one clutch person with it) you would be hard pressed to kill people in organized fights.  I see very few assys in game play but they get that poorly made socks by default.  I don’t see very many plague lords or reality warper debuffs either.  People are often unwilling to be flexible in their builds and then complain about viability.  

 

If you make armor prof take a passive you might as well remove them.  Not everything needs to be tied to a passive.  The prob is viability of other minors, not the few that are good.  Most of the minors are just terrible. 

 

 

 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally think mitigation stacking is waaaay too strong in this game. And as a result it makes it really hard to balance damage and healing. If mitigation stacking is high, then you need to buff damage. but then if someone doesn't stack mitigation, they die way too fast. it's almost like a rock/paper/scissors that just benefits ALWAYS building tanky because base class kits have the damage/cc that you need already

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly why don't we just offset food penalties until you leave combat?

Leave the ticker mechanic alone, but you're FIGHTING FOR YOUR LIFE so the adrenaline doesn't allow you to suffer the practical effects of loss while fighting. The minute you stop being stressed out by combat, bam, all of the food penalties come in to play.

This removes food's effect on single engagement while maintaining its impact in the long term strategic capacity of determining readiness for an engagement.

Also yeah, mitigation stacks too high in the current system. Pretty funny because not too long ago we were complaining the penetration was too good.

Maybe healing from external sources should suffer some of that mitigation, and require more avaliable sources of PHM gear to offset it? I could see it being belivable that its just plain harder to heal someone in plate with three magical wards stacked on him than some dude in leather just due to the difficulty of accessing the wound visually or with magic or whatever. This would require people to make a build choice between stacking mitigation or stacking PHM. Mitigation by default would make you more self sufficient, but PHM would make you more reliant on external heals. Currently the +healing modifier on leather/chain isn't really significant statwise for anyone but healers. What if leather chests had great PHM by default, chain was "middle of the road" with lesser multipliers and PHM, plate kept getting none of the above, and mitigations applied a portion of that mitigation to heals as well?

Edited by PopeUrban

PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

Also yeah, mitigation stacks too high in the current system. Pretty funny because not too long ago we were complaining the penetration was too good.

 

This may also be due to people privileging armor specialization to weapon specialization. Since there was a skill wipe recently if someone has picked armor he is still probably finishing the armor tree without any investment in the weapon one. Give one more month and people should have had time to train both. The data may be biased due to the decision of the majority to pick mitigation first.

PS: i'm saying this based on my own character. I picked armor and I haven't finished it yet and I have player regularly everyday investing all the possible points and i think it will take me more or less 3-4 weeks before my weapon tree will reach the investment the armor one has now.

Edited by Nyamo

catfall-logo-typo-small.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I understand that the devs want food to be important but when 40 apples isn't enough for a 6v6 something needs to be adjusted. It is not an exaggeration when people are saying these fights are being decided by food.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. I would enjoy knowing the group make ups.  (Just want to know if the "broken" mechanics where being used?)

2. If you are fighting an equal group shouldn't the fights have something to mitigate? And food is a good way, especially as it gets scarcer as winter comes along.  It basically is all about siege.  Fights will be over land/nodes as it's all a siege and about who can get the most the fastest in order to win the long drawn out fights.  Why do you think everyone steals food in every singe fight!!

3.  If mana users know this requirement shouldn't they be prepared for it.  IMO it's no difference than other games and mana management.  I only play cleric and never had an issue with food in a fight nor mana problems (granted I suck so probably I will never last more the 2 minutes.  LOL)  But one thing I know for sure is I always have extra food on me.  And in a fight I do not let me food go below where I start having to worry about any thing not regening.  To me i'ts all about management. 

4.  Controlled environments are ALWAYS different from actual.  may I ask how many actual fights you have had that lasted 15+ minutes?

 


Killerkat

support expert

www.infernalgamers.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, killerkat said:

1. I would enjoy knowing the group make ups.  (Just want to know if the "broken" mechanics where being used?)

2. If you are fighting an equal group shouldn't the fights have something to mitigate? And food is a good way, especially as it gets scarcer as winter comes along.  It basically is all about siege.  Fights will be over land/nodes as it's all a siege and about who can get the most the fastest in order to win the long drawn out fights.  Why do you think everyone steals food in every singe fight!!

3.  If mana users know this requirement shouldn't they be prepared for it.  IMO it's no difference than other games and mana management.  I only play cleric and never had an issue with food in a fight nor mana problems (granted I suck so probably I will never last more the 2 minutes.  LOL)  But one thing I know for sure is I always have extra food on me.  And in a fight I do not let me food go below where I start having to worry about any thing not regening.  To me i'ts all about management. 

4.  Controlled environments are ALWAYS different from actual.  may I ask how many actual fights you have had that lasted 15+ minutes?

 

1.  No punch drunk was used, tried to use stuff we knew wasn’t being nerfed and each side only had one Standards bearer. 

2.  Equal fights aren’t exactly common.  I like the food mechanic impacting sieges and larger skirmishes over a period of hours of back and forth but a straight 15 minute 6v6 and the only factor was which healer went oom first from starving or dying from starving isn’t exactly a skill based mechanic. 

3.  Mana users getting custarded while rangers have inf ammo quivers or inf ammo duelists really makes the later more playable.  Rangers already have the best range, can swap to any damage type and nearly inf ammo/sustained dmg but are not affected by this food/mana issue like anybody who uses mana. 

4.  Each side had 2 healers but we swapped comps for both fights.  There were a few rangers, an assy, a knight or two, a champion and myrm.  We had no fessors, no duelists and no scim Druid’s.  We only had time for two but it was clear they only reason a side was going to win was starving both times.  It’s an odd mechanic fir What seemed like a normal group vs group. 

 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, killerkat said:

3.  If mana users know this requirement shouldn't they be prepared for it.  IMO it's no difference than other games and mana management.  I only play cleric and never had an issue with food in a fight nor mana problems (granted I suck so probably I will never last more the 2 minutes.  LOL)  But one thing I know for sure is I always have extra food on me.  And in a fight I do not let me food go below where I start having to worry about any thing not regening.  To me i'ts all about management. 

 

Why should only mana users have to worry about managing food though? As it stands they are the only class that get screwed over in long fights. Druids dont use mana (as far as i know) so it doesnt effect them since they use essence which they gain from healing. Rage isnt effected either, its a resource gained through attacking (or a bit over time or with certain skill procs) so champions dont have to worry about food either. Fury might be effected somewhat but because of the myrmidons 2 ability, they can still ignore the effects of starvation if it even effects them. Pip Classes (Assassin, Duelist, Templar) also suffer no detriment or penalty to starvation. I dont consider no regen a detriment if they are still able to be healed by themselves or their allies, combat regen is trash anyways.

Basically if a group has no mana based classes, a healer or 2, and possibly some personal sustain, they can completely ignore the effects of starvation, and if this continues to be a thing, i cant see Mana based classes being all that useful in long drawn out fights especially longer sieges. If food is supposed to be something that people are actually supposed to track and manage, they need to make its penalties more severe and make the penalties more evenly distributed through the different types of classes, cause right now mana classes are getting shafted and the other classes are getting nothing.

I personally spent over 10 mins in a fight once with 0 Hunger and didnt even notice untill we left the fort chasing down the enemies and i looted a body that had alot of food on it. I was a champion and had a cleric and druid behind me keeping me patched up if i fell below 40% HP. Even our druid was sitting around 3 chicken for a majority of the fight cause they had very little food on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact that caster dmg classes are just a waste of space atm is part of this. No pinpoint damage from fessor ect. Hopefully some of the tweaks to get them right and the introduction to frost weaver will change things. Hell i would like a class that causes hunger lol! Imagine hitting someone and bringing their hungermeter down in a sustained fight.

Sad making someone hungry would be more beneficial than straight sad confessor damage and current CC.

Another thing to note is the lack of a tree black-mantal We can not stop the healing currently the mantels are super weak a 500point health mantel is just poorly made socks.

Edited by dolmar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dolmar said:

Another thing to note is the lack of a tree black-mantal We can not stop the healing currently the mantels are super weak a 500point health mantel is just poorly made socks.

Assassin has a 2k barrier which was helped kill people at lower gear levels. I think the item scaling is more of an issue, in particular armor. They need to make discs scale linearly with gear. White discs should have lower stats, skills, and passives then green blue, etc. 

As for food  its one of those mechanics I like in theory, but it's cumbersome during combat. Scale it back, or allow ways for players to reduce their food consumption through training, armor stat, or by using food created by cooking experts.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Zatch said:

As for food  its one of those mechanics I like in theory, but it's cumbersome during combat. Scale it back, or allow ways for players to reduce their food consumption through training, armor stat, or by using food created by cooking experts.  

That appears to the majority viewpoint.

 

-fingers crossed- 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/28/2018 at 12:31 PM, KrakkenSmacken said:

This.

I remember early plans of "no firehose healers".  Well maybe if fights are lasting 15 minutes, the problem is that the healers are too powerful.

Leaving the food the way it is would be an interesting way to measure the balance point.  Fights won via food, vs fights won by damage. 

Besides, food is supposed to matter in later game... ALOT.

If that's the goal, asking for its importance to be lowered or removed is simply a non-starter.

I don't think food should be a "fight timer". Food in general feels like another tedium, so hopefully they find a way to make it important but not directly neuter players to the point of not actually enjoying the game anymore.

As far as "no fire hose healing" goes, I always felt that was impractical. A complete fantasy. You have fire hose damage but no fire hose healing to act as a counter weight? I think eventually the devs saw that this was just not practical, and the current situation with groups running around 2 healers (cause 1 healer is usually a sitting duck) is one of the results of that that earlier thinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In order for food to be important, for the related racial differences to matter, for the no stam or no hp regen states to be relevant, then hunger must have some significant impact. Obviously it should not be excessive like it is now, but it must be impactful. I think there are only three things wrong with the food situation right now which once resolved, will solve this 'problem'.

First, the food system itself - from collection to crafting, is incomplete. We cannot even cook food at the cooking crafting station, to say nothing of mass-producing food at factories or collecting or harvesting it using the coming Gathering skill or Farming. This will change things significantly. Once that is in place, then we will see more sellers producing food at higher rates, and it will be treated like a commodity, just like anything else we see frequently bought or sold. I touch on this in the next Bloody Point video, but food is a big part of the entry level economy, and it is one which is not being realized fully right now - something I hope to see change.

The last issue is that yes, food consumption is too extreme, in a moment to moment sense, when you are being active in combat and doing things like dodging or using stam. It is possible that this will be resolved once the 2 previously-mentioned issues are addressed, so that you have more food on your bar and it is simply a question of pressing the associated number - like having a power in your tray that refills your food (maybe food should be able to be slotted in any tray) - but it might be the case that the mechanic needs to be toned down or even modified...

One way of doing this might be through the introduction of a food cart, or a pack animal, which you can load with food like a hippo, which you move to your area of operation, that generates a food-repentishment effect much like a campfire, but that is wider ranging and long lasting. Maybe even something that grants the effect over an entire parcel. This would open up gameplay, as finding and destroying the food cart would become important.

Like many parts of Crowfall right now, I just don't think enough pieces of the puzzle are in place for us to make a definite judgment on it yet. Even though I feel it is too extreme and that there are issues to be resolved, we still have the power to solve this problem ourselves right now - if you have enough food on you, and slotted, especially Golden Apples, the problem is solved. Producing that food, having it on hand after field deaths and respawns etc...these too are things we can solved, but it is work. Do we want to do that work, or to have to? I do not know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Anthrage said:

One way of doing this might be through the introduction of a food cart, or a pack animal, which you can load with food like a hippo, which you move to your area of operation, that generates a food-repentishment effect much like a campfire, but that is wider ranging and long lasting. Maybe even something that grants the effect over an entire parcel. This would open up gameplay, as finding and destroying the food cart would become important.

 

Personally I would like to see a food "equip" slot (for lack of a better term), that automatically "ate" from that slot ticker with whatever was equipped in it the moment you hit the first penalty.

The different food quality, restoration levels, stack size, buffs applied for specific food, would be what made the food different. Stock apples, and you only get half a ticker when it runs out. Stock a different food, and that restores three full tickers so you don't have the eating animation distraction so often.

Now if you forgot to stack and fill that slot, or were unable to do so, would be the deciding factor, but it would remove the monotony of the current implementation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whatever they do the current rate in consumption is monsterously high and should be adjusted. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/28/2018 at 11:37 AM, DocHollidaze said:

The assumption here is that the devs or wider player audience desires 6v6 fights that last more than 15 minutes, and so food req should be curtailed to enable that?

Mm..not the takeaway for me. Food should be a factor of the overarching strategy of the game, sure, but in my book, the major determining factor in who wins in pvp - even in a protracted 6v6 fight - shouldn't be the chicken ticker.

[Edit: I read more of the posts on the second page after posting this, and like a lot of the ideas. ^^-b]

Maybe the answer is reducing the impact of starvation? If the drawback isn't one that is going to single-handedly lose you a fight, then it won't be as severe of an issue in combat, but if it serves to make it more difficult for you to persist in other areas as well, it could still cost you a campaign.

I'm not sure exactly what that would look like, but regardless, I don't think it should be possible to win a duel of any duration by starving your opponent to death, even indirectly.

Edit: maybe a better answer is to raise the floor and the ceiling for food buffs - remove the penalties associated with starvation, but either proportionately or even further increase the benefits, especially for rarer and higher quality foods.

That way, not having a food buff will never single-handedly knock you out of a fight, but HAVING a food buff will be a significant boon. This serves to both place value on food and prevent the lack of it from being the single most important thing in combat.

I hate to use one of my least favorite things from late in Shadowbane's life cycle as a point of reference here, but the absolute hogwash Greater Concoction Potions you could buy from any alchemy vendor toward the end of the game's life actually functioned fairly efficiently, even though they were drastically overpowered, in my estimation. For people who played Shadowbane before they got added:

Constitution +55 for 3600 seconds 
Strength +55 for 3600 seconds 
Intelligence +55 for 3600 seconds 
Spirit +55 for 3600 seconds 
Dexterity +55 for 3600 seconds 
Defense +145 for 3600 seconds 
Mana Regeneration +135% for 3600 seconds 
Attack Delay -36% for 3600 seconds
Does not stack with healer blessings or wizard enchantments.

This might have been overpowered, except that everybody had one active all the time, no exceptions. They basically served as a crutch for systems that had been tuned and re-tuned so many times that they no longer resembled their original intent, and by just existing, they served to speed up the pace of combat.

So..as a proof of concept, at least, they work, though as I said, they were among my least favorite parts of the game. But being able to have powerful, but less generalized, food buffs that granted large and narrow bonuses might be a sound solution, here. Starvation might no longer hamper all of your base resource regeneration and prevent you from hitting buttons, but the lack of a food buff could represent being much more squishy or hitting much less hard or..any number of valuable things that might be further supplemented for shorter durations by alchemy.

Add to that some campaign-success-specific drawback for starvation, like maybe..reduced building/crafting/repair speeds or something something morale, and it would still be a valid strategic choice to starve out an opponent during a campaign, but without being able to starve them out of a duel.

I dunno, I'm just spitballing, here. Maybe this is a terrible idea that I'd scoff at in the morning.

Edit: actually, now that I think about it, that's sounding an awful lot like how Elder Scrolls Online handles food and alchemy. Food buffs last an hour or two and usually impact health/stamina/magicka and/or regen rates for the same, while alchemy bonuses last closer to 45 seconds and have much more diverse and interesting effects.

But..their approach does work quite well, and allows for a reasonable amount of diversity in what gets used where. I'd like to see Crowfall do a lot more with the systems than ESO does, though, regardless of how similar or different their systems end up being.

Just for an idea of scale, though, as a DPS, your food buff accounts for about 1/4 - 1/3 of your max health and around 10-15% of your maximum [relevant resource] and [relevant resource regen rate], depending on how exactly you choose to buff yourself through food. At the same level, rarer foods provide more buffs, but less of each, while less rare foods provide more of fewer buffs. So if you, a stamina-centric character, have 12k hp, 30k stamina, and 1500 stamina regen per tick without a food buff, you could opt for a blue food with 5k health and 4.5k stamina, or a purple food with 3.5k health, 3k stamina, and 300 stamina regen per tick, or...something else, I guess?

Meanwhile, alchemy could heal 8k stamina, health, and magicka, and provide you with 20% more regen for each of those for the next 45 seconds, or could nix the health and the magicka in exchange for increasing your stamina damage by 20% and critical rating by 15% for the duration, or..a number of other possible combinations, both offensive and defensive.

The number of viable options is small, but not negligible. I'd like to see the number of viable options be large, but the reality is that there will likely always be 2-3 "best" foods/potions/stats/etc etc etc once the minmaxers get their hands on them, so I'm not sure how much dev time is the correct amount to dedicate to this, beyond ensuring that the primary issue detailed in the first post isn't gamebreaking.

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I think of 'the food problem', I am reminded of how I used to think of 'the Essence problem', and how difficult and annoying it used to be to manage Essence of a druid. These days, with all of the various powers that relate to essence management now working, with players being deep in training and having good gear, this is no longer a problem. If anything, it can be hard sometimes to gain essence - Essence Burn is a thing of the past for the most part.

That said, as I mentioned before, changes can certainly be explored. Another option could relate to the Constitution Attribute - some of us have long felt that Con doesn't do enough when compared to the other attributes. I have thought that perhaps it could be changed to also buff a player's poison or disease resists. Maybe having it grant a hunge-related buff would be good as well.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...