beandip

game mechanics leans too far on gathering

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Posted (edited)

it just seems to me that from your point of view theres nothing we should talk about since... you know what

its pre-alpha.

custard it.

 

forums are for bitching

forums are for ideas

forums are to push the game in a certain direction.

 

 

Edited by beandip

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Trying to sell someone on a game in pre-alpha based on available gameplay features in pre-alpha is like trying to sell someone a table based on a single table leg.

Obviously that leg will not have all the features and functionality of a finished table, because it is not a finished table.

Stop treating it like it should work as well as a finished table and suddenly, your expectations are being met.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, beandip said:

it just seems to me that from your point of view theres nothing we should talk about since... you know what

its pre-alpha.

custard it.

 

forums are for bitching

forums are for ideas

forums are to push the game in a certain direction.

Yes, and as other people have pointed out, the valid parts of your commentary have already got many many many many MANY active threads filled with productive discussion on how to further the game in the future. Why not go read some of those and educate yourself instead of arguing with someone you don't think is open to productive discussion?

Edit: also, no, forums are not for bitching. The fact that people go to them to gripe notwithstanding.

This isn't your dumpster when you're having a bad day, and if you try to treat it as such, expect some vitriol to come flying back out, because some of us recognize that the dev team works their ass off to make this game come to life, and would like to see them appreciated and successful when the game launches.

Edited by goose

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1 minute ago, beandip said:

thank you good sir i will. i fart in your general direction. may you have a good day.

..and I'm the one not open to productive discussion. Fair enough.

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do you Agree , or disagree, and if so why and if yes maybe bring some ideas to the table, if disagree then state reasons and counter arguments . don't come into forum and post nothing about the discussion mr. vet.

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The new player experience ("NPE") is awful.  Without training in harvesting it is painfully slow.

Eventually you can pull down thousands of ore per hour in a group, but its completely valid to point out that many noobs will never see that day if the NPE sucks.

The Devs are aware the NPE is not great, but have said they are waiting until closer to launch to do polishing on it. 

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, beandip said:

do you Agree , or disagree, and if so why and if yes maybe bring some ideas to the table, if disagree then state reasons and counter arguments . don't come into forum and post nothing about the discussion mr. vet.

I wasn't referring to myself when I pointed out your animosity toward vets. I came in here being a bit of a hooligan because of what I read from you earlier in the thread. Your disrespect and unwillingness to have reasonable discussions was the basis I started from, so I didn't expect any different.

But...this also does sort of drive the point home, no?

Edit: just to reiterate, I agree with some of what you've said and disagree with some of what you've said, but I disagree with how you've said all of it, and how blatantly unwilling you are to accept anyone who disagrees with any part of what you say might have a point.

I've seen how you treat anyone who doesn't immediately agree with everything you say, and I'm not really interested in having a discussion if you continue to do so, as you have so far continued to do.

Some of your complaints are valid complaints that have been addressed in other threads and by the developers. No need to rehash the same arguments over again. Instead, I've tried to provide with the tools to find the other discussions, those tools being A: the forums, and B: the link in my signature. And C: reading, I guess.

Use them as you will.

Edited by goose

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the beandips never gonna run around, never gonna let you down,

never gonna lie

never gonna say

goodbye

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On 29.06.2018 at 11:30 PM, beandip said:

Give me a server where i can just kill people and you'll see the testing population double => triple => quadruple

50k backers       <1% testing .... i wonder why

You'll see the gathering server go to nil.

 

 

 

 

1."Give me a server where i can just kill people"
You mean the abattoir server? That ,from what i saw , at most had 15 people on it?The testing population didn't go over the roof when abattoir servers were up, barely anyone played on them.

2. "50K backers <1% testing"
I'm a backer but i'm not testing curently. Is it because the game leans too far on gathering? Nop, it just doesn't work on my pc, this patch just doesn't want to work on my system.

 

3."The game mechanics leans too far on gathering" Doubt it, I'm a pvper, and 99% of my time in game was roaming and having fights.

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On 6/28/2018 at 4:07 PM, beandip said:

So as it stands....

I'd say 2 hours spent gathering

30 minutes crafting

2 minutes doing pvp

 

 

 

 

"i gather resources to craft.                                                                      I pvp to run away so i can not lose my resources

i craft to build gear                                                                                    i gather resources to make cool gear

 i build gear so i can -- PVP -> desired  mechanics               i need cool gear to stay alive longer to farm more resources and build stuff in forts --> current mechanics

 

at what point can i stop playing runescape

There are ALOT of "I" in there.  You shouldn't be doing all of that.  I gather, and don't craft crap.  My combat skills are in survivability, not killing.  I rely on others to craft for me.  I rely on others to keep me alive so not to lose durability or the cash of mats in my inventory.  This is a team based game.  Not a 1 man show.  I am happy going days without fighting, or crafting.  I am happy spending my 8+ hours a day harvesting.

You want to spend all your time pvp'n, great!  Find a guild that will support you in doing that.  

You want to craft all day, great!!  find a guild that will support you in doing that

You want to harvest all day, great!!  I am sure any guild will be happy to have you.

But trying to do it all solo, is not the intentions of this game.  One of our main pvp'r that is all he does, is pvp.  We gather for him, we craft for him, and he brings in loots.

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On 6/29/2018 at 1:21 PM, beandip said:

 

guild or no guild , losing 100 durability just hurts way too much.

Rez is no durability loss!  :D  Just say'n

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I agree the mechanics look good on paper but now that I have seen how long it takes to gather and craft these disposable items I see some flaws in the system.

If you are the guild Gatherer / Crafter  how long before you get burned out making armor / weapons and what ever for the guild to use up constantly. And If you find yourself solo gathering and crafting at some point your just going to wonder why am I doing this when I can just go as a independent crafter and sell stuff to players, then use that money to buy materials to make more items and make a business out of it instead of being in a guild.

It is completely obvious to me what the Crafters and Gatherers bring to the table in a Guild but It is still a bit fuzzy to me what value the PvP players are adding to the equation. I am hoping that there will be 100% crafter guilds that come out of it and sell their goods to the PvP players but I am not sure how the PvPers will ever earn enough money to buy what it is they need.

I hope the game does not end up that you spend Sunday through Thursday replacing armor and weapons just to you can go out and PvP on Friday and Saturday and have it all destroyed.

Making items for free so your comrades can have it all sounds like communism. Making it and selling it to them for a profit is Capitalism.

Given the choice If I was going to be in a guild I would much prefer to be the player who gets free Armor / Weapons / And Gear and also gets to enjoy the fun of capturing Forts and killing other players there is basically no down side to this. I just show up get my goodies head on out and have fun come back and get some slave to replace my stuff and go back out and have fun again.

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A large portion of the content and mechanics is not in the game. So I’m not sure why you wouldn’t consider it a pre-alpha. I’m surprised I am enjoying this game in its very early state so that is a very good sign. 

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8 hours ago, Merrex said:

I agree the mechanics look good on paper but now that I have seen how long it takes to gather and craft these disposable items I see some flaws in the system.

If you are the guild Gatherer / Crafter  how long before you get burned out making armor / weapons and what ever for the guild to use up constantly. And If you find yourself solo gathering and crafting at some point your just going to wonder why am I doing this when I can just go as a independent crafter and sell stuff to players, then use that money to buy materials to make more items and make a business out of it instead of being in a guild.

It is completely obvious to me what the Crafters and Gatherers bring to the table in a Guild but It is still a bit fuzzy to me what value the PvP players are adding to the equation. I am hoping that there will be 100% crafter guilds that come out of it and sell their goods to the PvP players but I am not sure how the PvPers will ever earn enough money to buy what it is they need.

I hope the game does not end up that you spend Sunday through Thursday replacing armor and weapons just to you can go out and PvP on Friday and Saturday and have it all destroyed.

Making items for free so your comrades can have it all sounds like communism. Making it and selling it to them for a profit is Capitalism.

Given the choice If I was going to be in a guild I would much prefer to be the player who gets free Armor / Weapons / And Gear and also gets to enjoy the fun of capturing Forts and killing other players there is basically no down side to this. I just show up get my goodies head on out and have fun come back and get some slave to replace my stuff and go back out and have fun again.

Let me tell you how we fixed this in our guild. 
Mind that we just reached 100 members and we have usually 2 new members joining everyday so you can imagine how painful it is to craft gear to feed to a lot of new players that you barely know since they just joined.

So we decided to introduce a point system, our original variant of DKP (Dragon Kitten Points) . So basically contributing to guild activities earns you dkp which then you spend to get gear or mats. Each gatherable mat as a price per unit in dkp and crafters takes a percentage based on the total amount of the points of the raw materials. So basically they "sell" their services to the guild, like if they would do with vendors. Well you could say why not sell directly for gold and the reason that at the moment is making everyone happy is that better quality mats are behind a point wall. So get access to the good stuff you need to actively contribute. 

In your case, if  a crafter goes on the free market, i doubt will ever find someone selling him legendary gems, or even if they do they would probably costs tons of gold. Here instead all the material gathered is still distributed for trough the guild and crafter have access to high end stuff without having to give their services away for free.

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  I guess my biggest issue with this topic is the sheer number of established players telling Beandip that if doesn't like how the game is structured at the moment then he should flat out find a different game to play. One of the drivers of a game is the community and this one already seems to be getting hostile to new players. How is that gonna work out when they see that and new players stop joining?

  The New Player Experience (NPE) is rough and as this is prealpha there are many things the devs could to so new players have a better start.

 There could be some intro quests that actually introduce the new player to the mechanics at the end of which they are granted either a set or giving the resources to make a set of intermediate tools/armor just to get started. It shouldn't hurt anything as long as you make it clear its for the purpose of prealpha and you are giving people a look into how the game should work after one clears the first few days.

 Another option would be to start all prealpha testers with the first section of combat/harvest/exploration filled so they can skip that first few hours/days of not being able to do much to see what the game is like once you have invested the first few days in the game.

 And another option would to be make the current campaign work in a way where the forts actually collect resources for which ever faction has control over them. So once people have their first set of gear they can maintain it through pvp if they so choose.

 And yet another would be to implement a mentor/student system where people who are established can earn something worth the time to introduce new players to the game.

 I get people are tired of hearing the gripe that the game is no fun in the beginning. There are likely many more that do not gripe and do not stick around. If there is no appeal for new players to play why should people who are considering investing in the game spend the money to unlock access? 

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1 hour ago, Darwick said:

  I guess my biggest issue with this topic is the sheer number of established players telling Beandip that if doesn't like how the game is structured at the moment then he should flat out find a different game to play. One of the drivers of a game is the community and this one already seems to be getting hostile to new players. How is that gonna work out when they see that and new players stop joining?

  The New Player Experience (NPE) is rough and as this is prealpha there are many things the devs could to so new players have a better start.

 There could be some intro quests that actually introduce the new player to the mechanics at the end of which they are granted either a set or giving the resources to make a set of intermediate tools/armor just to get started. It shouldn't hurt anything as long as you make it clear its for the purpose of prealpha and you are giving people a look into how the game should work after one clears the first few days.

 Another option would be to start all prealpha testers with the first section of combat/harvest/exploration filled so they can skip that first few hours/days of not being able to do much to see what the game is like once you have invested the first few days in the game.

 And another option would to be make the current campaign work in a way where the forts actually collect resources for which ever faction has control over them. So once people have their first set of gear they can maintain it through pvp if they so choose.

 And yet another would be to implement a mentor/student system where people who are established can earn something worth the time to introduce new players to the game.

 I get people are tired of hearing the gripe that the game is no fun in the beginning. There are likely many more that do not gripe and do not stick around. If there is no appeal for new players to play why should people who are considering investing in the game spend the money to unlock access? 

I have voiced my concerns about new players before many times. New players are going to get absolutely  destroyed out in PvP and will end up leaving the game before they have a chance to give it a try. Because there is no newbie area or safe zone for them to grow up into and learn the game mechanics they will not be prepared for what awaits them.

After trying a few times to gather resources to get upgraded gear and losing hours of work from being killed and looted by other players they might just give up right away. The only way a new player might find things easy is if they have connections to players who can give them good gear and show them the ropes.

Why not provide a small niche for solo players who do not have time to play more than a hour or two each day but still want to provide a way to feel like they are contributing to the greater good. The more player types you can attract the more money flows into the game and more money flowing into the game means more development and continued health of the game over all.

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1 hour ago, Darwick said:

  The New Player Experience (NPE) is rough and as this is prealpha there are many things the devs could to so new players have a better start.

Todd already has stated that the NPE isnt something they want to spend resources on at the moment as there are much more features to implement and more than likely the NPE would need to be revised and revised everytime new or changed features are put into the game.

By the time the larger majority of new players check out the game in beta there should be a pretty developed NPE. At the moment its not hard to just ask questions in general chat

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4 minutes ago, Merrex said:

I have voiced my concerns about new players before many times. New players are going to get absolutely  destroyed out in PvP and will end up leaving the game before they have a chance to give it a try. Because there is no newbie area or safe zone for them to grow up into and learn the game mechanics they will not be prepared for what awaits them.

literally next patch this is happening....

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Merrex said:

I have voiced my concerns about new players before many times. New players are going to get absolutely  destroyed out in PvP and will end up leaving the game before they have a chance to give it a try. Because there is no newbie area or safe zone for them to grow up into and learn the game mechanics they will not be prepared for what awaits them.

After trying a few times to gather resources to get upgraded gear and losing hours of work from being killed and looted by other players they might just give up right away. The only way a new player might find things easy is if they have connections to players who can give them good gear and show them the ropes.

Why not provide a small niche for solo players who do not have time to play more than a hour or two each day but still want to provide a way to feel like they are contributing to the greater good. The more player types you can attract the more money flows into the game and more money flowing into the game means more development and continued health of the game over all.

Pre-Alpha problem, and a bit of an educational one.

Pre-Alpha because all the heavy hitting guilds are in the same world as the newbs.  The expectation is that once there is population to support, the newbs will have to deal more with each other than pros, due to lower resource worlds not being interesting to the big guild players. Of course there will be trolls, but I expect with the new gates systems it will be easy enough for ACE to build off a larger beachhead safe space that only allows same faction players to port in.

Educational, because with multiple servers up at once and low population, and massive import/export limits, it should be easy to simply look at the population on any server and since your not fighting, just go farm on the least occupied server to reduce risk.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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