beandip

game mechanics leans too far on gathering

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3 hours ago, Darwick said:

  I guess my biggest issue with this topic is the sheer number of established players telling Beandip that if doesn't like how the game is structured at the moment then he should flat out find a different game to play. One of the drivers of a game is the community and this one already seems to be getting hostile to new players. How is that gonna work out when they see that and new players stop joining?

  The New Player Experience (NPE) is rough and as this is prealpha there are many things the devs could to so new players have a better start.

 There could be some intro quests that actually introduce the new player to the mechanics at the end of which they are granted either a set or giving the resources to make a set of intermediate tools/armor just to get started. It shouldn't hurt anything as long as you make it clear its for the purpose of prealpha and you are giving people a look into how the game should work after one clears the first few days.

 Another option would be to start all prealpha testers with the first section of combat/harvest/exploration filled so they can skip that first few hours/days of not being able to do much to see what the game is like once you have invested the first few days in the game.

 And another option would to be make the current campaign work in a way where the forts actually collect resources for which ever faction has control over them. So once people have their first set of gear they can maintain it through pvp if they so choose.

 And yet another would be to implement a mentor/student system where people who are established can earn something worth the time to introduce new players to the game.

 I get people are tired of hearing the gripe that the game is no fun in the beginning. There are likely many more that do not gripe and do not stick around. If there is no appeal for new players to play why should people who are considering investing in the game spend the money to unlock access? 

The game is not remotely close to even launching. Adding any systems to alleviate the poor starting experience before the game is launched is a waste of time and development resources. Would you rather have a pre alpha with systems that make it fun for new players, or would you rather have a game that's feature complete at launch? 

It's hard for devs to give players "free stuff" to only take it away months later. The devs have said the systems for Crowfall are not balanced around a player who just joined the game, but are instead balanced around a year+ worth of training. Does this mean that new players joining six months down the line are going to be at a disadvantage? Absolutely, but they have also said they want to implement catch up mechanics to counter this. 

If you back the game now it should be because of where the game will hopefully end up, not where it is today. If Crowfall launched today it would be eviscerated for the myriad of issues currently in game. The good news it isn't launching, but for many veteran players it gets old seeing the same complaints about half complete or not even implemented systems. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Darwick said:

I guess my biggest issue with this topic is the sheer number of established players telling Beandip that if doesn't like how the game is structured at the moment then he should flat out find a different game to play. One of the drivers of a game is the community and this one already seems to be getting hostile to new players. How is that gonna work out when they see that and new players stop joining?

Darwick, mind that this is my personal opinion, but beandip has been received the comments he received because he presented his feedback and handled other people comments to his OP poorly. I'm pretty sure if he would have been nicer he would have gotten more support. Mind also that trash-talking to players that have been spent years giving feedback to the devs and have been here since day one was one of the reasons that caused a chain-reaction. It's like if someone you have just met starts trash-talking to one of your friends. What will you do? You would normally join to defend your friend.

The lack of basic understanding on how social behaviour works, and the of some basic understanding of netiquette and a mature way to present arguments is what lead this thread to degenerate. I assure that I have seen hundred of times lot of veteran players helping new players, assisting them and answering their questions and some of these veteran player came from the most hardcore-pvp oriented guilds that would cut off your throat in game but if you ask politely for help will gladly spend time to teach you what you need to know.
Not to mention we (me and you and all the other kittens) do this on a daily basis in our guild.

Edited by Nyamo

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On 7/2/2018 at 9:11 AM, pamintandrei said:

1."Give me a server where i can just kill people"
You mean the abattoir server? That ,from what i saw , at most had 15 people on it?The testing population didn't go over the roof when abattoir servers were up, barely anyone played on them.

Not @ me I know but your answer seems to ignore a huge portion of what I agree with in this thread. ->Ahh you mean the server you have to BRING GEAR  INTO? That means you have to have ALREADY SPENT 40-80 man-hours on resources in another server, crafted, and banked in order to import and "just fight". With how "valuable" Spirit Banking is, you have to see why that's an issue.

I 100% agree a "just play" server would be awesome. Disable spirit banking on it, have "free gear" generated from the start and via the combat itself (better quality gear dropping off of enemies corpses based on lv difference or whatnot) and bam, instant action that's not "teh kraps." It might provide fun AND useful balancing information that currently locked behind a timewall.

Little story: As a total noob first hour of gameplay I joined an abb server cause there's NO EXPLANATION about what it is...and got constantly naked-killed by the few other people online while i was still trying to push over a tree with my hands. It took me talking in allchat wondering WTF kinda manure did I just spend money on to finally (after the manditory ***-talking ***whits spent 5 mins degrading me for asking questions) to finally figure out that i needed to connect to a server with worse ping because it actually had a beachhead and rudimentary NPE. Ya Ya, "current dev state" blah blah->not having a signpost is just lazy development. It takes all of 45 seconds to write a string of text and have it displayed.

Unrelated to above, but related to the topic: Myself and the ENTIRE GROUP OF FRIENDS who all bought/backed the game at the same time have dropped away from the game and testing of it for exactly the same reasons the OP listed. We occasionally remember to login and spend our max-bank skill points in hopes that once we have the skills between the entire group(in a month or so by basic math, if we remember/care by then) We MIGHT find that the investment/return is worth our time. If I'm to believe the bits of info I've gleaned, that means about 10 months of time once it goes gold. That right there is some psychiatrist's wet dream in self-infliction before we even get into the ability to do the actual early-midgame.

On old hats and their blah-blah: just cause yer a white haired ex-marine in a rocking chair on your front porch yelling at the kids to "get off da lawn" doesn't mean your opinion is any more valid. Everyone paid, it's therefore everyone's lawn, and being a hooligan without being helpful is exactly that shotgun-rockingchair mentality that makes people wanna hurry you along to your grave. Maybe the VETERAN PLAYERS should try BEING PRODUCTIVE with comments like we talked about this part in "linked thread which was buried in locked subforums away from general view" instead of being elitist knobgobblers.

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7 hours ago, Darwick said:

  I guess my biggest issue with this topic is the sheer number of established players telling Beandip that if doesn't like how the game is structured at the moment then he should flat out find a different game to play. One of the drivers of a game is the community and this one already seems to be getting hostile to new players. How is that gonna work out when they see that and new players stop joining?

  The New Player Experience (NPE) is rough and as this is prealpha there are many things the devs could to so new players have a better start.

 There could be some intro quests that actually introduce the new player to the mechanics at the end of which they are granted either a set or giving the resources to make a set of intermediate tools/armor just to get started. It shouldn't hurt anything as long as you make it clear its for the purpose of prealpha and you are giving people a look into how the game should work after one clears the first few days.

 Another option would be to start all prealpha testers with the first section of combat/harvest/exploration filled so they can skip that first few hours/days of not being able to do much to see what the game is like once you have invested the first few days in the game.

 And another option would to be make the current campaign work in a way where the forts actually collect resources for which ever faction has control over them. So once people have their first set of gear they can maintain it through pvp if they so choose.

 And yet another would be to implement a mentor/student system where people who are established can earn something worth the time to introduce new players to the game.

 I get people are tired of hearing the gripe that the game is no fun in the beginning. There are likely many more that do not gripe and do not stick around. If there is no appeal for new players to play why should people who are considering investing in the game spend the money to unlock access? 

The only problem I see with said complainers is they just come on the fourms to vent and complain and have no suggestions on how to make the game better all they do is say " I hate the game " or " if anyone does not like what I have to say they can go kill themselves" People who are angry with something are usually told " Well don't do that thing if you dislike it so much" common sence dictates if you do not structure your suggestions as such and people view it as just complaining then your usually going to be told if you hate it so much then do not do it. Maybe the people who are looking to complain need to formulate their complaint better ?

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18 minutes ago, Malignus said:

Unrelated to above, but related to the topic: Myself and the ENTIRE GROUP OF FRIENDS who all bought/backed the game at the same time have dropped away from the game and testing of it for exactly the same reasons the OP listed. We occasionally remember to login and spend our max-bank skill points in hopes that once we have the skills between the entire group(in a month or so by basic math, if we remember/care by then) We MIGHT find that the investment/return is worth our time. If I'm to believe the bits of info I've gleaned, that means about 10 months of time once it goes gold. That right there is some psychiatrist's wet dream in self-infliction before we even get into the ability to do the actual early-midgame.

To me seems you just haven't made enough research before buying a product and now you complain because you don't like it.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Malignus said:

On old hats and their blah-blah: just cause yer a white haired ex-marine in a rocking chair on your front porch yelling at the kids to "get off da lawn" doesn't mean your opinion is any more valid. Everyone paid, it's therefore everyone's lawn, and being a hooligan without being helpful is exactly that shotgun-rockingchair mentality that makes people wanna hurry you along to your grave. Maybe the VETERAN PLAYERS should try BEING PRODUCTIVE with comments like we talked about this part in "linked thread which was buried in locked subforums away from general view" instead of being elitist knobgobblers.

See? This is another proof you haven't made enough research. Just because everyone paid doesn't mean everyone opinion is weighted in the same way because some people paid way more. You are forgetting first of all this game was made possible by kickstarter backers and you are also forgetting some of the payers are actually ACE investors. For me, I am thankful to them because without the monetary support these players gave to the devs we probably wouldn't even have what we have now. Mind that I am not trying to defend them I am simply trying to point out to you that you could have done more research before buying something and then go complaining. You are blaming others because you think they are not being productive but your lack of research weakens the validity of your comment.

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2 hours ago, Malignus said:

Not @ me I know but your answer seems to ignore a huge portion of what I agree with in this thread. ->Ahh you mean the server you have to BRING GEAR  INTO? That means you have to have ALREADY SPENT 40-80 man-hours on resources in another server, crafted, and banked in order to import and "just fight". With how "valuable" Spirit Banking is, you have to see why that's an issue. If you are spending 40 hours to make a set of gear you are doing it wrong. Spirit banking at this point in the game is not valuable at all. Very few people get to their export cap once they understand how the mechanic works. 

I 100% agree a "just play" server would be awesome. Disable spirit banking on it, have "free gear" generated from the start and via the combat itself (better quality gear dropping off of enemies corpses based on lv difference or whatnot) and bam, instant action that's not "teh kraps." It might provide fun AND useful balancing information that currently locked behind a timewall. Game balance is not going to happen for at least 6-8 months outside of anything that is brokenly op. The game isn't in that phase of development., and currently Crowfall is all about building the integral systems in the game  A free gear server does nothing to progress what the game is currently TESTING.

It's obvious the skill system negatively effects new players until a wipe occurs, but the game is in alpha. If Crowfall was a AAA funded MMO you wouldn't even be able to log into it at this phase of development. You would be arguing on a forum about tiny tidbits of information released during E3, Gamescon, etc. 

Little story: As a total noob first hour of gameplay I joined an abb server cause there's NO EXPLANATION about what it is...and got constantly naked-killed by the few other people online while i was still trying to push over a tree with my hands. It took me talking in allchat wondering WTF kinda manure did I just spend money on to finally (after the manditory ***-talking ***whits spent 5 mins degrading me for asking questions) to finally figure out that i needed to connect to a server with worse ping because it actually had a beachhead and rudimentary NPE. Ya Ya, "current dev state" blah blah->not having a signpost is just lazy development. It takes all of 45 seconds to write a string of text and have it displayed. The NPE is rough, join a guild and talk with other people if you want to know whats going on. There are a multitude of guilds looking for players that don't mind helping those that are new learn the ropes. When you complain however, it doesn't make them want to help you. 

Unrelated to above, but related to the topic: Myself and the ENTIRE GROUP OF FRIENDS who all bought/backed the game at the same time have dropped away from the game and testing of it for exactly the same reasons the OP listed. We occasionally remember to login and spend our max-bank skill points in hopes that once we have the skills between the entire group(in a month or so by basic math, if we remember/care by then) We MIGHT find that the investment/return is worth our time. If I'm to believe the bits of info I've gleaned, that means about 10 months of time once it goes gold. That right there is some psychiatrist's wet dream in self-infliction before we even get into the ability to do the actual early-midgame. The first campaign when the game goes live will be a bunch of people running around in intermediates. The systems are designed to have a multitude of years built into, where players specialize in certain roles whether it be specific crafting skills, harvesting abilities, or combat. To get a system like this you have to have a slow start where players begin to differentiate themselves from each other. 

 
On old hats and their blah-blah: just cause yer a white haired ex-marine in a rocking chair on your front porch yelling at the kids to "get off da lawn" doesn't mean your opinion is any more valid. Everyone paid, it's therefore everyone's lawn, and being a hooligan without being helpful is exactly that shotgun-rockingchair mentality that makes people wanna hurry you along to your grave. Maybe the VETERAN PLAYERS should try BEING PRODUCTIVE with comments like we talked about this part in "linked thread which was buried in locked subforums away from general view" instead of being elitist knobgobblers. Just because you paid money doesn't make what you (or I) have to say relevant. The real issue is that you don't like the intended systems in the game. That's a valid opinion to have, but if you don't like the intended systems why did you buy this game? I think it really comes down to you not liking a prealpha game, and again that's a valid way to see the game. However, this is what game development looks like. MMOs generally take 5ish years to create, and Crowfall is on year three. I know for myself I couldn't stomach the gameplay experience until 5.4. If I were you I would check back in 5.8 and see how the game has progressed. 

 

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11 hours ago, Malignus said:

Not @ me I know but your answer seems to ignore a huge portion of what I agree with in this thread. ->Ahh you mean the server you have to BRING GEAR  INTO? That means you have to have ALREADY SPENT 40-80 man-hours on resources in another server, crafted, and banked in order to import and "just fight". With how "valuable" Spirit Banking is, you have to see why that's an issue.
 

If it takes you 40 hours to get your armor ready then you are clearly doing something wrong.And if it took for everyone 40-80 hours to get the armor done,that's still optional.You can fight with a basic weapon and no armor (I'm not saying you have a chance of winning).Your argument is like me going into wow and telling them that they should have a server where everyone starts at 110 and has the best armor in the game,it kinda defeats the whole point of having the rest of the game expect really high end raids and pvp.

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2 hours ago, Malignus said:

How long since you did it with day1 skills? Better yet, since you let your nephiew/neice/whatever use your account and without being their personal shoulder-parrot watched them try to figure it out and get their FIRST set of gear? Your current skill build will totally change the way you do start-up crafting and experience. Your existing bank completely alters your ability to boot-strap. Your words are thus invalid and elitist. Step back and either actually think from a NPE perspective before you start with "if yer spending 40 to make year yer doing it wrong" No poorly made socks, I was a total newb with zero points in any tree trying to find out which peice of poor knotwood does what

its almost like you could have asked current testers how to go about building that first set of gear....huh.

2 hours ago, Malignus said:

The resource-gathering model is quite-obviously tested-to-death and is curently only serving as a time-wall towards identifying issues that will quite obviously become emergent as they already are becoming emergent

except the point of these most recent tests is to see how the economy shapes up from a gathering/crafting/economy game loop. But nice man, keep yelling at people.

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On 29.6.2018 at 4:14 AM, DocHollidaze said:

Making it easier for people to play Crowfall solo will not make it "better".

There should be a time for solo and a time for group play. Not everyone can/wants to dedicate whole evenings to a game. Even after work most of us have things to do. Sometimes it just takes seconds, sometimes it takes an hour or the rest of the evening. A lot of that has to be done, but it is on a free schedule.

In Black Desert Online (BDO) you can PvP all the time. It doesn´t matter if you miss a fight. There will be a lot more during the evening. If you have to go afk, you can always start to process something, which is almost as good as actually playing that game.

In Crowfall you can play actively or... log off, because being online while cooking, eating or doing other stuff just depletes your hunger meter. Because the ratio between gathering, crafting and PvP is so far off, it would be nice if the PvP could be on a set schedule. BRB, my cat just found the mouse behind a cupboard he lost interest in yesterday... Hope you get my point now. ^^ 

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1 hour ago, DoomYa said:

There should be a time for solo and a time for group play. Not everyone can/wants to dedicate whole evenings to a game. Even after work most of us have things to do. Sometimes it just takes seconds, sometimes it takes an hour or the rest of the evening. A lot of that has to be done, but it is on a free schedule.

but this game isnt being developed for the solo player, like almost every other MMO. Its being designed FOR guilds and hardcore players. Does that mean there shouldn't be places for solo play? No...but that's what the outer bands will be for. Do what you like while playing in the outer bands, you're still skill training while offline and if you're afk you can still have factory runs going. 

Solo play shouldn't and never will be the focus of the game. And we wont see more "solo-friendly" mechanics until later in testing

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A lot of the discussion in this thread is why I try to focus so heavily on explaining to people what pre-alpha means.

A LOT of the issues people are talking about aren't issues with the game - they are issues with the existence of time.

There is a reason why things like starter zones aren't in the game in pre-alpha test stages - they are useless in pre-alpha test stages.

To be clear, pre-alpha is the period in game development where basic features of the game have not yet been built, let alone added to the game.

If the developers wasted time making a new tutorial zone every time they added a new feature - and we're talking basic features, like "crafting tables" and "armor types," then they would spend 3x as much time building new tutorial sections for every new feature as they spend building new features. All that would do is slow down development.

As I am constantly saying, the point isn't "if you aren't having fun, find another game." I have literally never said that about Crowfall.

What I have said, and what I will continue to say, is the same as in my signature, which has not changed in over a year: We are in pre-alpha. If you don't like it,

COME.

BACK.

LATER.

When we are no longer in pre-alpha. When the features you are upset by the lack of have been coded and added.

When the bugs and stability issues you are lamenting have been identified and fixed.

This poorly made socks all takes money and man-hours; it doesn't just happen magically, and pre-alpha isn't even the phase of game development where most of it happens in the first place.

BE PATIENT.

And for the love of all that is holy, if you're going to back a game that isn't out yet, do a little bit of research and save yourself some pain. Nobody - NOBODY - has bought this game yet. We backed it. We invested in its future. The game isn't out yet. It is not yet for sale. You cannot buy it, online or in stores.

I cannot stress the difference enough. You have not purchased a product, nor was that what you agreed to when you handed over your money, and ACE has been absolutely crystal-clear about that, both legally and ethically.

When I see complaints based on the idea that someone thought they had "purchased" a "game," it is all I can do not to reach through my monitor, grab them by the shoulders, and shake them until they understand the difference. If you clicked through all of the pages where ACE meticulously detailed what you were and were not paying for and when you would get it, but still came out the other end expecting a fully functional, finished product, downloadable as soon as your payment cleared, I don't know how to politely inform you of the reality, and there is a point at which I will cease to try.

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6 hours ago, goose said:

A lot of the discussion in this thread is why I try to focus so heavily on explaining to people what pre-alpha means.

A LOT of the issues people are talking about aren't issues with the game - they are issues with the existence of time.

There is a reason why things like starter zones aren't in the game in pre-alpha test stages - they are useless in pre-alpha test stages.

To be clear, pre-alpha is the period in game development where basic features of the game have not yet been built, let alone added to the game.

If the developers wasted time making a new tutorial zone every time they added a new feature - and we're talking basic features, like "crafting tables" and "armor types," then they would spend 3x as much time building new tutorial sections for every new feature as they spend building new features. All that would do is slow down development.

As I am constantly saying, the point isn't "if you aren't having fun, find another game." I have literally never said that about Crowfall.

What I have said, and what I will continue to say, is the same as in my signature, which has not changed in over a year: We are in pre-alpha. If you don't like it,

COME.

BACK.

LATER.

When we are no longer in pre-alpha. When the features you are upset by the lack of have been coded and added.

When the bugs and stability issues you are lamenting have been identified and fixed.

This poorly made socks all takes money and man-hours; it doesn't just happen magically, and pre-alpha isn't even the phase of game development where most of it happens in the first place.

BE PATIENT.

And for the love of all that is holy, if you're going to back a game that isn't out yet, do a little bit of research and save yourself some pain. Nobody - NOBODY - has bought this game yet. We backed it. We invested in its future. The game isn't out yet. It is not yet for sale. You cannot buy it, online or in stores.

I cannot stress the difference enough. You have not purchased a product, nor was that what you agreed to when you handed over your money, and ACE has been absolutely crystal-clear about that, both legally and ethically.

When I see complaints based on the idea that someone thought they had "purchased" a "game," it is all I can do not to reach through my monitor, grab them by the shoulders, and shake them until they understand the difference. If you clicked through all of the pages where ACE meticulously detailed what you were and were not paying for and when you would get it, but still came out the other end expecting a fully functional, finished product, downloadable as soon as your payment cleared, I don't know how to politely inform you of the reality, and there is a point at which I will cease to try.

I haven't been on the forums in a long time but I read this entire thread.

Good to see you make excellent points as always sir.

I've been doing exactly what you've been describing simply cause the game isn't worth my time until there's more in it. I've got other games to keep my attention while I am waiting. :)

I suggest others do the same if they're in a similar situation of finding Crowfall boring or there isn't the things you want to do in the game in it yet. After all, your source of entertainment is your own personal responsibility.

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On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 10:45 PM, ShadowwBoi13 said:

The reason it feels like the game revolves around harvesting is because, harvesters spend their time harvesting and banking full stacks (or for people who dont understand imports/exports, banking non full stacks).

I feel like this was directed at me and my 1 green marble :)

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On 6.7.2018 at 1:50 AM, Jjusticar said:

but this game isnt being developed for the solo player, like almost every other MMO. Its being designed FOR guilds and hardcore players.

I'm not so sure if they know the characteristics of their targeted audience. This game is really slow paced and all that preparation needs far more patience than most younger people have. So it´s not really for the young ones. But most older people have to fulfill obligations of a family life. It's pre alpha - they will find a balance. :-)

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"pre alpha"  "pre alpha"   "pre alpha" Blah Blah if they actually want people to stick around and test their game for them they should make everything take 1 ore or 1 wood like they did with the Ruins or w.e they are called. Not many people who wanna harvest for hours to "test" something.

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3 minutes ago, wor said:

"pre alpha"  "pre alpha"   "pre alpha" Blah Blah if they actually want people to stick around and test their game for them they should make everything take 1 ore or 1 wood like they did with the Ruins or w.e they are called. Not many people who wanna harvest for hours to "test" something.

There are vendors on TEST with unlimited free resources. They are in the forts and keep.

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4 minutes ago, Jah said:

There are vendors on TEST with unlimited free resources. They are in the forts and keep.

Sounds like something that should have been in long ago but thats a good start i guess.

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mostly looking to see if the game pushes to more of a mining sim , or more towards pvps

hoping that it goes towards pvp.

overall i think the game is fun in certain areas, has addictive components but it also has high deterrents i.e. inventory loss, durability reduction, long walking towards corpse, long gathering and crafting times for temporary equipment. all these things make me want to run away, and not pvp.

things that would help that may help

 

crow  death speed > i believe this is already being corrected

maybe to a 40% inventory loss? maybe make a new rune for miner spec to reduce it ?

increase weapon and armor durability ?

 

not saying that these components should be removed, just saying they should be mitigated.  long term hopes i believe factories will help this out when game comes out, but... we'll see.

 

i get the game is pre alpha, but i would like to see the testing base increase, i like the idea of test servers where things only take 1 ore to make

i want to increase player interaction.  i.e pre appha rune recipes ^  short term hopes

medium term hopes- WAY more ways to kill people with the environment.. like.. i can't kill a cleric as a knight? THATS GARBAGE , ill hook you stun you and knock your ass into a pit of acid.

super long term hopes - epic pvp battles group objectives, competitive gaming, addicting game loop  . smooooooooth combat.

 

IT is of my personal opinion that mining should be secondary to objectives and pvp, but thats just me.

(having people guard while gathering sounds like boring gameplay ^_^)

As it is a testing phase... maybe test out a small map of capture the flag? Rare resource reward for winning, common resource for losing. 1 ore to make new gear. that would be some fun .

King of the hill? rare resource for winning/holding while inside it?, also higher tier resources at the hill, low resource cost to make gear, also sounds like fun?

incorporate that 40% inventory loss ... so time spent gathering at hill doesnt' seem wasted .. yet still killing someone gives rewards.... low equipiment durabilty loss... so i dont' feel like my time at hill is wasted on deaths?

Lets make the game fun while we test it, <<<<<

 

the more people that play

more ideas we can get

better the game will be for the future.

i think some of these ideas in this forum would be healthy addition to the game until more patches come out. possibly also reduce crafting timer for this server if possible and do a smaller map

 

Edited by beandip

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