beandip

game mechanics leans too far on gathering

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9 hours ago, mist said:

This is my plan for trying this game.

Well the trees cap at 30 days of x1 soooo, have fun with that. 

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Posted (edited)

After a weekend of farming and crafting I was able to build over 6 suits of leather breast plates for my guild with the new NPC vendors in the keeps and tier 9 gold drops.  I admit there was probably about 4 hours of "farming" to do that. I spent more time roaming around with my mates and looking for or participating in fights, and less time scrabbling around feeling like I was fighting the game more than people.

I could easily have geared up a vessel to at least one white item of each kind if training was a bit further along. Decay doesn't seem over board, even though I was hunting critters and was in combat more than say an ore harvester.

Getting my hands on enough green+ resources to build things, yup that's going to take some time. (Got a few blue and a couple of purple though).

I think I like the current balance.  All I would like to see at this point is for them to move the effect that NPC vendors have into some group PvP/escort/objective activity instead.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I felt most tasks were tedious related to crafting. So I`m glad that they went back to the old Shadowbane concept related to how to gear up your character to get ready for combat and PvP. Vorgrim armor dropped in the world in SB, because it generated PvP hot spots which is fun. And gathering & crafting will still be a major topic in CF - also related to castles and other fortifications in a campaign world. 

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On 8/13/2018 at 8:48 PM, mandalore said:

Well the trees cap at 30 days of x1 soooo, have fun with that. 

??? What?

I'm not cluing into your sarcasm, can you elaborate?

Do you mean that after 30 days, I no longer accumulate points? Or that a tree can be max trained at 30 days?

Sooooo then login once a week to spend accumulated points on skills.....damn that was hard to figure out.

Still not too sure what you're getting at. If I am missing some game mechanic or not understanding some game mechanic, educate me.

But from my understanding you are just trolling me because I wasn't concise in the frequency of logging in to passive train. If that's the case, it's a really sad effort and you need to level up your Forum Trolling Skill - maybe wait 30 days and spend the points on the Troll Mastery skill.  

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2 hours ago, mist said:

??? What?

I'm not cluing into your sarcasm, can you elaborate?

Do you mean that after 30 days, I no longer accumulate points? Or that a tree can be max trained at 30 days?

Sooooo then login once a week to spend accumulated points on skills.....damn that was hard to figure out.

Still not too sure what you're getting at. If I am missing some game mechanic or not understanding some game mechanic, educate me.

But from my understanding you are just trolling me because I wasn't concise in the frequency of logging in to passive train. If that's the case, it's a really sad effort and you need to level up your Forum Trolling Skill - maybe wait 30 days and spend the points on the Troll Mastery skill.  

Personal attacks are a violation of the terms of service.  You shouldn’t accuse people of things then flame them.  

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Posted (edited)
On 29.6.2018 at 7:46 AM, APE said:

I was drawn in with the initial "play to crush" slogan. Had hoped for a more PVP focused game, whatever that might look like, but seems a great deal of game play or content will be about what some call "strategy."

For those that simply want to PVP (this should be an option in a PVP game right?), seems we can:

1. Guard the sheep and hope a similar or smaller force chooses to attack us so we have an actual fight. Which seems unlikely and larger forces running down smaller being a more common occurrence.

3. Wait for specific timed events to siege and do larger scale activities (if Unity even can). First the engine/tech needs to be able to handle it but second, how often will these events take place? Once a day/week/month?

4. Fight over POIs. Good option hopefully.

5. Roam around looking for fights. Again like defending harvesters, likely to seek out enemies that are at a disadvantage which to me removes much of the risk and challenge.

If gear continues to be a heavy cost, running away will likely be a smart "strategy" which is kind of sad for a game that started with P2C.

PVPers are basically at the mercy of guild mates that choose to spend hours and hours banging on rocks and staring at crafting UIs to supply them gear. In turn they can guard them or defend them and their resources. 

While doing harvesting and or crafting on the side is an option, seems to go against the concept of playing how we each want. Why have general training paths focused on combat for example if it doesn't really pay off as much as having a useful trade does? Be it for the individual or their group. Assuming training Combat stays within what devs have called a "super shallow power curve."

As someone with limited play time, gaming requiring 10s of hours a week to stay competitive or even at the entry level is not something I'm willing/able to do anymore. Even if it was possible, most of that time spent grinding and not doing what I enjoy wouldn't be where I start. Grinding for the sake of grinding is something I had hoped wouldn't be the driving force of this game.

That initial "manifesto" statement really got me. :rolleyes:

 

Yes I am really disappointed with the lack of play to crush concepts and how a game should be easy to access for new players as well, because small scale pvp should be as important as large scale combat since most will do small scale pvp and guild activities, and less 200 vs 200 battles and large sieges in any given campaign faction or Dregs settings.

And too much in game content rely on harvesting & crafting to access more advance items to get a PvP advantage for their PvP templates in any guilds. They need to look on what Shadowbane brought to the table, and I remember how many guilds left the game in 2003 due to the fact that their castle cost resources to build and was destroyed in a siege which was a bane in that old game. And players lost cities on 4th July, because it was US national day. In my earlier days mid 20`s I could care less if players rage quit the game due to heavy pvp losses, and most were clueless how to build a good pvp template in old SB in the beginning. And guilds sometimes lost wars on a certain servers like Mourning in Shadowbane which sometimes resulted that whole guilds quit the game, but now I`m like 42 years old and I know that if similar concepts like a bane or siege it`s important to get the core concepts right and that should always be PVP focus content and easy to access for new players

My brief point: The core in-game mechanics and concepts should never be based around harvesting and crafting!!! If so this game will never be successful in 2019 for an mmo which suppose to focus on character depth and PvP templates both small and large scale PvP with end game items and skills - which is very hard to test properly, because it take years to train passive skills. So I`ve a notion we will get another Shadowbane type of game launch and it was not very successful at the time in 2003, because end game was never really tested properly before the main launch of the game and poorly balanced!  

Conclusion: So how to solve this is less durabilty hits on items on death and in combat, and food should not be too tedious like it`s right now, and it need to be random armor drop and weapon drops on monsters so those who focus to train passive combat skills, which is not harvesting or crafting can have access to similar item (power) to those who rely on a guild blacksmith, jewel crafting for instant. The whole passive skill trees need to be faster so those who actually play the game feels he/she get rewarded to be active in Crowfall.

I have played EvE online in late 90`s custard that game - and the whole passive non sense, speed it up!! 

And World of Warcraft from 2004 don`t even mention it, because I was busy playing Shadowbane! We need to focus on open world sandbox elements and combat scenarios that include PvP and castle sieges, and that means advance item drops like Vorgrim drops we had in Shadowbane, and less focus on durability hits on items due to pvp which is suppose to be fun! All guilds in this game and I know most of the old guilds - they focus on pvp which is fun. And why item drops on monster - it helps a lot of players who play this game differently and lone wolfs who are not always connected to a large guild or a big alliance, especially in the Dreg world setting which is guild focused campaigns, and most old SB guilds will join the Dregs and not faction setting. 

Edited by mythx

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Posted (edited)
On 29.6.2018 at 10:40 PM, beandip said:

This , this facet of the game, is what i'm trying to adress and urge the devs to move away from this optimal strategy which is so apparent.

Yes it`s the opposite of what a game should be easy accessible so a player feel he/she achieve something in the game. (1-3 %) activity with the current player population who bought Crowfall is a strong message to do something about the core concepts which is PvP, and should not be hours of harvesting to get access to more advance items. Bring back Vorgrim armor and elite weapon drops for those who mainly focus on custard Combat skill tree and PVP which this game should be all about in an open world sandbox pvp with consequencs! 

In late Shadowbane era you had end game content within 48 hours pvp template! ^_^

In CF it takes years with the current passive skill system! :wacko:

Personally I would be sad if end up with a game which is not a new player friendly approach - new players are important in a tactical war game like CF. I have said it all the time and mention it also in my late SB days in 2009 before they closed the official SB servers. If only the game was fun for new players, and that mean less grind - easy access to more advance items so all can play on similar power level on items. 

We will still see huge differences among players in PvP with exact same gear due to player pvp skills and experience.  

Edited by mythx

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mythx said:

new players are important 

So far I don't see anything that will draw in new players or sustain more casual ones.

Almost everything seems geared to making it less accessible to these groups.

If you can't quickly join a guild, devote X amount of time/money or have friends handing you everything, good luck... Which isn't exactly bad, but how small is too small when it comes to the whole "niche" defense of pretty much any issue brought up.

Even if they pulled off larger scale combat, combat itself was more entertaining/challenging, and character building was more complex, not sure CF will do it for me. 

If I could only pop in a couple hours here and there, not sure I'd provide any value to others or enjoy it myself.

Beyond the heavy focus on non-combat features, I'm concerned about the cash shops influence on the game which pretty much is ignored. With VIP being a trade item, cash was always going to influence things, but the KS FAQ said they at least wouldn't sell anything that would affect the balance of the game. Don't believe they've followed through with that claim.

Somewhat on topic, I found this thread about EVE which I believe mirrors concerns/responses found about CF as well.

https://forums.eveonline.com/t/too-hard-to-have-any-fun-as-a-solo-new-player/28502

Despite some superficial similarities, EVE as a game and the circumstances behind it's past and present are very different from CF. I believe many of things that helped it find traction and grow over the years to eventually just sustaining on a core population, don't/won't apply to CF.

ACE likely took a good dose of inspiration from EVE along with SB, SWG, UO and others, but trying to transplant those features into a modern game without really compensating for the change in the market, gamers, society won't work out as well.

Lots could change before launch, but wouldn't hurt to have a better rough draft of what ACE has planned for certain (many) areas of the game.

Edited by APE

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It's not a game yet.

It's a product in development.

Ace have been clear from the start, it will not be enjoyable, it will be rough and not everything in those tests will be of your liking.

If you can't deal with it, wait until the product got more evolved.

If you can't wait, then you have trashed money away stupidly and maybe next time, next product, you will restrain yourself before...or not.

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Posted (edited)

@Gorwald 5.7 have more content than candy crush on your mobile, m8. 

It`s foolish to think otherwise if not instant reward and an active in-game skill tree progression is implemented before it go open beta stage - it will fail  hard, because no one enjoy Time Wall cookies on their passive skill tree to unlock new in-game content or feel in-game progression. Harvesting & Crafting like most mmo`s should be an after thought - the main core game play is actually PvP, and when it start to be a strategy to avoid pvp due to resource cost on items and amount of hours harvesting rare maths it`s beyond repair at that point hence the low activity on this forum and in-game. 

Edited by mythx

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17 hours ago, mythx said:

@Gorwald 5.7 have more content than candy crush on your mobile, m8. 

It`s foolish to think otherwise if not instant reward and an active in-game skill tree progression is implemented before it go open beta stage - it will fail  hard, because no one enjoy Time Wall cookies on their passive skill tree to unlock new in-game content or feel in-game progression. Harvesting & Crafting like most mmo`s should be an after thought - the main core game play is actually PvP, and when it start to be a strategy to avoid pvp due to resource cost on items and amount of hours harvesting rare maths it`s beyond repair at that point hence the low activity on this forum and in-game. 

Low activity on forums and in game have nothing to do with passive skill trees or harvesting/crafting.

Not everyone is willing to test a game with bugs/crash and halfway features ready, we don't even have guilds system in yet and i know a lot of players are waiting for it to become really "active" on testing.

+ it's summer vacations for a lot of people

Did the tests actually are turned for harvesting/crafting more than pvp? Sure ! Because they need to see if the system is robust/good enough for the game they want and we don't have even all the full crafting loop in, we are only on phase 1 (thralls, mass productions are still in work)

I'm pretty sure mass production/thralls will alienate all the problems about getting stuffed and such since you will be able to buy the stuff instead of going farming yourself.

And so people who would like more to focus on PvP will be able to do it.

I've never focused on anything else in Shadowbane than pvp when others created a full city of merchants.

Early tests was all about PvP combat (HD/SP) and it was fun, but now is the time to build the others systems too.

I'm not a crafter/harvester i don't enjoy those kind of gameplay and so personally i don't test anymore the game yet, except login sometimes to see changes like 5.7 and i'm pretty sure a lot of others backers are doing the same.

But as Todd already stated in precedent news, better step aside until we have something in we want to participate to, instead of being bored and leave for good.

They are still working on it and when we will hit Alpha/beta i'm pretty sure the discussions will turn around to anything else that all about "is this a crafting game or a pvp game?"

They know what they are doing, they have a plan and a clear roadmap

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I agree with everyone who keeps trying to tell the 'moar pvp!' folks complaining that this is not a game, it is a test environment. I understand this message doesn't seem to be getting through so let me try this another way.

There isn't a single full pvp gameloop implemented in the current environment (5.7). Sure there are capturable keeps, forts, camps, etc. and it affects the faction slider to one extent or another but even 'winning' a campaign does nothing for those within the faction so that gameloop isn't complete either.

It's been said many times before and I'll say it as well...If you don't like testing the current features then logoff and wait for features you do like.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/16/2018 at 8:20 AM, Gorwald said:

It's not a game yet.

It's a product in development.

Ace have been clear from the start, it will not be enjoyable, it will be rough and not everything in those tests will be of your liking.

If you can't deal with it, wait until the product got more evolved.

If you can't wait, then you have trashed money away stupidly and maybe next time, next product, you will restrain yourself before...or not.

this is where you're wrong. the core facet of the game can change with simple parameters. sandbox games can be VERY enjoyable. i think ace is being incredibly stubborn with their rigid format.

i don't need a complete game,  i just need one single game loop that ENCOURAGES player interaction. make it basic, make it fun. easy day.

 

" I'm pretty sure mass production/thralls will alienate all the problems about getting stuffed and such since you will be able to buy the stuff instead of going farming yourself."

yo bro? how long will it take my passive skill tree to get that? half a year? wake up dude.

i refuse to waste my time farming knot wood and crap resources when i know that 5 months down the line with a full exploration tree that i can do that work in 1 hour vice 5 days.(exaggerated but not really)

THE GAME HAS TO WORK DAY ONE . it will flop so hard..  if you make people  wait.

a lot of really good posts. hitting nails hard.

 

 

Edited by beandip

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, beandip said:

i refuse to waste my time farming knot wood and crap resources when i know that 5 months down the line with a full exploration tree that i can do that work in 1 hour vice 5 days.(exaggerated but not really)

 

Obviously someone isn't playing the current 5.7 version, or at least not playing it effectively.

With just a couple hours two nights this week of SOLO critter hunting, with zero training on default vessel, in the fall season, with intermediate gear you can put together in an hour, I pulled in enough gold to buy over 1k worth of white mats for building gear.  That's more than enough for a full outfit, that will last me up to three weekends of PvP. 

If you want to get resource for high quality items, then of course you have to be an older crow, but to say it's "wasting time" to put in a couple of hours of critter killing to outfit yourself in gear for a month, is just being disingenuous.

The reset was last week, and the harvesting in fall requires training. So this is day one levels of getting stuff, and finally after several months of complaining about it, it seems right.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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20 hours ago, beandip said:

i don't need a complete game,  i just need one single game loop that ENCOURAGES player interaction. make it basic, make it fun. easy day

This!

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20 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Obviously someone isn't playing the current 5.7 version, or at least not playing it effectively.

With just a couple hours two nights this week of SOLO critter hunting, with zero training on default vessel, in the fall season, with intermediate gear you can put together in an hour, I pulled in enough gold to buy over 1k worth of white mats for building gear.  That's more than enough for a full outfit, that will last me up to three weekends of PvP. 

If you want to get resource for high quality items, then of course you have to be an older crow, but to say it's "wasting time" to put in a couple of hours of critter killing to outfit yourself in gear for a month, is just being disingenuous.

The reset was last week, and the harvesting in fall requires training. So this is day one levels of getting stuff, and finally after several months of complaining about it, it seems right.

I did it and stopped logging in after that because there is nothing to do with that gear. We really need at least one game cycle. May it be some social stuff (guilds) or something for PvP. So far the passive skill system (I hate it) is the only thing bringing me back on a daily base.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Obviously someone isn't playing the current 5.7 version, or at least not playing it effectively.

With just a couple hours two nights this week of SOLO critter hunting, with zero training on default vessel, in the fall season, with intermediate gear you can put together in an hour, I pulled in enough gold to buy over 1k worth of white mats for building gear.  That's more than enough for a full outfit, that will last me up to three weekends of PvP. 

If you want to get resource for high quality items, then of course you have to be an older crow, but to say it's "wasting time" to put in a couple of hours of critter killing to outfit yourself in gear for a month, is just being disingenuous.

The reset was last week, and the harvesting in fall requires training. So this is day one levels of getting stuff, and finally after several months of complaining about it, it seems right.

your right, im not playing the current version at all. cause it has the same mechanics as 5.6. ace can keep adding new content, but if the core mechanics don't change might as well "insert kill yourself idiom here'.... albeit they did improve the durability feature (a little) and other various game ui improvements (graphics which i don't care about)

for example.  Arenas in WoW. stupid simple. extremely fun and competitive with simple player interaction, the game could have taken out all content BUT that and it would have STILL been a fun game.

(and no, i don't  want another wow game. i want crowfall to exceed my expectations, which by the way are high)

but have you ever seen southparks episode where they farm boars to level 100 ? yea. lol im not doing that.

 a fun game > remove grinding to a minimum (remove time wasters) our time is valuable> increase interaction of players> raise level of competitiveness and strategy> // various game improvements over time after successful game loop established.

 

my favorite quote

Myth

" no one enjoy Time Wall cookies on their passive skill tree to unlock new in-game content or feel in-game progression. Harvesting & Crafting like most mmo`s should be an after thought - the main core game play is actually PvP, and when it start to be a strategy to avoid pvp due to resource cost on items and amount of hours harvesting rare maths it`s beyond repair at that point hence the low activity on this forum and in-game. "

 

 

Edited by beandip

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Posted (edited)
On 8/18/2018 at 9:48 AM, beandip said:

Myth

" no one enjoy Time Wall cookies on their passive skill tree to unlock new in-game content or feel in-game progression. Harvesting & Crafting like most mmo`s should be an after thought - the main core game play is actually PvP, and when it start to be a strategy to avoid pvp due to resource cost on items and amount of hours harvesting rare maths it`s beyond repair at that point hence the low activity on this forum and in-game. "

Except that’s not the game they are building and they’ve been extremely upfront that it’s not the game they are building.  They are building a game were conquest isn’t just pvp but can be political, subversive, economic and or through pvp.  This idea that it’s just a pvp game is a lie you’ve told yourself.  

 

Stop making me white knight for the damn dev team.  The absurdity you spew forces me, a god damn troll, to defend the team.  

Edited by mandalore

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Posted (edited)
On 8/19/2018 at 12:26 PM, mandalore said:

Except that’s not the game they are building and they’ve been extremely upfront that it’s not the game they are building.  They are building a game were conquest isn’t just pvp but can be political, subversive, economic and or through pvp.  This idea that it’s just a pvp game is a lie you’ve told yourself.  

 

Stop making me white knight for the damn dev team.  The absurdity you spew forces me, a god damn troll, to defend the team.  

i could go for this and i think this could set crowfall apart from the generic mmo. i think it would still be beneficial to have an competitive  combat feature even if its a completely separate entity from the main game.

i.e. the best thing about final fantasy 8? it wasn't the rpg ... it was that fancy card game that had limitless strategies...... The game inside the game was better than the game itself..  .the best games in my opinion are the ones that have games inside the games.

 

generally speaking.. i feel like a lot of frustration comes from where backers feel like the game is being pushed toward mining sim and none of the said alternatives.  (actions speak greater than words ^^)

We are patient, but we will complain till we are happy : D i do commend the hard work of developers though, it is apparent. <3

Edited by beandip

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