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beandip

game mechanics leans too far on gathering

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10 minutes ago, ShadowwBoi13 said:

 

The reason it feels like the game revolves around harvesting is because, harvesters spend their time harvesting and banking full stacks (or for people who dont understand imports/exports, banking non full stacks). Because of this, when harvesters actually get ganked, they rarely have many resources, and if they do have a descent amount they try to run and bank stuff on the fly until they die, which means the PvPers arent getting the massive hauls of free mats they are supposed to gain from ganking unprepared harvesters.

Then if some PvPers protect their harvester, in 90% of cases no one will try and pick because most people only pick on harvesters because they cant really fight back, so the PvPers just sit there waiting for their harvester to harvest because most people are to scared to confront them, meaning they dont get any PvP at that point either.

And the crafters either are also the harvesters, or are just waiting for harvesters to complete harvesting loops to come drop off some mats so that the crafters can start crafting.

***

 

 

exactly

this is the topic i want to talk about. not guilds or whatever

 

shadowwboi brings up interesting subject and bringing up ideas like this is what id like to discuss, ways to improve this "waiting" / pvp deterent  facet of game so we can all have more fun playing crowfall which hopefully the devs will take notice of.

Edited by beandip

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1 hour ago, ShadowwBoi13 said:

This issue could easily be solved by disabling exporting untill the final few days of a campaign and increasing the size of the chests in the beachhead/forts/keep to be somewhat comparable with the spirit banks size (possibly even having larger chests in the forts and an even larger one in the keep *See Lower Portion for continuation of this idea*) so people can actually store their materials.

The reason it feels like the game revolves around harvesting is because, harvesters spend their time harvesting and banking full stacks (or for people who dont understand imports/exports, banking non full stacks). Because of this, when harvesters actually get ganked, they rarely have many resources, and if they do have a descent amount they try to run and bank stuff on the fly until they die, which means the PvPers arent getting the massive hauls of free mats they are supposed to gain from ganking unprepared harvesters.

Then if some PvPers protect their harvester, in 90% of cases no one will try and pick because most people only pick on harvesters because they cant really fight back, so the PvPers just sit there waiting for their harvester to harvest because most people are to scared to confront them, meaning they dont get any PvP at that point either.

And the crafters either are also the harvesters, or are just waiting for harvesters to complete harvesting loops to come drop off some mats so that the crafters can start crafting.

***
Now onto the chest conversation, if they did restrict exports to the end of campaigns, then they should double the size of Crypt and Beach Head Chests (compared to current size), 4x or 6x the size of the inventory for chests in the fort, and making the Keeps storage size be equal to the size of a spirit bank. Then remove the Recovery banks from the beachhead.

This will also solve the problem of making the Structures worth fighting over, because 1) you get more places to store all these mats you keep gathering and 2) if you have all your ore stored in brookhurst and you need some ore but an enemy owns brook, then your group needs to go take over brook so you can get your mats back.

 

...I lost track of where i was going with all this so imma just leave this here as is

 

Definitely, being able to shift crafting to EK's almost immediately right now deters the need to fight over forts or be at risk. Not sure how much the real game will be like this. Some campaigns may allow it, but I'm guessing it will be much less open like it is now.

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1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

Another tenet is the strategy layer that centers around resource control

Where is that? Right now, It's only about how much time you (or your group) are willing to spend hitting nodes.


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6 minutes ago, miraluna said:

Where is that? Right now, It's only about how much time you (or your group) are willing to spend hitting nodes.

Probably where all the other features and game loop concepts that aren't added are at?

Either way, if people wanted to they could attack the other people hitting nodes to deny them resources, eg. resource control. I imagine more sophisticated game mechanics of that vein will come later, such as controlling POI's or destroying resource storage buildings or something. 

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2 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

I imagine more sophisticated game mechanics of that vein will come later, such as controlling POI's or destroying resource storage buildings or something. 

I hope, but I have not heard any plans for that yet. We can only give feedback on what we have to test currently, and what we know is coming. 


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I was drawn in with the initial "play to crush" slogan. Had hoped for a more PVP focused game, whatever that might look like, but seems a great deal of game play or content will be about what some call "strategy."

For those that simply want to PVP (this should be an option in a PVP game right?), seems we can:

1. Guard the sheep and hope a similar or smaller force chooses to attack us so we have an actual fight. Which seems unlikely and larger forces running down smaller being a more common occurrence.

3. Wait for specific timed events to siege and do larger scale activities (if Unity even can). First the engine/tech needs to be able to handle it but second, how often will these events take place? Once a day/week/month?

4. Fight over POIs. Good option hopefully.

5. Roam around looking for fights. Again like defending harvesters, likely to seek out enemies that are at a disadvantage which to me removes much of the risk and challenge.

If gear continues to be a heavy cost, running away will likely be a smart "strategy" which is kind of sad for a game that started with P2C.

PVPers are basically at the mercy of guild mates that choose to spend hours and hours banging on rocks and staring at crafting UIs to supply them gear. In turn they can guard them or defend them and their resources. 

While doing harvesting and or crafting on the side is an option, seems to go against the concept of playing how we each want. Why have general training paths focused on combat for example if it doesn't really pay off as much as having a useful trade does? Be it for the individual or their group. Assuming training Combat stays within what devs have called a "super shallow power curve."

As someone with limited play time, gaming requiring 10s of hours a week to stay competitive or even at the entry level is not something I'm willing/able to do anymore. Even if it was possible, most of that time spent grinding and not doing what I enjoy wouldn't be where I start. Grinding for the sake of grinding is something I had hoped wouldn't be the driving force of this game.

That initial "manifesto" statement really got me. :rolleyes:

Edited by APE

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4 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

Making it easier for people to play Crowfall solo will not make it "better".

Group-focused play is a core tenet of Crowfall's design. Another tenet is the strategy layer that centers around resource control and harvesting.

Your post suggests removing both of those tenets in order to facilitate people to do more PvP, bit the reality is it will just make the game more like ESO where a bunch of people run around disorganized doing there own thing in a world where nothing matters and everything is pretty easy to get.

On the contrary, I actually think it WOULD make the game better, especially considering a large portion of your population will most likely be solo, at least starting off. If that starting solo experience is garbage, I guarantee you that person will turn tail and run and not look backing. I don't know about you, but I'd rather play a game with a health player population. I've talked to death about how harvesting really is a wall to having fun. Hopefully the devs can reduce the tedium. You can have a "hard" and "challenging" experience and not make it a tedious, obnoxious chore at the same time.

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4 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

Making it easier for people to play Crowfall solo will not make it "better".

Group-focused play is a core tenet of Crowfall's design. Another tenet is the strategy layer that centers around resource control and harvesting.

Your post suggests removing both of those tenets in order to facilitate people to do more PvP, bit the reality is it will just make the game more like ESO where a bunch of people run around disorganized doing there own thing in a world where nothing matters and everything is pretty easy to get.

double post.

Edited by Helix

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So the guy who tow trucks his body every time is complaining about PvP gear lasting only two minutes. Meanwhile I've used one set of gear for the entirety of the last campaign.

Then we have people complain that the game isnt fun when we have a fractionally small playerbase and not even close to all the game features. 

Then we have people complaining that they don't want to harvest and not realizing that in the bigger scope when the game isnt in pre-alpha and the player base hopefully isn't tiny, there should be plenty of options to buy mats or gear.

The game is dominated by guilds atm, solo players get pretty shafted, the economy has just begun to form (and is fractionally small of what it will be), and we get people complain about mechanics when they go about them in the least efficient way. And its almost like the primary reason of this phase is to make sure things work.

Gotta love it, though I am in the camo of crafting taking too many resources atm and would like to see white level resources in abundance

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@beandip Honestly, just wait until closer to the game's launch, probably around beta or so, til there's a much higher population testing the game and a wider variety of gamers in these forums. Til then your voice will be just be drowned by those who genuinely don't mind spending hours farming mats in one of their multiple alt accounts, for that sweet 15 min of (usually laggy) pvp at the end of it all. Save a few notable exceptions, most others have either quit or are a lot less active now. A higher pop will definitely bring more opportunities for pvp as well, but these problems you outline now will still persist then and will still scare away potential players. Basically they wanted to make a strong and meaningful gear loop to drive pvp, but it turned out that this gear loop completely dominates the experience now, to the detriment of the pvp aspect. 


 

 

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11 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

Might as well save your typing, the reality is you're not going to convince very many people on here that Crowfall gameplay should be optimized for solo players, much less ACE

What in the actual custard?  I agree with you...

To the OP, most people agree harvesting is too much but most of the people who play have a context of what is the right way to farm and what isn't and we still want it toned down some.  You notice how I said toned down some, not anything like you're demanding.  I'm a PvPer so I'll need people like Srathor, a dedicated crafter, to make me gear but he's going to need people dedicated to harvesting to get it.  With VIP I can be that trained harvester, for one aspect of what I will need.  A division of labor is needed for sustainability and you don't have that running solo.  A plan and decent map of where poorly made socks is, which again you don't have that.  A team to do motherloads.  A gravedigger/necro team for farming/pvp/crafting vessels.  An alchemist to help everybody.  A jewelcrafter.  A runemaker for tools and eventually disciplines.  You get where I am going with this?  You need a guild. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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This has been discussed quite a bit in other threads, but I'll post here what I posted there.

The reason harvesting feels like such a chore is because people are trying to do everything themselves. This is caused by two things: low population and fast training. That is going to change as the population increases and they slow down the training, which will force people to specialize more.

When the population is larger and the game is more complete, people will have to fill certain roles. Some will be harvesters, some will be crafters and some will be combatants. If you want to PvP all day and do nothing else, go for it. You will be able to. You can do it now, if you really want to. You could kill mobs for gold and buy stuff. You can kill other players, take their stuff, and use that to get what you need. You could harvest, sell the resources and buy what you need. You could buy resources and craft what you need.

It's up to you, but you've got to understand that no player is an island. Both crafting and harvesting are meant to be every bit as important as combat. The entire point of the game is to fight over resources. If you trivialize harvesting, you take out the major reason to fight.

Make friends. Work together. The game will feel a lot better if you do.

Edited by Arkade

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A lot of Eve was gathering.  I dont have a problem with that.  In CF you kill some spiders to get gold, crafting mats and exp.  Gather some ore to build armor and weapons.  I think the place where people get frustrated is that they dont see enough progression for the all the time spent.  There should be more things to make and acquire.

You need some basic stuff to fill all of your armor and jewelry slots for running around gear.  There should probably be some meaningful upgrades that can be done to that basic gear to make it better.  The same thing with intermediate arms and armor.  It takes a good chunk of playing time to gather the materials for advanced gear.  It takes a good chunk of time for crafters to sit down and make that gear.  

I would just like some more options.  There should probably be more armor recipes or at least some less time consuming ways to get and keep people in armor.  

 

 


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Hello Beandip, I am a new player that started about a month ago. I've seen all of your posts come up and I've been in-game at various times when you are going at with other players in chat. I think your experience is being affected by many variables, some of which are within your control, and others that are not.

Gearing Up:

You have made it clear that your interest is first in PvP, second in anything else. As a new player with those interests in most MMOs you can farm some noob friendly mobs with noob gear, go buy some decent gear, then move up to the next level of mobs & gear, and repeat until you feel 'strong' enough to fight other players.

In Crowfall that cycle is replaced by two options, gather/craft your own gear or farm gold from mobs to buy gear. My understanding is that White (Common) gear has the same base values on stats as the Green/Blue/etc just with less durability. [somebody correct me if I'm wrong please] This means to me that it won't take long to get gear on the same stat level of the veteran players.

Within your Control

  • Since you like to kill things, craft some basic gear, and go farm mobs for gold. Farm in safer out of the way areas, learn how your skills work while farming, and change to a different race/class if you don't like the playstyle.
  • Find the big market EKs and/or crafters who will sell you gear for gold and buy the higher tier stuff.

Not within your Control

  • Game state is pre-alpha so the economy features are mostly non-existant.

Regarding the Rest:

It is abundantly clear that you did not research Crowfall well before joining the pre-alpha, it is also clear that you have not played a Sandbox MMO before.

When you are not knowledgeable about the direction/design of the game and you make suggestions that run counter to it, people are not going to listen. When you assume that all players experience is the same as yours you will get push back from everyone else. You should always keep in mind the current development state of the game. A 'pre-alpha' game is no where near what even an 'open-beta' game is.

Just a bit of advise, players are not lead around by the hands in this type of game. If you are not spending your time in-game on something you enjoy then you should change what you are doing. If you like what you are doing but aren't getting enough out of it then you should change how you are doing it. If you can't make these adjustments you will not enjoy the game.  

 

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18 minutes ago, Brevalear said:

In Crowfall that cycle is replaced by two options, gather/craft your own gear or farm gold from mobs to buy gear. My understanding is that White (Common) gear has the same base values on stats as the Green/Blue/etc just with less durability. [somebody correct me if I'm wrong please] This means to me that it won't take long to get gear on the same stat level of the veteran players.

Common gear has the same base values as Uncommon, Rare, Epic and Legendary. The difference is that each higher quality allows for more experimentation. However, there are only so many pips to spend. For example, when doing the final combine on a 1-handed axe, there are 3 things that can be experimented on: Sheen, Damage and Durability. Sheen increases the stats on the weapon, and damage and durability obviously increase the damage and durability, respectively. A Common quality axe will only allow up to 6 pips to be spent on each of those lines, for a total of 18. But crafters only have 14, maybe 15 pips, at most. So even on a Common quality axe, you can't totally experiment on everything. An Uncommon quality axe would have 7 pip slots per line, for a total of 21. Rare is 8, Epic is 9 and Legendary is 10. Basically, the higher quality allows you to focus on one particular experimentation line to a higher degree. For weapons, that will generally be the damage. Spending 10 pips on damage for a legendary axe will produce significantly better results than spending 6 pips on a common quality axe.

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1 minute ago, Arkade said:

Common gear has the same base values as Uncommon, Rare, Epic and Legendary. The difference is that each higher quality allows for more experimentation. However, there are only so many pips to spend. For example, when doing the final combine on a 1-handed axe, there are 3 things that can be experimented on: Sheen, Damage and Durability. Sheen increases the stats on the weapon, and damage and durability obviously increase the damage and durability, respectively. A Common quality axe will only allow up to 6 pips to be spent on each of those lines, for a total of 18. But crafters only have 14, maybe 15 pips, at most. So even on a Common quality axe, you can't totally experiment on everything. An Uncommon quality axe would have 7 pip slots per line, for a total of 21. Rare is 8, Epic is 9 and Legendary is 10. Basically, the higher quality allows you to focus on one particular experimentation line to a higher degree. For weapons, that will generally be the damage. Spending 10 pips on damage for a legendary axe will produce significantly better results than spending 6 pips on a common quality axe.

They also have not settled on the final counts for pips. 

That is an up in the air thing, so it could be possible to see low quality cap below 18, or players to have ways to get over 15 pips.

 

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16 hours ago, ShadowwBoi13 said:

This issue could easily be solved by disabling exporting untill the final few days of a campaign and increasing the size of the chests in the beachhead/forts/keep to be somewhat comparable with the spirit banks size (possibly even having larger chests in the forts and an even larger one in the keep *See Lower Portion for continuation of this idea*) so people can actually store their materials.

The reason it feels like the game revolves around harvesting is because, harvesters spend their time harvesting and banking full stacks (or for people who dont understand imports/exports, banking non full stacks). Because of this, when harvesters actually get ganked, they rarely have many resources, and if they do have a descent amount they try to run and bank stuff on the fly until they die, which means the PvPers arent getting the massive hauls of free mats they are supposed to gain from ganking unprepared harvesters.

Then if some PvPers protect their harvester, in 90% of cases no one will try and pick because most people only pick on harvesters because they cant really fight back, so the PvPers just sit there waiting for their harvester to harvest because most people are to scared to confront them, meaning they dont get any PvP at that point either.

And the crafters either are also the harvesters, or are just waiting for harvesters to complete harvesting loops to come drop off some mats so that the crafters can start crafting.

***
Now onto the chest conversation, if they did restrict exports to the end of campaigns, then they should double the size of Crypt and Beach Head Chests (compared to current size), 4x or 6x the size of the inventory for chests in the fort, and making the Keeps storage size be equal to the size of a spirit bank. Then remove the Recovery banks from the beachhead.

This will also solve the problem of making the Structures worth fighting over, because 1) you get more places to store all these mats you keep gathering and 2) if you have all your ore stored in brookhurst and you need some ore but an enemy owns brook, then your group needs to go take over brook so you can get your mats back.

 

...I lost track of where i was going with all this so imma just leave this here as is

 

I would love to see imports/export banks only accessible at the crypts.

The banksize issue has been brought up in the dev forums, it's on the list to address, somewhere down the line. 


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