ramshack

Skill Point System Pretty Underwhelming

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The current skill point system seems very inefficient and poorly designed. Having to acrew points in individual tree's is pretty silly. This leaves players with stock piles of points earned in trees that wont be able to spend elsewhere.

There should be 1 set of learning points or skill points per tree that can be spent on any of the subsequent sub groups. Training Sylvan? All those points should be able to go towards sylvan, elf, fairy etc. Each sub group shouldnt earn it's own pool.

Additionally there is no benefit to cross training. There should be nodes in all brackets that benefit other brackets even if marginally. This encourages branching out and doesn't hurt those who want variety over specialization.

Finally why are there crafting and gathering bonuses in racial and class trees. This is pidgeon holing people into certain play styles and character choices and removes away from making unique characters.

 

And as a side note, this is just me, not everything on each tree should be obtainable. Making interesting choices about your character is what makes games interesting. Everyone just getting the same bonuses to everything means everyone is the same and there is nothing interesting or unique about your character.

Overall is a very clunky and inefficient design. It failed to achieve the stream line time based progression of Eve and the interesting feat and advancement choices of other games.

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Posted (edited)

i spent over 400 gold respecing in WoW due to the desire to experiment with unique talents that affect combat.

it is highly addicting and desired featured of games.

 

also i think devs have not touched on inflation yet.  there is no way to decrease gold amount in economy besides leveling.

Edited by beandip

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1 hour ago, ramshack said:

The current skill point system seems very inefficient and poorly designed. Having to acrew points in individual tree's is pretty silly. This leaves players with stock piles of points earned in trees that wont be able to spend elsewhere.

There should be 1 set of learning points or skill points per tree that can be spent on any of the subsequent sub groups. Training Sylvan? All those points should be able to go towards sylvan, elf, fairy etc. Each sub group shouldnt earn it's own pool.

Additionally there is no benefit to cross training. There should be nodes in all brackets that benefit other brackets even if marginally. This encourages branching out and doesn't hurt those who want variety over specialization.

Finally why are there crafting and gathering bonuses in racial and class trees. This is pidgeon holing people into certain play styles and character choices and removes away from making unique characters.

 

And as a side note, this is just me, not everything on each tree should be obtainable. Making interesting choices about your character is what makes games interesting. Everyone just getting the same bonuses to everything means everyone is the same and there is nothing interesting or unique about your character.

Overall is a very clunky and inefficient design. It failed to achieve the stream line time based progression of Eve and the interesting feat and advancement choices of other games.

 

There are no crafting or gathering bonuses in class skill trees, IIRC.

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Posted (edited)

This and more has been brought up since the 1st training version went online years ago.

Basically choose your race/class preference, gather/craft/pvp preference and train to full. End up like anyone that does the same without any variation beyond not training to full and moving on to something else.

IMO, due to the shallow design and the addition of Vessel levelings (Passive training was supposed to remove much of the need to actively grind progression), character customizing would be better off without passive training. With vessels, gear, disciplines, and hopefully advantages/disadvantages, there is plenty of in-game active choices to build a character. Similar things could of been done with crafting and harvesting.

They replaced traditional level/stat grinding with passive waiting. Same vertical stat climb and power gap from new and old players.

Should of just made the full leap and done away with such things, especially with the addition of Vessel levelings and other active progressions they might add.

Something like EVE's system would of been a lot more interesting and less redundant.

Not sure if the lore supports it, but seems rather silly that a ghostly spirt crow creature can train strength or wood chop skills that only apply when they inhabit a particular race.

Edited by APE

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4 hours ago, ramshack said:

Finally why are there crafting and gathering bonuses in racial and class trees. This is pidgeon holing people into certain play styles and character choices and removes away from making unique characters.

There are caps on all the crafting and gathering bonuses, so choosing to train it in the racial tree would help you get to the caps faster, or give an alternate path to the cap. It's not intended to force you to choose that race to be "better".

4 hours ago, ramshack said:

stream line time based progression of EVE

What is it you like specifically about the EVE system?

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Ahh this debate again. Again I'll say: cutomization doesnt happen in skill trees.

The customization and "respecing" you guys want in this game are your race and your disciplines. The passive system is, well, its passive. Its boring and it's just like leveling up in another game, but its impact on gameplay will be far less than level disparity in other games

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11 hours ago, beandip said:

also i think devs have not touched on inflation yet.  there is no way to decrease gold amount in economy besides leveling.

Except taxes on land and vendors

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Posted (edited)

It is pretty underwhelming.  The last parts of trees are gone now so hopefully they will come back with more prestige promotions like they did in the first skill iteration.  It doesn't need to be now either, take your time and do that poorly made socks right ace. 

Edited by mandalore

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Posted (edited)
On 6/28/2018 at 10:38 PM, miraluna said:

What is it you like specifically about the EVE system?

I didn't play EVE but from what I've seen, training is a lot more interconnected. Pre-Reqs lead to multiple paths that lead to multiple paths and so on.

Crowfall's system is very linear and basically the more choices you make, the fewer you have in the future that work with the previous.

Also a lot of redundant or duplicate training that has to be done for each race/class/weapon/craft/harvest line.

CF's system is straight forward and leaves little room or need to plan out long term. Looking at EVE, I know I'd need a training planner and some thought into where I want to go, be it from the start or over time. Hardest choice in CF? Do I train rock banging or grave digging, elf or human, cleric or ranger, etc. 

While ships and races/classes are different, the addition of the crow/vessel design could of gone in a similar path as EVE.

Some might like the simplicity but leaves a lot to be desired for those that like this type of stuff. In-game customizing allows more but doesn't really make up for it. Vessels/gear are basically just stat boosters, advantages/disadvantages if they ever exist might be the same, leaving disciplines as the most customizing we make. Allowing us to use different passives/abilities on the bar.

Honestly don't get why they didn't try to make it a wee bit more interesting, especially with EVE and other games providing a blueprint for inspiration.

On 6/29/2018 at 6:10 AM, Jjusticar said:

Ahh this debate again. Again I'll say: cutomization doesnt happen in skill trees.

The customization and "respecing" you guys want in this game are your race and your disciplines. The passive system is, well, its passive. Its boring and it's just like leveling up in another game, but its impact on gameplay will be far less than level disparity in other games

This is why I don't see a point to them spending so much time/resources on it. It's still a WIP and years later is still boring, lacks any real thought requirement, and for the most part doesn't do anything beyond boost stats and unlock recipes for crafting.

They've been working on it since the start and I assume put in a decent amount of time/resources to end up with something that is rather unnecessary. I understand why people expect more out of it considering almost every other game with "training" has a more interesting system and the KS sort of sold it as more than it is as well.

Unfortunate that they have it at all and or didn't go in a different direction.

Race choices don't make a drastic difference in play style or performance, no different than any other game. Gear/Vessels provide stats. Disciplines are the one meaningful way to make a character our own. While I'm sure we'll see some interesting builds, likely a few will rise to the top for a period and the meta will keep variety down. Will have to see how it goes though.

Edited by APE

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23 minutes ago, APE said:

This is why I don't see a point to them spending so much time/resources on it. It's still a WIP and years later is still boring, lacks any real thought requirement, and for the most part doesn't do anything beyond boost stats and unlock recipes for crafting.

They've been working on it since the start and I assume put in a decent amount of time/resources to end up with something that is rather unnecessary. I understand why people expect more out of it considering almost every other game with "training" has a more interesting system and the KS sort of sold it as more than it is as well.

Unfortunate that they have it at all and or didn't go in a different direction.

Race choices don't make a drastic difference in play style or performance, no different than any other game. Gear/Vessels provide stats. Disciplines are the one meaningful way to make a character our own. While I'm sure we'll see some interesting builds, likely a few will rise to the top for a period and the meta will keep variety down. Will have to see how it goes though.

Ya, im take it or leave it on the skill system atm. Maybe they have ideas for it, idk. 

Either way, I really hope plentiful advantages/disadvantages and many more disciplines are added. Even with the amount now I don't think there is sufficient amount for what I'd like. 

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4 hours ago, APE said:

Looking at EVE, I know I'd need a training planner and some thought into where I want to go, be it from the start or over time.

I played EVE for about 6 months. When I started, I was playing with a small group of friends that were veteran EVE players and they gave me a training plan for getting into a decent ship for pvp/pve as fast as possible (Drake). I definitely prefer the passive over-time style vs repetitive grinding XP levels in other games. But my overall impression of the EVE system is that it was way too easy for a newer player to make mistakes, and waste huge amounts of time (months) on un-optimal skills. Most of the training was about unlocking different types of ships, and being able to use optimal fittings for those ships. So collecting more and more spaceship skills is kinda where they lost me :P, it's just not my thing.

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40 minutes ago, miraluna said:

I played EVE for about 6 months. When I started, I was playing with a small group of friends that were veteran EVE players and they gave me a training plan for getting into a decent ship for pvp/pve as fast as possible (Drake). I definitely prefer the passive over-time style vs repetitive grinding XP levels in other games. But my overall impression of the EVE system is that it was way too easy for a newer player to make mistakes, and waste huge amounts of time (months) on un-optimal skills. Most of the training was about unlocking different types of ships, and being able to use optimal fittings for those ships. So collecting more and more spaceship skills is kinda where they lost me :P, it's just not my thing.

Ya it definitely caters to a particular crowd and likely a reason that EVE has gone on for so long. Guess I'd rather have something overly complex that allows me to make mistakes vs boring linear no choice is really that important, just different flavors to choose from. Although forms of respecs or ways to self correct don't hurt either, which EVE added in at some point, which also come with costs as well.

Don't believe I've seen anyone seriously defend or support what ACE is doing. There are those that don't like it, want it to be something it isn't, and those that are indifferent. To me that isn't great game design. Passive training might be running in the background and sort of click and forget, but it is a rather foundation feature that everyone has to do and for it to be "meh" is unfortunate.

 

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If you haven't played EVE for a significant period of time, I wouldn't use it as a reference point. I've been playing EVE off and on since 2007.

The ship:vessel similarity between CF and EVE is there, as well as passive training, but there are a lot of things that EVE does differently that is important.

For instance, there are areas players can go in EVE to seek out fights where they are on a somewhat more even level to other players, ie. ship size/type. There are also varying degrees of "Security" throughout Empire space.

Neither of those systems exist in CF, and so the experience of players in CF with little training is vastly different. For the most part, they are useless fodder unless they can get instant geared up with high level gear. Again something else different about CF and EVE - EVE online gates access to better gear by passive skill training. To use the most powerful ships requires years of training. Though now you can use skill point injectors to speed that up tremendously.

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1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

If you haven't played EVE for a significant period of time, I wouldn't use it as a reference point. I've been playing EVE off and on since 2007.

The ship:vessel similarity between CF and EVE is there, as well as passive training, but there are a lot of things that EVE does differently that is important.

For instance, there are areas players can go in EVE to seek out fights where they are on a somewhat more even level to other players, ie. ship size/type. There are also varying degrees of "Security" throughout Empire space.

Neither of those systems exist in CF, and so the experience of players in CF with little training is vastly different. For the most part, they are useless fodder unless they can get instant geared up with high level gear. Again something else different about CF and EVE - EVE online gates access to better gear by passive skill training. To use the most powerful ships requires years of training. Though now you can use skill point injectors to speed that up tremendously.

I still have 3 active Eve accounts. And I'm not saying it's a perfect system. But it is clean, there are decisions to make about progression. At no point am I left with skill points that are unuseable in tree's that are now 100% maxed. If somehow a skill is removed or changed those points get put back into my queue and can be applied to any available skill. When I heard there was going be passive training in Crowfall I was really excited. But they haven't gated any access it's just the same like 10 feats randomly mixed together in a tree that anyone can eventually get.

 

It would have been very cool get like combat basics. then Weapons, Armor, Magic then in Weapons it's Melee and Ranged, then in Melee its Swords, Axes, Hammers, Daggers, Spears then in 1HSwords, or 2h Swords, pick 1h, then it's Short Sword, Long Sword, Rapier, Broadsword,etc then from their it's Broadsword Specialization. And each skill gives you a bonus for everything in the tier below it, Combat basics effects and boosts all weapons, melee boosts all melee weapons, 1h boosts all 1h weapons, 1h swords boosts all 1 swords, broadswords boosts all broadswords, broadsword specialization is the pinnacle of being trained and utilizing broadswords.

Each skill could give a bonus to Raw Damage, or Stamina use while using that weapon, plus grants access to wield high level and better quality versions of each weapon.

The whole system now is really silly and strange. Stats which should be earned by leveling and skilling up are tied to your race and passive trees.

The best part of Shadowbane was the character selection. Which races give me the most desired stats, discpline options, has room for supplemental stat runes. Now there is no real choice.

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1 hour ago, ramshack said:

It would have been very cool get like combat basics. then Weapons, Armor, Magic then in Weapons it's Melee and Ranged, then in Melee its Swords, Axes, Hammers, Daggers, Spears then in 1HSwords, or 2h Swords, pick 1h, then it's Short Sword, Long Sword, Rapier, Broadsword,etc then from their it's Broadsword Specialization. And each skill gives you a bonus for everything in the tier below it, Combat basics effects and boosts all weapons, melee boosts all melee weapons, 1h boosts all 1h weapons, 1h swords boosts all 1 swords, broadswords boosts all broadswords, broadsword specialization is the pinnacle of being trained and utilizing broadswords.

Except this is how it is...minus the last round of specialization. It goes all the way down to 1h-melee, etc. Which will take plenty of time when we don't have 10x training.....

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3 hours ago, Jjusticar said:

Except this is how it is...minus the last round of specialization. It goes all the way down to 1h-melee, etc. Which will take plenty of time when we don't have 10x training.....

Actually, it goes all the way to specialization in specific weapon types. Take a look at the branches inside the One-hand Melee.tree. It literally works exactly as he said he wants it to.

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Just a "Gut Feeling" - Betting they realize this and a complete SCRAPPING of this mess is due

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I feel like they treat this system as something they promised to people so they can clearly say they are an mmo with permanent progression and not some kind off drawn out moba, this seemed really important to them in the past. However I agree that I can't see this system be fun or useful in any way at this point it almost feels like it is just there because it can be monetized easily. I agree that it should probably go because it is needlessly increasing the scope of the game while only affecting it negatively but I feel like at this point they are dead set on keeping it.

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On 6/28/2018 at 8:37 PM, ramshack said:

The current skill point system seems very inefficient and poorly designed. Having to acrew points in individual tree's is pretty silly. This leaves players with stock piles of points earned in trees that wont be able to spend elsewhere.

There should be 1 set of learning points or skill points per tree that can be spent on any of the subsequent sub groups. Training Sylvan? All those points should be able to go towards sylvan, elf, fairy etc. Each sub group shouldnt earn it's own pool.

Additionally there is no benefit to cross training. There should be nodes in all brackets that benefit other brackets even if marginally. This encourages branching out and doesn't hurt those who want variety over specialization.

Finally why are there crafting and gathering bonuses in racial and class trees. This is pidgeon holing people into certain play styles and character choices and removes away from making unique characters.

 

And as a side note, this is just me, not everything on each tree should be obtainable. Making interesting choices about your character is what makes games interesting. Everyone just getting the same bonuses to everything means everyone is the same and there is nothing interesting or unique about your character.

Overall is a very clunky and inefficient design. It failed to achieve the stream line time based progression of Eve and the interesting feat and advancement choices of other games.

 Customization of your character doesn't come with skill training comes with your build I.e disciplines , armor and skills you use 

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