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Skill Point System Pretty Underwhelming

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Arkade said:

I guess it depends on your definition of heavily invested. From what we know, weapon disciplines will be pretty easy to obtain, as they will require an advanced weapon of the appropriate type to create. Minor disciplines will be more difficult to obtain, as they will only drop from mobs. Some might be on easy to solo mobs, but some will require groups and those spawns may be contested. Majors will require a thrall, and very likely a specific thrall depending on the major you want to make. Needless to say, people won't be swapping them out they way they do now.

 "Heavily invested"-I guess in this context it would have mean something along the lines of; "What do I have to SACRIFICED for it"?

Really not even close to being and the let's bash it train - I think the game as a whole is turning our to be more than I could have hoped for in general 

Skill tree is just the easy standout that I look at and say "Bleh" - Give me some tough choices; make me sacrifice something to acquire something.......

Edited by Mayhem_

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4 minutes ago, Mayhem_ said:

 "Heavily invested"-I guess in this context it would have mean something along the lines of; "What do I have a SACRIFICED for it"?

You can only take two major disciplines. That means you will have "sacrificed" all of the potential disciplines you could have taken to take the ones you do choose. This is comparable to the kind of trade-offs people often request to be added to the passive training system. You have to make some hard choices and they will decide which powers are unlocked for you.

Also, major disciplines will likely be difficult to obtain. Much like disciplines in Shadowbane, certain runes will be scarce and coveted. You'll have to struggle and compete to get the ones you want.

Given the scarcity of these runes, you can't just replace them whenever you want to switch out powers. Deleting scarce and valuable runes to switch powers will probably not be common. And if you do delete a rune to switch your spec, you will have "sacrificed" for it.

A system for making hard decisions that unlock certain powers will be in Crowfall. It will be in the discipline system, not the passive training system.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Jah said:

You can only take two major disciplines. That means you will have "sacrificed" all of the potential disciplines you could have taken to take the ones you do choose. This is comparable to the kind of trade-offs people often request to be added to the passive training system. You have to make some hard choices and they will decide which powers are unlocked for you.

Also, major disciplines will likely be difficult to obtain. Much like disciplines in Shadowbane, certain runes will be scarce and coveted. You'll have to struggle and compete to get the ones you want.

Given the scarcity of these runes, you can't just replace them whenever you want to switch out powers. Deleting scarce and valuable runes to switch powers will probably not be common. And if you do delete a rune to switch your spec, you will have "sacrificed" for it.

A system for making hard decisions that unlock certain powers will be in Crowfall. It will be in the discipline system, not the passive training system.

 

I hear ya brother and it's far from anything close to like a deal breaker - Just don't see why we can't have a skill tree that "also" has the ability to add "More diversity" 

EDIT:  Even if the Passive system stayed 90% as is would be fine....... if it could just changed the way it trains so linear.   I know it is really going to annoy me when we are no longer on the 10x rate and I have to train 4 pips into a node that will in no way offer/add any value to any vessel I might come up with.

Edited by Mayhem_

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I prefer the Shadowbane skill system much more than this one and agree that the current design is both too linear and too long. If this system stays in place this game will have fewer options than Shadowbane and that is a step back. Adjust or scrap the current system, please. 

Give the player more choices. Either break up the linear paths or change it so some of the skills per each tree do not require pathing. Have some of the pathing block out other choices entirely so there is specialization. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, nomadmerc said:

Give the player more choices. Either break up the linear paths or change it so some of the skills per each tree do not require pathing. Have some of the pathing block out other choices entirely so there is specialization. 

Pretty much. There is no "choice" if you are forced to four pip everything to get where you want. When this training slows down, this will be extremely painful. Not to mention having to train a crafting and harvesting line to train the final node....

Edited by Armegeddon

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1 hour ago, Armegeddon said:

Pretty much. There is no "choice" if you are forced to four pip everything to get where you want. When this training slows down, this will be extremely painful. Not to mention having to train a crafting and harvesting line to train the final node....

+ to that "silliness" 

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2 hours ago, Armegeddon said:

Pretty much. There is no "choice" if you are forced to four pip everything to get where you want. When this training slows down, this will be extremely painful. Not to mention having to train a crafting and harvesting line to train the final node....

^

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16 hours ago, Arkade said:

Minor disciplines will be more difficult to obtain, as they will only drop from mobs. Some might be on easy to solo mobs, but some will require groups and those spawns may be contested. Majors will require a thrall, and very likely a specific thrall depending on the major you want to make.

Guess I missed this. This is confirmed for all minor/major disciplines? I remember something about Thralls and using them to power our items or something, but not that a good deal of actual unique build options would come from killing mobs specifically.

Nothing I enjoy more in a PVP game than having to do PVE to be PVP effective...

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10 hours ago, APE said:

Guess I missed this. This is confirmed for all minor/major disciplines? I remember something about Thralls and using them to power our items or something, but not that a good deal of actual unique build options would come from killing mobs specifically.

Nothing I enjoy more in a PVP game than having to do PVE to be PVP effective...

If you don't want RPG elements in your PvP game you probably should go play something like Overwatch.

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10 hours ago, Jah said:

If you don't want RPG elements in your PvP game you probably should go play something like Overwatch.

Thank you for the heads up. If you like RPG elements you probably should go play WoW... very constructive conversation.

As I mentioned, don't remember seeing disciplines aka potentially the largest system to customize our characters, being tied to killing mobs. Would like to see the dev source for this. Is this just an option or is it THE option?

As someone that wants to focus on combat and exploration/scouting, I don't want to feel obligated or forced to grind mindless AI and hope RNG gods like me.

If others want to and are able to supply everyone's builds, great. However, usually when PVE is presented as the way to get the carrots, players gravitate towards them. Path of least resistance.

Much like another system I don't like, vessel leveling, I just hope there are options. Regardless if I'm obtaining Disciplines or others are doing it for me.

We have passive leveling, active leveling, vessel quality climb, equipment quality climb, map zones, dev provided campaign objectives, homogenized classes, raycast/targetless combat, grinding mobs for resources and from what was mentioned, obtaining some of the way we really make a build our own. Toss in quests and the rails will be ready to ride into the sunset.

I backed this project because of things like this: "I don't want to kill more rats, fill another experience point bar or collect another meaningless badge." - ACE

Clearly things change and have, but I'm still hoping that PVE won't be the the meat and potatoes with PVP as a few drops of gravy.

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1 hour ago, APE said:

Thank you for the heads up. If you like RPG elements you probably should go play WoW... very constructive conversation.

As I mentioned, don't remember seeing disciplines aka potentially the largest system to customize our characters, being tied to killing mobs. Would like to see the dev source for this. Is this just an option or is it THE option?

As someone that wants to focus on combat and exploration/scouting, I don't want to feel obligated or forced to grind mindless AI and hope RNG gods like me.

If others want to and are able to supply everyone's builds, great. However, usually when PVE is presented as the way to get the carrots, players gravitate towards them. Path of least resistance.

Much like another system I don't like, vessel leveling, I just hope there are options. Regardless if I'm obtaining Disciplines or others are doing it for me.

We have passive leveling, active leveling, vessel quality climb, equipment quality climb, map zones, dev provided campaign objectives, homogenized classes, raycast/targetless combat, grinding mobs for resources and from what was mentioned, obtaining some of the way we really make a build our own. Toss in quests and the rails will be ready to ride into the sunset.

I backed this project because of things like this: "I don't want to kill more rats, fill another experience point bar or collect another meaningless badge." - ACE

Clearly things change and have, but I'm still hoping that PVE won't be the the meat and potatoes with PVP as a few drops of gravy.

Crowfall isn't a game where you will pvp 100% of the time like Mobas, Arena Shooters, etc. Every system in the game is dependent on at least one or two other systems to accomplish goals. If all you want to do is pvp you will have to find a guild who deems you worth the cost of mats/discs,. 

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Tbh these are some things that iwanna see in the skill tree rather than just stats bonuses.

general skill tree - Choices in what you take instead of just ill get this first and this later, have points on the skill tree where you can choose one bonus or the other you cant have both, In crafting it may be more experimentation points on one half of the circle and the other half may be higher success chance on experimentation you can have one or the other but not both (These should be swapable aswell so ur not locked in) or combat tree you may get the option between increase dmg or increased range

Class trees - Should boost specific skills in some way not just general stats. So for example this skill may increase your crit chance on said skill by 10% but doesnt affect other skills you can combined this with the above making that said skill a choice between 10% crit chance or 5% Damage bonus on that skill but u cant have both

Race trees - i would like to see some additional racial skills unlocked through the tree maybe allowing different types of dodges and so on

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11 hours ago, APE said:

Thank you for the heads up. If you like RPG elements you probably should go play WoW... very constructive conversation.

As I mentioned, don't remember seeing disciplines aka potentially the largest system to customize our characters, being tied to killing mobs. Would like to see the dev source for this. Is this just an option or is it THE option?

As someone that wants to focus on combat and exploration/scouting, I don't want to feel obligated or forced to grind mindless AI and hope RNG gods like me.

If others want to and are able to supply everyone's builds, great. However, usually when PVE is presented as the way to get the carrots, players gravitate towards them. Path of least resistance.

Much like another system I don't like, vessel leveling, I just hope there are options. Regardless if I'm obtaining Disciplines or others are doing it for me.

We have passive leveling, active leveling, vessel quality climb, equipment quality climb, map zones, dev provided campaign objectives, homogenized classes, raycast/targetless combat, grinding mobs for resources and from what was mentioned, obtaining some of the way we really make a build our own. Toss in quests and the rails will be ready to ride into the sunset.

I backed this project because of things like this: "I don't want to kill more rats, fill another experience point bar or collect another meaningless badge." - ACE

Clearly things change and have, but I'm still hoping that PVE won't be the the meat and potatoes with PVP as a few drops of gravy.

Tag a dev JTC and ask a good solid question.  He typically responds.  He’s also good about responding on Twitter.  

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12 hours ago, Zatch said:

Crowfall isn't a game where you will pvp 100% of the time like Mobas, Arena Shooters, etc. Every system in the game is dependent on at least one or two other systems to accomplish goals. If all you want to do is pvp you will have to find a guild who deems you worth the cost of mats/discs,. 

Thank you. As I clearly stated all I want to do is pvp 100% of the time, this isn't the game for me :rolleyes:

 

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31 minutes ago, APE said:

Thank you. As I clearly stated all I want to do is pvp 100% of the time, this isn't the game for me :rolleyes:

 

Discs being tied to mobs creates a reason for players to go out into the world to fight. The PvE component adds a time sink so the opposition has a window to attack. 

As for the skill trees the easiest way to make skill trees more customizable would be to allow players to progress through the trees picking the nodes they want.  If you want to build an armor pen character you should be able to pick up the armor pen skill nodes and finish the rest of the tree without "wasting" skill training on skills you don't want. Obviously you have to have some form of restrictions, and I would make it so you have to complete half the trees total training value to move to the next. Skill training differentiation for combat trees should eventually lead to unique builds, not everyone being the same. 

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3 minutes ago, Zatch said:

Discs being tied to mobs creates a reason for players to go out into the world to fight. The PvE component adds a time sink so the opposition has a window to attack. 

If players need mobs to have a reason to pvp, ACE has done something wrong.

As I commented above, combat AND exploring/scouting are what I'm looking forward to.

Capturing/defending POIs seems like a fairly important duty, outposts should provide even more opportunity for varying team sizes. Defending Strongholds. Attacking strongholds, be it siege, taking down guards, thralls, crafting stations, weakening walls/gates for future assault etc. Hunting down caravans, harvesters, traders/transporters, to disrupt their day, draw out their team and leave their strongholds less defended, or simply to take them down and get what they have. Along with exploring for map making and other hopefully interesting non-combat related roles. 

All of this would ideally be part of the everyday experience, much is combat related and heavy, but it doesn't need to be stab stab mindlessly 24/7.

My concern is we have combat-harvesting-crafting as main "roles" to train. Mob killing to me falls into the more combat heavy side of things. If I choose to train weapons, will I be expected/required to kill mobs a good chunk of the time? Will harvesters make up the bulk of this work? Will there be a significant difference in TTK between a harvester and combat trained player? Will it need to be a combo of combat+harvesters skinning or whatever to obtain Disciplines resources?

I don't mind doing PVE or non-combat related tasks, but I don't want that to be a huge time sink where I put in X hours a day/week for not much PVP in return. Plenty of games do this and do it well.

When disciplines might allow me to do a particular role better (map making, scouting, sabotage), I don't want it to be highly dependent on RNG loot drops or whatever from hopefully people going out and grinding mobs. I can run around the world with white gear or none even, but if I can't hide, run faster, detect others, etc without Disciplines, this becomes more of an issue in how the multiple systems all play together and which roles are possible.

Find it funny that in a PVP game being a full time harvests or crafters is perfectly fine but it f someone wants to focus on combat that they should go play a MOBA. I missed the "If you want to be a PVPer, expect to do a lot of PVE," sales pitch from ACE.

3 minutes ago, Zatch said:

As for the skill trees the easiest way to make skill trees more customizable would be to allow players to progress through the trees picking the nodes they want.  If you want to build an armor pen character you should be able to pick up the armor pen skill nodes and finish the rest of the tree without "wasting" skill training on skills you don't want. Obviously you have to have some form of restrictions, and I would make it so you have to complete half the trees total training value to move to the next. Skill training differentiation for combat trees should eventually lead to unique builds, not everyone being the same. 

Something like this would be what I prefer, but devs don't seem to agree based on previous comments and what has been provide. But I have some hope as the Class lines are all blank and under construction currently. Maybe we'll see something more creative in the future.

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On 7/14/2018 at 1:56 PM, APE said:

I don't mind doing PVE or non-combat related tasks, but I don't want that to be a huge time sink where I put in X hours a day/week for not much PVP in return. Plenty of games do this and do it well.

 

I don't get how you extrapolate "must find a thrall and put it in a rock to get a major discipline that never decays" or "mobs drop minor discs that you equip three of and they never decay" in to "major time sink"

 

On 7/14/2018 at 1:56 PM, APE said:

When disciplines might allow me to do a particular role better (map making, scouting, sabotage), I don't want it to be highly dependent on RNG loot drops or whatever from hopefully people going out and grinding mobs. I can run around the world with white gear or none even, but if I can't hide, run faster, detect others, etc without Disciplines, this becomes more of an issue in how the multiple systems all play together and which roles are possible.

How does this differ from the entire concept of equipment with stats on it? The entire design of the game is built around being dependent on systems of acquiring material from the world (in the form of mobs or resource deposits or chests) which is highly dependant on the RNG used to generate that world, the RNG on the loot tables, and the RNG of the crafting system all working on concert to ensure you need people with better RNG mitigation than you to fill up all of your equipement slots because no one person can do all of the above at maximum efficiency.

The whole design is built around the idea that in terms of combat efficiency there is always a potentially bigger fish, and that you don't get to just be as mechanically capable as the people you are fighting because you installed the game.

The struggle for resources necessitates something valuable to do with them. In a game about fighting other players, the most valuable thing we can do with them is turn them in to advantages when fighting other players.

Your stance on these issues has been pretty consistant as far as I can tell. You understand that this paradigm is important, you just don't want to be inconvenienced by it. The thing is if you're never inconvenienced by it, neither is anyone else, and the entire model is unsustainable.

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A: Talent points shouldn't be time based. Most of the time I log in, spend points on my skills and logout again. It would be nice if skills could be earned by playing.

B: The skill trees are such a mess. I really don't see a need to skill "same irrelevant crap" ten times in six different trees.

C: Skills should be meaningful and choice should matter.

D: Skills shouldn't be irreversible. Let us reskill bad decisions and give back 25 % of the skillpoints or so.

 

Especially in the TEST environment the skills feel like a burden. We have all the mats and can't do anything with them for the first week.

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Posted (edited)

The passive trees focus shouldn't be about raw power. They look like placeholders, still. Combat professions, scouting, tracking, siege equipment, logistics.

The crow could know how to do all these things. If they aren't doing those activities then skill trees should basically be worthless. Manning a catapult, or being a catapulter could totally be a profession.

There is a seemingly lack of depth with the current system. There should be micro and then macro things to acquire from the skill trees. Increasing my catapult loading speed is something every catapulter is going to want, but if I need 80% of that node to progress into trebuchets, then maybe I'll stop and come back to max it later. Why would a player then want to max out their catapult skills if a the trebuchet is clearly better? Perhaps they are cheaper, making the catapult a poor mans sieger. Now the experienced player has an option, while the newer player can still fill a role of utilizing a lower cost profession.

Different classes adopting different weapons so then crafters could focus their attention onto that role, could be ideal. It's not really going to work if a new player can use all the same stuff an experienced crow could use. Honestly the basic classes should all be some form of damage dealer while the advance classes should take on more of a supportive role. Why?

New players are not going to be focusing on trade offs, they just want to progress their solo abilities(gotta start somewhere.) Advanced roles could be thing like healing, crowd control, stealthing for longer periods of time, and even trading a little PvP capability for hunting monsters. This will give classes a baseline, while the advance classes will be hybrids.

The monster races shouldn't even be playable by new players, managing resources isn't something a newer player is going to do well. Why let them gimp themselves while trying to learn. Let's keep the focus on learning new roles and then deciding to maximize.

Edited by Impossum

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