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RickyP602

Allowing Players To Sell Subs In Game Is P2W

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yo Zeonx, I'm still waiting on your answer!

 

I don't claim to have the answer to solving the blackmarket RMT, but I don't agree with making a legit RMT that leads to pay 2 win/advantage. If I had to make a suggestion though, I would say the Devs need to hire a decent number of GMs to look at transactions that happen in game and flag suspicious ones for further investigations.

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ya, but in AA that apex thing had "multiple uses" because of an innate-delay in the item, which basically generated an infinite amount of credits, which theoretically let you buy unlimited subscription time.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying that AA that a "plex system"

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Except Archeage had rampant duping, hacking and game breaking exploits and you could buy those random loot chests or whatever they were called and trade it to other players etc.

 

That is essentially paying money to generate in game items from thin air. AKA not a PLEX like system.

 

Now, again, name a single MMO with a PLEX like system where the game suffered as a result of that system.

 

Even when multiple people explain how you are wrong you continue to argue the same points. I really don't know how to explain anything to you because you simply refuse to believe anything anyone tells you if it does not line up with your point. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

No I'm not saying you win, no I am not saving face. I am saving myself time because you sir are a waste of it.

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I don't claim to have the answer to solving the blackmarket RMT, but I don't agree with making a legit RMT that leads to pay 2 win/advantage. If I had to make a suggestion though, I would say the Devs need to hire a decent number of GMs to look at transactions that happen in game and flag suspicious ones for further investigations.

 

then all you're saying is, that the chinese should have all the money and not the devs.

 

Imo it's impossible to stop the rmt in a game, unless you disable player trading as a whole.

 

Look at it form an economics standpoint. Might as well cash in.

It's not an elegant solution, but at least the makers of the game profit from it.

 

P2W is present in every single MMO, according to your deifnition.

 

At leats in crowfall I know, I can take away that guy's advantage, unlike in Archeage for example

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then all you're saying is, that the chinese should have all the money and not the devs.

 

Imo it's impossible to stop the rmt in a game, unless you disable player trading as a whole.

 

Look at it form an economics standpoint. Might as well cash in.

It's not an elegant solution, but at least the makers of the game profit from it.

 

P2W is present in every single MMO, according to your deifnition.

 

At leats in crowfall I know, I can take away that guy's advantage, unlike in Archeage for example

I hear what you are saying. But making it legal will increase the number of RMT to win/advantage instances.

 

Making it a ban-able offense would reduce it.

 

I'd rather have fewer people using pay 2 win then more.

 

Again my issue is not with people attaining advantages, my issue is the game condoning and setting up a system where players can turn RL money in to in game advantages. It's the how, not the what.

 

P.S. you can only take away the advantage if it's full loot and if they are carrying everything they have on them, which isn't likely.

Edited by Zeonx

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At leats in crowfall I know, I can take away that guy's advantage, unlike in Archeage for example

 

I think this is a great point. Yes, the ability to spend real money for PLEX and then trade it for resources is an advantage.

 

But how much sweeter will it be to destroy assets that were purchased with real money?

 

I think the potential for (real) loss will act as deterrence enough for this to be an overwhelming concern. 


just an Eldreth

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I hear what you are saying. But making it legal will increase the number of RMT to win/advantage instances.

 

Making it a ban-able offense would reduce it.

 

I'd rather have fewer people using pay 2 win then more.

 

P.S. you can only take away the advantage if it's full loot and if they are carrying everything they have on them, which isn't likely.

 

There are more people buying from gold-sellers than you'd expect. especially in PvP games.

Darkfall os a good example. Many of the guild-leaders *cough* SUN *sough* would buy massive amounts of gold, so they could focus their time on organizing poorly made socks, instead of having to farm like the rest of the plebs.

 

 

and I personally don't care what the pesants on the non-full-loot campaigns do

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ya, but in AA that apex thing had "multiple uses" because of an innate-delay in the item, which basically generated an infinite amount of credits, which theoretically let you buy unlimited subscription time.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying that AA that a "plex system"

 

 

Even when multiple people explain how you are wrong you continue to argue the same points. I really don't know how to explain anything to you because you simply refuse to believe anything anyone tells you if it does not line up with your point. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

No I'm not saying you win, no I am not saving face. I am saving myself time because you sir are a waste of it.

 

Except what I'm talking about is that the only thing the store sells to players is a VIP token like Eve. You're saying a game that let players generate items with real money and let them trade "VIP" subscriptions are the same model as the PLEX system. Which they are not. Not even remotely.

 

You cannot say "The Plex system is bad because people exploited a bug in a completely different system to gain basically infinite wealth". Because that doesn't make sense.

 

Lets redefine the discussion more clearly, because it seems you two have seriously misunderstood.

 

 

  • PLEX like system
    • Defining Features
      • Players can buy a token that is redeemable for a month of game-time subscription
      • Players can trade this item to each other for in game resources
        • In-game resources have to be earned the traditional way by the players looking to buy the token from another player
        • There is no cash shop that generates items that have a gameplay impact.

 

Let me repeat: The archeage system of VIP subscription Trading is a completely different beast because they sold items in game that had a direct impact on gameplay. Crowfall and Eve do not do this thing, and that is why the systems are distinct. Archeage is a failed game because they sold in-game items through the store that impacted gameplay, NOT because they allowed players trade VIP membership.

 

Now lets try again shall we.

 

Name a single MMO with a plex like system as clearly defined as above where the game suffered from the system.

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I think this is a great point. Yes, the ability to spend real money for PLEX and then trade it for resources is an advantage.

 

But how much sweeter will it be to destroy assets that were purchased with real money?

 

I think the potential for (real) loss will act as deterrence enough for this to be an overwhelming concern. 

 

I guess I just have a different view. I would actually hate that clans willing to spend tons of RL money will have their cities built faster then those that won't spend RL money.

 

All because they were able to obtain the resources faster because they paid a few resource farmers with subscription time.

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I am trying to wrap my head around this advantage you are talking about Zeonx.  I'd like to clarify the image I have in my mind of the power of VIP tickets.

 

1)  As far as I know, Devs intend for VIP tickets to be trade-able for ingame items (Like you said, to gain an advantage).

 

2)  Second, VIP tickets do not generate new resources.  All resources obtained through the trade of a VIP ticket was previously extracted by a player ingame and already existed in the game world.

 

You are arguing that VIP tickets should not be trade-able because they offer the players who sell VIP tickets "power" over players who do not.  This is where my line of thinking starts to diverge.

 

From my understand of the game so far (Based on revealed information) strength in Crowfall does not come from items, but numbers.  One fully equipped player can arguably take down two or more naked players, that is true.  But the nature of the game does not offer this scenario.  Crafting looks like a primary activity in Crowfall which allows players to craft weapons and apparel, even if they are not the highest end.

 

Now, if you had a player that was selling tickets all weekend (Like a saturday morning villain, that dastardly shrew), and two players who are not paying a subscription but had their guild friends craft them some respectable weapons and apparel.  It is one against two, the VIP ticket seller won't have any extraordinary strength to take down two players easily.  If those two players are respectable PvPers they should be able to take him down.  The main point of this paragraph is player numbers beat gear.  The Devs have stressed player interaction, what better way to promote it than by giving them the combat advantage if they outnumber the enemy.

 

The following is why I don't see the VIP ticket as a powerful doomsday weapon.  It doesn't give a player items.  It TAKES items from one player, and GIVES THEM to a second player.  The items were already there.  Even if there weren't VIP tickets, the first player would have an "unfair advantage" since, because had there been VIP tickets, the second player who now has those items would have an "unfair advantage".

 

Another dimension of VIP tickets is, who is going to sell?  The VIP ticket seller is there, but will neighboring players give them resources knowing it would put them at a disadvantage?  Players do not need VIP tickets, they can play the game however long they like without the need of tickets.

 

Third reason why I don't see a problem.  Full loot inventory, everything in your inventory is up for grabs in the Campaigns.  If you sell your VIP ticket and get ganked shortly afterwards and get your stuff stolen, would it really give you an advantage?  VIP tickets can be used for  short terms advantage, but gaining a long term item advantage is impossible in a full loot game.


How Can Mounts Add to the Crowfall Experience?  Caravans, Hunting Boars, and more.

 

How Complex can Mining be in Crowfall?  Mining difficulty, fatigue, infrastructure.

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There are more people buying from gold-sellers than you'd expect. especially in PvP games.

Darkfall os a good example. Many of the guild-leaders *cough* SUN *sough* would buy massive amounts of gold, so they could focus their time on organizing poorly made socks, instead of having to farm like the rest of the plebs.

 

 

and I personally don't care what the pesants on the non-full-loot campaigns do

 

I agree screw the carebears, but I still stand by my point  making it legal will increase the number of RMT to win/advantage instances.

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I am trying to wrap my head around this advantage you are talking about Zeonx.  I'd like to clarify the image I have in my mind of the power of VIP tickets.

 

1)  As far as I know, Devs intend for VIP tickets to be trade-able for ingame items (Like you said, to gain an advantage).

 

2)  Second, VIP tickets do not generate new resources.  All resources obtained through the trade of a VIP ticket was previously extracted by a player ingame and already existed in the game world.

 

You are arguing that VIP tickets should not be trade-able because they offer the players who sell VIP tickets "power" over players who do not.  This is where my line of thinking starts to diverge.

 

Think about this. Players A B C D E F and G all start off a campaign farming crazy amounts of resources for city building. Player Z wants to build a City for his clan. Player Z says to players A-G hey I'll give you all VIP for all of the resources you farmed. Players A-G agree because they want VIP but don't want to spend the money on it. Player Z just used RL money to build his city faster than he should have been able to because of RL money.

 

If player Z had to farm other resources to trade players A-G for their city building resources it most likely would have taken much longer.

 

Building up city walls quickly = advantage.

 

Make sense?

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I wouldn't consider it an "I win" button, mainly because there are losses on death. However, the advantage would definitely be bigger on a server like the faction vs faction, where losses aren't near as great. The FFA server, though, it would definitely be worth less, similar to how EVE works, as you run the risk of losing everything anyway. But to say it isn't an advantage is very short-sighted. Of course it'll be an advantage. To be able to consistently (potentially) have the best gear, regardless of dying, is an advantage, for example. We don't know how the building system works either, this may also create an advantage.

 

I don't really care if they allow this VIP ticket, to be honest. It'll be funny to kill someone only to find they had a buttload of them on their person. :P With that said, I hope they don't allow people to simply bank items with no risk. I think then you'd have a bigger issue. I'm not knowledgeable about EVE, but I believe this is one factor that allows PLEX to function well.

Edited by wormed

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I look forward to spending all my money on winning the game.

 

This is why it is pointless to discuss this with you. You are biased. I personally (not trying to sound like a snob) could easily do the same, but in my opinion it cheapens the game experience. Which is why I am so against it.

 

But thank you for admitting the true reasoning behind your point.

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One thing I want to point out when it comes to Archeage vs Crowfall is the gear differences we will see. The mere fact CF is a lootable game and Archeage wasn't is a big difference. Generally gear in AA was more impactful and important than I see CF gear being. If there is any real advantage of trading the VIP voucher to gain some resources/gear comes with the huge risk of loosing it the next time you die or your city burns to the ground. I would actually predict that if it becomes known that a guild builds a city using a big amount of funds coming from being able to trade VIP vouchers that a good portion of the community will want to  and probably burn their crap down.

 

Another thing is going from past experience with lootable games is that gear and resources are generally very replaceable and dispensable with very little actual value. Now I realize this doesn't solve the debate at hand, but I just wanted to point out a few facts on how having them tradeable isn't going to be game breaking, espeically if they go the Eve route. Really it's pure speculation until they actually list out the actual advantages when the game is going to release, but a good idea to debate this all now prior to it.

Edited by sarin

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I don't really care if they allow this VIP ticket, to be honest. It'll be funny to kill someone only to find they had a buttload of them on their person. :P With that said, I hope they don't allow people to simply bank items with no risk. I think then you'd have a bigger issue. I'm not knowledgeable about EVE, but I believe this is one factor that allows PLEX to function well.

 Only issue is no one with a brain will run around with VIP tickets.

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I will go and say they may even limit what in game items could be traded for the VIP vouchers. Maybe they will only allow items that affect the Eternal Kingdoms where there is no "advantages" at when it comes to the real "dying" worlds. Will ahve to wait and see.

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This is why it is pointless to discuss this with you. You are biased. I personally (not trying to sound like a snob) could easily do the same, but in my opinion it cheapens the game experience. Which is why I am so against it.

 

But thank you for admitting the true reasoning behind your point.

 

Thanks for confirming my hypothesis. You are incapable of responding to reasonable posts with any level of credible reasoning or articulate thought. Go for the low hanging fruit, I'll be the bigger man and reach for higher things.

 

It was too easy.

Edited by PotatoMcWhiskey

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I guess I just have a different view. I would actually hate that clans willing to spend tons of RL money will have their cities built faster then those that won't spend RL money.

 

All because they were able to obtain the resources faster because they paid a few resource farmers with subscription time.

 

It's en entirely valid concern. If the game were designed to encourage this overtly, I think it could be problematic, absolutely. 

 

What I'm hoping for is: 

 

Kingdom A is spending significant real money to acquire territory and push out nearby opposing kingdoms.

 

Kingdoms B, C, D and E recognize this, and band together to make them feel the pain. Each building/resource/whatever lost by Kingdom A represents real loss that would need to be replaced with dollars. The other kingdoms comparatively just need to play the game as they have so far in order to replace their losses.

 

This makes it unfeasible for Kingdom A to do this is a protracted engagement. Kingdom A disappears amid good times and much laughter.

 

Coupled with the fact that campaigns will be timed, I think there is enough potential to discourage it from becoming too much of a problem.

Edited by Eldreth

just an Eldreth

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